Awww. c'mon guys... I said that I was kinda 'joking', But also that 'seriously' that's what I got out of the story.
Read how many times I said 'honestly' and said 'I'm not trying to slam..'.
fred,
Yes, I cracked a joke, but you're just 100% wrong about me, and you've wrongly insulted me before too, and I've NEVER attacked you.
I ignored you the last time, but not this time. Don't call me a buffoon you twit.
"- I suppose when you finally get your Le Amp II that it will be the best amplifier as well-"
Did I mention the Le Amp here??? No. Why do you?
And what does "as well" supose to mean?!? I never posted here that I own the best 'this or that' in the world. Don't imply that I did say that and then insult me over that lie.
Your post didn't add one intelligent thought to this issue (not uncommon... though you don't get the prize for 'pointless posts'. That honor is held by another).
I didn't want to get into this w/ you, but you hit me twice and I can hit back pretty hard if you keep swinging at me.
My post, while cracking a joke (and flat out admitting that I was doing so, so no one like you would flip out -guess it didn't work) also did bring up an HONEST perception that I've had even since I first looked into getting vmps speakers about the complexity of their set-up and the guess work it seems to take to set them right.
You didn't even have a single thought to explain away anything I said, but no one tells you to 'go away' like you tell me. So quit it now.
Why do you mention that I built my speakers too (for the 2nd time!)??
I didn't mention it, OR my speakers at all, OR made even the slightest hint of a refrerence to them in this thread... and don't plan to comment further about them unless I'm asked -which I have been in the ONE thread I posted here (in equal fairness to both excellent speaker designers).
You're just way off base trying to make yourself feel like you're defending vmps against me.
I had real questions. Questions that have still gone unanswered now for like the 6th time at least over the past probably 2 years. I get to be a little ticked off for that.
Brian certainly has thrown me lots of punches in that time, but I said I was willing to start over, and I don't think what I posted was way out of line at all.
He called me 'unpleasent' and I didn't cry. I cracked a joke on his story, and I'm sure he wasn't brought to tears either.
It's not the end of the world.
Tyson,
You asked what I would do to non-tweakable speakers etc...
Basically your suggestions are what I would do, and I totally understand the potential benefit of vmps's tweakability, and I get the point you were trying to make. And it was a good one. And one I've heard before from many a vmps owner.
From my own post "-highly tweakable VMPS speakers that can be made to work incredibly well in almost any room-"
I don't disagree that that's EXACTLY the awesome potential that they DO have. I thought I was clear on that already, but I say it here again to totally clarify my view.
This was not my question though.
You said -
"-As for people not being able to set it up right for good sound, I don't think that's generally the case. Most people can set it up fairly easily for good sound. But for "great" or "optimal" sound in a given room, you gotta have good ears and an understanding of how the tuning system works as a whole."
See... now that JUST the kind of answer that I was open to getting. Thanks.
I got the impression from the 'story' that this was not the case. That two audiophiles weren't able to get even good sound. I wasn't saying "they weren't able to get good sound".... I was saying "that's what it seemed like to me" from what I read. BIG difference, and I think the diff. in the people who got so pissed off and someone like you who was cool and answered the points I brought up.
IMO, my questions while challenging (which pisses people off) should be easily answerable and those answers I would guess would make the VMPS speaker design look all the better for it.
Slamming these great speakers is NOT my intention. Chirst, anyone who thinks that hasn't read what I've posted about them.
Your clarification perfectly answered my question... if it had been you who heard the systems in question.
But I'll still take from your comments that your impression is that it's only the really 'optimal' finest level of refinement that really takes what can be difficult to achive tweaking. And that such tweaking can't be done w/ other speakers and often is tough to do w/ actual room treatments.
I feel though like I'm guessing and answering my own questions in a way?
To everyone (for the millionth time)... the RM-40's were my 2nd choice of speaker to get out of what... thousands of speakers in and below that price range.
