[mas]

I'm stopped on my AV-3 project, and would appreciate some advice. I have veneered one speaker, but I have some issues with shrinking and cracking of the raw figured sapele veneer I used.  Of the seven seams (one on the top, bottom, back and sides, and two on the front), two have significant splits.  There are several short cracks less then three inches long of similar width (an edgewise piece of veneer, 1/42", just fits into the crack).

I've tested several different wood fillers, and none of them take a stain (three different colors of Elmer's filler and Minwax wood filler), using minwax oil stain (tried golden oak and provincial maple). Has anyone successfully stained wood filler?

Do I have any options other than trying to remove the veneer and starting over? Would it be best to just build another cabinet? 

I  think I will order the Heat Lock adhesive for the next speaker, instead of the Tite bond I used on the first one.

[Cacophonix]

I faced similar problem while veneering my AV/3 as well. I used raw walnut veneer, and ended up with several splits and seams. It was very frustrating to say the least. I then used shellac as a kind of sealer and then tried my hand at french polishing. The result wasn't all that great. I used regular titebond glue and there were several places where the veneer started to bubble. Even after ironing on it several times, it wouldn't stick for more than 15-20 mins. It looks okay as of now ... but no one will ever doubt the fact that this was my first veneering project!
I'm thinking of using heatlock the next time i veneer. Keep us posted on what you find. Iam flirting with the idea of using low-odor contact cement as well. I'll try a few samples before deciding on anything.

Btw, how does one remove a veneer after it has been applied?

[zacster]

Welcome to the most difficult part of speaker building. 

I've done three projects with veneer at this point and my first and last ones worked.  The middle project used raw figured maple and was a disaster.  The method I used is to apply titebond I to both side and let it dry to a shine, then slowly and carefully apply heat.  What I found though is the maple had enough moisture in it that it would shrink when the iron was applied.  The next project used Australian Lacewood and while I used the same method, I also sprayed water over it as I went, but I think that the wood itself just worked better.  3 years later I haven't had a single problem with that last job.  The maple continues to crack.

To repair the maple I would cut out a small piece around the crack to get straight sides and then match as best I can a piece of the remaining scrap to the hole and iron it on.  Getting the cut piece off can be a problem, as will trying to remove the veneer from a box.  I have one box sitting in my basement where I attempted to do this and it just doesn't come off easily.  You may be able to sand it off but it would take a lot of sandpaper as the glue layer will ruin the sheets.

My fourth speaker project used pre-made boxes from PartsExpress and a MBOW1 kit from Danny.  Much easier.

[slksc]

I don't know how to fix those cracks.  But if wood filler doesn't pick up stain like the regular veneer, you could go to Home Depot or Lowes and pick up one of those stain pens which might come close to matching your regular stain.  I use those for small touch-ups and they work pretty well as long as the spot or crack isn't too big.

I just finished veneering the six kits I got in Danny's package deal and I had great success with the no-bubble veneer from Oakwood.  It's more pricey than standard paper-backed veneer, but it's thicker and pretty easy to work with.  No problems with bubbles at all.  I used three coats of contact cement gel on each surface to get good adhesion without ironing.

[Christof]

Mas

Look here for the filler you need.  Make sure you use type I glue not type II, which takes more heat to set. Or order the HeatLock glue as you mentioned.  The wood you are using does not react well to heat.  If you continue to have problems I suggest you preheat the veneer with a heat gun or hair dryer to remove excess moisture before ironing it, this will help with shrinkage problems a little.

[Hank]

The veneer problems that I've read most about, concern using raw, unbacked veneer  .  My advice is to always use paper-backed veneer.  There are more expensive veneers (wood-backed, NBL, etc), but paper-backed has always worked for me and I've almost always used contact cement.  I do have HeatLock adhesive on order for my current towers that I'm veneering in quarter-sawn figured Makore (paper-backed, of course).   I've never used the carpenter's glue iron-on method.  It just doesn't sound quite right.  That kind of glue will not completely harden, I don't think.  I know, some guys have had good success with it.
Do try that professional wood filler - expensive, but it should blend in fairly good.

[mas]

Thanks all for the feedback.  I really appreciate your responses.

Cacophonix and zacster, thanks, your posts made feel less like a complete idiot! Like Zacster, I have had some success on patching the  wider cracks by cutting additional veneer to size. The remaining seams are too narrow to fit. I might try a router with a straight bit to just take up the veneer along a straight line, which would then be wide enough to apply a patch.   

Cristof, I am using titebond I. If I stick with this method, I guess I should pre-iron the pieces of veneer before trimming and taping them together. I have noticed this wood chips very easily on the edges. I think I need veneer softener, because even though a raw piece of veneer bent easily around the 5/8” roundover, the fully taped, glue-laden veneer sheet had a few cracks when I applied to the cabinet. The softener might also help with the chipping. I've seen the softener at Rockler's.

Sklsc, I like the idea of the stain pen, or even some oil-based paint to try and match the stain. I’m thinking that probably won’t be best though, because even with a perfect color match the lack of grain matching will highlight the filler. If that doesn’t work, I will try router a straight strip for a repair patch. If that fails I will build another cabinet.

Hank and sklsc, I knew raw would be harder than backed, but it’s so much less expensive – I paid $32 for 65 sq ft of figured sapele.  I’d like to learn how to do this right, on the A/V-3’s, so when I build my OB-5’s they will look as good as I expect them to sound. 

 
Hank, doesn’t HeatLock use a heated iron to activate the adhesive?    Also, I have read that contact cement softens if the speaker is in direct sunlight.  If that isn’t true, I think the contact cement would be better because the heat would not cause the shrinking I experienced with the iron on method.  Any reason contact cement can’t be used with raw veneer? Also, can contact cement be used in conjunction with sealing the mdf edges with a water/pva mixture?

[Christof]

Also, I have read that contact cement softens if the speaker is in direct sunlight.  If that isn’t true, I think the contact cement would be better because the heat would not cause the shrinking I experienced with the iron on method.  Any reason contact cement can’t be used with raw veneer?

It will not work. 

Hank and sklsc, I knew raw would be harder than backed, but it’s so much less expensive – I paid $32 for 65 sq ft of figured sapele.  I’d like to learn how to do this right, on the A/V-3’s, so when I build my OB-5’s they will look as good as I expect them to sound.

If you plan to build more cabs just buy a cheap veneer bag and vacuum press from Tape Ease for less than $300, the 4x5 or 5x5 or whatever the "starter kit" is.  It's very ease to do, there is no need for expensive paper backed with a bag and I would be willing to bet you could turn around and sell the vacuum kit right here after you are finished for $200.  Is it worth $100 to you so you can do it the right way?  

[Daygloworange]

Quote
Also, I have read that contact cement softens if the speaker is in direct sunlight.  If that isn’t true, I think the contact cement would be better because the heat would not cause the shrinking I experienced with the iron on method.  Any reason contact cement can’t be used with raw veneer?

It will not work.

Most people recommend against using contact cement with raw veneers, although I don't remember all the reasons why. I had used contact with raw veneers years and years ago without failure, but that might be the exception and not the rule. The one tricky part was finishing it by spraying. The solvents in the finish seep through the veneer and start to soften the contact cement.

Using the iron on method, you are doing a couple of things. You're adding moisture with the PVA glue, and then heating the veneer to apply it, thereby evaporating a lot of moisture in the veneer very rapidly, but there is still some moisture in the MDF from the glue, and still in the glue itself before it fully dries. If you had just glued the veneer by pressure alone without heat (not practical as you are wrapping around the enclosure), you might not have experienced the splitting you described. Although, splitting is caused by wood losing it's moisture and the subsequent shrinking of the cell walls causes the wood to pull apart into cracks. Tough call on what the remedy is in your situation. Some veneers are more prone to cracking than others.

Also, I have read that contact cement softens if the speaker is in direct sunlight.

Probably highly unlikely. I've never seen anything like that happen. Once contact cures, it gets very hard. I might test that theory though, just for kicks.

If you plan to build more cabs just buy a cheap veneer bag and vacuum press from Tape Ease for less than $300, the 4x5 or 5x5 or whatever the "starter kit" is.  It's very ease to do, there is no need for expensive paper backed with a bag and I would be willing to bet you could turn around and sell the vacuum kit right here after you are finished for $200.  Is it worth $100 to you so you can do it the right way?

For flat panels, or cabinet sides that you do one at a time, that works well. For doing a fully wrapped enclosure, that could be really difficult, if not near impossible. Especially if you don't have a lot of experience vacuum pressing. I wouldn't recommend it.

Cheers

[S Clark]

 "Any reason contact cement can’t be used with raw veneer?"

"It will not work. "- Christof



Why won't it work? What are the problems?

[RAW]

I agree with Chris but disagree

With contact cement you can iron it on the same as the heat and bond from Joe Woodworker.
We have used this method for several years.

You can apply contact cement onto the veneer and let it sit for months and when ready put contact on thecabinets and let that dry as well.A few hours will do but this can be done after a few days no big deal.

Let the contact cement dry 100% then place your veneer in place and iron it on.Piece of cake.If you have to walk away for afew minutes hours or days do so.Just remeber to shut off the iron

Now for the real wood veneers.We have done several sapele HT3 plus line arrays with real wood veneer and the method I just mentioned using contact cement.
Below is a sub cabinet we did for Danny for RMAF


Last was a figured Makore which all were done using real wood veneer the same method also for Danny for a RMAF a few years ago.



Here was our Lambda plus which was at RMAF afew years ago.




The trick with using heat for veneer.
All depending on the species of veneer the method will work or not work(form cracks)

A vacuum press can be purchased as Chris noted for a deal, if you look around.
Heck I got one with a custom bag 52X142 off EBay.

You sitting down
Including shipping to Canada from down south $79.00

The press is the best way but you cando theveneer with other methods which will work as well.

[Christof]

Mas

I guess this goes to show that there are many different methods in working with wood and as long as your method does not fail and you keep all your fingers than you have done it right.  I would caution against using a non rigid glue such as c.c on raw veneer but Dayglo said used it without fail so there you go and if I read correct Al used it without fail as well. Search the internet and you will find all the good , bad and ugly stories about veneer/glue.  Whatever you do, enjoy your work.

Here is a good thread started by a speaker builder at Woodweb: http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Veneering_Speaker_Boxes.html

-c.

[mas]

I've finished the first speaker. Here are a few pictures. I am very happy with the way it turned out.

First coat:


After four coats:




 Through trial and error, I ended up using provincial stain with Elmer's dark maple colored filler. I also tried golden oak, walnut, and cherry. I learned that I should have checked the color match in natural lighting rather than the fluorescent lighting in the workshop, but I still got a pretty good match between the stained filler and veneer. I will try to find a stain pen that covers some of the blems that remain.

For the next speaker, I will use pretty much the same approach (Titebond I iron on), but use veneer conditioner to ease the cracking when bending around the sides.

Thanks again to everyone for their input.

[RAW]

Nice work.
They look great.

[Danny Richie]

Wow, those look really good.

[Daygloworange]

Very nice. 

Cheers

[slksc]

Nice job.  I'm glad to see you found a solution for your cracks.

[mas]

I finished the second A/V-3. As I said I would do, I pre-heated the pieces of veneer with an iron before trimming. The pre-heated veneer chipped and splintered more than on the first speaker, so I ended up having to add one more section. After taping the trimmed pieces together,  I used veneer softener to make the veneer bend easier. Doing those two changes resulted in much tighter fit, reduced cracking, and much better adherence of the veneer to the cabinet. 

A new problem surfaced however. The bookmatched pieces did not stain uniformly as they  did on the first speaker. The pieces of veneer are  alternately light and dark (see the second picture below).  Another problem is that I can still see residue of the veneer tape (not picked up by the photos). I used TSP and it looked clean before stain, but next time I will use mineral spirits to clean up.   

Before anyone tells me to used paper backed, remember I got this veneer for $25! I actually have enough left over to do my OB-5's, but I think I am going to use birdseye maple instead, since it is an non-endangered native wood.

All in all, a great learning experience.

Here is a picture of my second speaker in location:

[Bill A]

A new problem surfaced however. The bookmatched pieces did not stain uniformly as they  did on the first speaker. The pieces of veneer are  alternately light and dark (see the second picture below).

This is not a problem you caused, it is caused by the the lay of the wood grain.  When the book match was made, the veneer pieces did not just slide over to make the piece wider, but rather they opened like a book.  In doing so, the grain direction flopped 180 degrees.

If you change the direction of the light or flip the cab upside down, you should the light and dark area reverse.

Very nice job, BTW.

Bill

[Rocket]

Hi MAS,

Great job on building and veneering the speakers.  I've been interested in diy speakers for a number of years and i'm wondering how much woodworking experience you have had in the past to build your speakers?

Regards

Rod