People better understand that, and know that I'm not here to cause trouble and slam vmps.
I've made many highly complementary comments about the speakers.
Tyson you also said -"With the 40's, its just a few hours of putty removal, listening to music, pot adjustment, listening to music, then more putty fine tuning, more music listening, pot fine tuning, then done. The only thing it cost me was time and some effort."
But it seems like Brian's example showed that those guys weren't able to do this? I was at a 40's owner's place and was specifically told that it's been tough to set them up, and that he wasn't done.
And yes... I only heard them for a while on one day. I make no secret of that, and have never claimed I know this speaker inside and out or anything like that, but... I heard some things that were clearly not right and the owner felt at least somewhat the same and is still trying to set them up.
I'm NOT slamming this speaker and saying 'see... no one can do it'. I was asking if there was more info that could help someone who wanted these speakers set them up optimally.
The "I'm not sure I could do it?" was honestly part of my not choosing them.
Brian I'm sure does not want to see that happen, and it'd only benefit him to be able to answer my questions for all future customers who might worry they won't be able to tweak them to sound better than a diff. non-tweakable speaker (and I'm NOT saying MY speaker for anyone who's ready to jump on my throat again!).
Tyson also asked, "-Luckily, the owner had the option to put in extensive room treatments, but what if he didn't have that option?"
True, that'd be very tough. I know you weren't really looking for a real answer and were mainly trying to make the point that (I assume) you wouldn't need much if any room treatments in that room if he owned the 40's instead? Is that what you meant?
I look at it like this... by Brian's own story both rooms had or were recommended to have room treatments despite the 40's tweakabilty that can greatly overcome room problems.
And it's been my feeling that all audio rooms probably need some room treatments or are designed so that they are the room's walls are the treatment (etc...).
Brian,
Really.... your post was very informative. Thanks.
I still thing you've 'got me wrong' in my posts intentions, and I still wish you would answer that 'pot level' question I've asked you at least 6 times. I'll probably ask it again some time I supose though.
"-From your above post I feel you disapprove of my kind of customer service, and insinuate that without my personal attention, VMPS setups will sound substandard."
No. I asked you if that was the case. I did not insinuate that it WAS the case.
And your post along w/ Tysons helped clarify that this is not the case.
I know my mixing a 'jab' at you didn't help anyone look past that and actually read exactly what I wrote and what I was really saying, but I was asking real questions.
"-You're welcome to your opionion, of course. We have 19,000 speakers in the field, and I hear owner feedback daily and have for the past 27 years. I feel I am on the right and necessary path."
I haven't formed an opinion that I 'know' this or that about your speaker design.
That's what the questions have been for (questions I first began asking you a loooong time ago). I KNOW you have a lot of experience, and that you know WAY more than I do about let's just say EVERY audio subject there is.
You don't have to claim you're 'right'. I'm not claiming you're wrong. Questioning you is not the same as calling you wrong.
If that's not 'untrolly' enough... I'm not sure what is.
Kishore,
I hope this post clears some of this up for you. You don't have to sell me on tweaking. I understand.
"-There is no standard formula where you can say for dead room=12.05 mids setting, bright room=12.30 treble etc"
Just to make it clear... I didn't say there was, and didn't ask if there was.
I asked if Brian recommends 12:00 mids, and 12:10 upper treble for a 'good starting point'. That was my exact question. I didn't get an answer.
His story had two very diff. rooms and he set both speakers to the same pot settings. It really seemed to me like he was 'getting at' that this is at the least a good starting point.
I don't know if that's not what he meant or what, but I DO know that he didn't mean that this was the setting for this speaker in any room. That's clear.
If I was sitting here w/ 40's I don't know what I would get from Brian's story that wouldn't make me wonder if he would come to my house and find that I didn't have his speakers set correctly, or what I could do to make sure that I do have them set right.
That answer would help any VMPS owner, and maybe it's a tough question, but it's not an insulting evil trollish question.
John,
I also hope this post clarifies my last post for you too.
I thought the 'joke' was funny. AND I tried to explain that I was also mostly serious about the question of what to get from the story.
Really, Brian didn't make a point to the story, he asked people to draw their own lesson from it. Yes, I made a joke, but the rest was totally serious as I didn't see the benefit of the story as a lesson.
I know I wanted to improve the bass and the imaging of Eric's 40's as I heard them, and I suggested room treatments.
It seems like Brian's trying to say that you can do so much more w/ the speakers themselves before room treaments -if any are even needed?
I know Eric's lookig into room treaments since after I came over. Maybe that's not needed? I certainly didn't want to steer him wrong.
Maybe I'll get a pair of 40's someday... I don't know? I certainly STRONGLY considered it in the past, and don't rule it out for the future.
I'd like to know how to tweak them, and some of the questions I've asked and have not been answered have been in the interest of learning how to do get them to work best.
"-Maybe you should check your previous post that the manufacturer of your speaker kit had to call you up and give "you" placement advice. Does that sound familiar?"
You're clearly getting mad. Please don't.
You tried to distort this same comment in relation to Eric's system too and I tried to clearly show you there are differences. Big ones.
So again... Danny suggested I move them to a diff. spot. I told you the diff. wasn't huge. I also told you that I didn't in the end place them where he suggested based on what I heard in my room.
I also said that where they were before I moved them was where I First placed them on 'Day One', and had intended to readjust them after break in -now having moved them from that spot all of 'one time'.
Also... I told you I didn't have a problem with how they sounded where I first put them, but as they are now the soundstage is wider giving more air around the instruments. Almost nothing else changed in the tonality, image sharpness, bass loading, etc...(as I hear it).
I got from Brian's story that at least the one room was not right sounding at all. Maybe I got it worng though. If I did all Brian has to do is say 'the rooms sounded very good before I tweaked them, and my tweaks just refined the sound even further. Something you can't hardly do w/ any other speakers.'
But then I'm answering my own questions again.
Seriously... I'm not a bad guy.
I do ask tough questions sometimes, and get ticked if they get ignored and I have had Brian insult more than one pair of speaker I own with opinions I found untrue and many others (who own and/or heard those speakers) found untrue.
You just don't know what has gone on in the past between Brian and I in the past. One-sided it has not been, but both Brain and I are clearly hard asses.
We hit back even when he think someone else is swinging -even if they aren't.
I'm a good friend w/ a happy VMPS owner and he himself has told me he thinks Brian and I are probably a lot more alike that different -which has probably helped us lock horns more than once.
I don't think I gave Brian too a hard time in this post though at all, and clearly Tyson found a great way to ignore the 'joke' and reply to the things I said.
Brian himself did too, but again... some direct answers to direct questions still have not come.
"-While I have seen that you can have a reasonable gentlemanly exchange, your venture here is not exemplary."
True enough. I swear I'll never ever claim to be a saint, but c'mon... it wasn't that bad was it?
It's like I killed someone here. It was a small joke, and really even if you found it not funny at all (which is understandable) and in horribly bad taste (which is bit too defencive imo).... it was a kinda clever punchline wasn't it?
Like I said to you before -I feel like 'the enemy' here and it's been hard to question Brian in the past, and maybe I don't care about sounding so super polite anymore. I try not to go so overboard though, and think maybe I could get along w/ everyone here if everyone was totally openminded about where I'm coming from.
I would have made that SAME joke on a diff. forum and probably gotten a diff. reaction from assorted people.
Doesn't this long winded post trying to clarify myself count for something in getting those points back?
Maybe if Brian is in town to hear/adjust Eric's system he might want to come over and hear mine? Who knows maybe he'll laugh his ass off at how horrible it sounds? I don't know? I'm still learning, but I stand behind the impressions I had of what I hear.
