Tale of 2 rooms

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James Romeyn

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Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #40 on: 25 Jul 2003, 08:34 pm »
Quote from: ekovalsky
B

When you coming to Scottsdale?  Levy & I will wine & dine you at Ruths Chris and, unlike Bongiorno, no dutch treat!!!

:hyper:


Eric
I have credit for two tickets at Southwest.  If Brian agrees to pay for airport parking we can both come out.  Sunday best for me.  I'd propose to tune your system while B does John's.  Then John drives B to re-tune your system.  You decide how much Brian's tuning improves your system.

John Casler

Having fun with Pots and Putty
« Reply #41 on: 25 Jul 2003, 08:47 pm »
In audio we make a lot of assumptions.  The main one being we know what something is supposed to sound like. :?

Well we don't.   :nono:

If you've ever been to a live event, recorded it and tried to reproduce it in your room you know how far off it is. :?

To make matters even worse, we now take a recording, made by someone else, somewhere else, on their equipment and their preferences, and assume that we can reproduce it in "our" rooms on the combination of "our" equipment.

So in fact, the best we can do is become experienced at what many live events sound like, then assemble a system that either adds less, or allows us to "tailor" the sound produced to closely duplicate what we "think" is accurate.

So we have the variables of "front end source" components, interconnects, preamps, interconnects, amps, speaker cables and speakers. (not to mention the "room")

Generally we try to affect the sound the least, from begining to end, but we still have all those variables that can and do change the sound a bit.

After we have "deadened" the acoustic contributions that may be room related, the last line of defense, is the speaker.

The speaker is the device that has the "greatest" or ultimate affect on the sound as evidenced by using the same systems with two different speakers.

So what do we listen to?  

In most cases, we select the speakers we think we like, then "try" to find electronics that will make them sound "right". :wink:

In the case of VMPS (IMO) we select a speaker, look for the components that add the absolute "least" to the signal, address our rooms and adjust the speakers to our preferences and perceptions of what sounds real.

The only way to do this is as Brian has implemented, with pots and putty.

Do the pots introduce "their" stuff to the sound too???   Of course they do, and as Al asks they could be replaced by a resistor.....IF..... you were never going to move the speakers from that room, it was always going to stay the same, and you would never change a major component in your system that would require more "fine" adjustment.

I think Brian hit the nail on the head when he said "most" speakers are "right" in a room and system maybe 2% of the time.  :x  

So that is the alternative.  

Either hope that you can be a 2%er, or make occasional adjustments to your pots and putty.

I think the daunting thing is when people hear the words, "It made an entirely different speaker", or "it was unblelivable how much better it sounded", or "they sounded terrible until I got the putty right".

I certainly can see what is "perceived", but you have to know that all other speakers "are not" perfect or even close, and have NO adjustment other than placement.  And also know that the fine tuning "DOES NOT" make it a totally different speaker.  It makes it a "fine tuned" speaker.

Brian mentions that many times "speaker designers" voice their creations in their rooms (I bet you all thought they did it is some laboratory with an anechoic chamber) with their personal preferences.

There is no perfect "Speaker Design Room" since they will be placed  in thousands of different rooms, of varying shapes and sizes.

And I might add that even these adjustments cannot solve "all" problems, they can only allow us to "tune" what we can.

So what does this mean?  

It means that we, who have and enjoy VMPS Ribbons, can make adjustments.   Will our speakrs sound better if we adjust them?  

If we follow directions and "tweak" around a bit, "YES".

Will the difference be the difference between lousy or perfect?  Probably not.  It will just allow us to "fine tune" our instrument to a degree that pleases us within the framework of of electronic, and room limitations.

Is it hard to do?  No... and no need to worry about getting it wrong since it can always be adjusted more as you learn what the adjustments sound like.

Let me tell you, My system sounds "much" better after 7:00 PM with the lights off, than it does at 12:00 noon, and that is probably because the power's cleaner, the air is denser, the lights are out for fewer distractions and less drain on my own electrical system.

So the point is, many things can affect how your system sounds and it is entirely subjective as to how you measure and explain those improvements.

If my system made a quantum leap in sonic purity every time I reported an "unbelievable" perceived improvement, I would be glued to my sweet seat and would never move.  Most improvements after a certain level are subtle if noticable at all.

If you are a VMPS owner and you wonder why you are not hearing these reported improvements, I have to say that the Speaker is only the last link in the system and the room, and the way we listen, as well as our expectations, are all factored into the ultimate perceptions we form.

With a little time and tweaking, your VMPS can ultimatley provide you with some of the best sonics adventures available.

If you are considering VMPS, just know that the adjustment devices are not all that difficult and and if I can adjust them and get good results, then you can too, just don't expect TOO much.  

They have limits within your system and set up.

Anyone who reads this board is probably an enthusiast, and most likely a budding if not full fledged audiophile.  When you reach this level many decisions must be made and many times they are made on a purely subjective level.

Do you like it or don't you.  

Personally, I like to make adjustments, but let me assure you, the alternative of not being able to adjust, would leave me feeling "stuck" with a sound that I couldn't change without much effort and cost.

So "pot and putty tuning" look pretty good to me.  YMMV :mrgreen:

James Romeyn

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Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #42 on: 25 Jul 2003, 08:48 pm »
Quote from: azryan
"Anyone care to comment on the lessons to be learned here?"

Is the lesson -That two audiophiles who on thier own each attempted to properly set up their multi thousand dollar systems consisting of highly tweakable VMPS speakers that can be made to work incredibly well in almost any room -but neither was able to actually 'do this' and both needed the actual owner/designer of the speakers to come over and set their system up for them?

Sorry. It was just too easy a punchline to pass up on. But seriously. ...




Gee whiz, this is a surprise?  That a loudspeaker designer is able improve the sound beyond his customer's efforts?  And this=product flaw?  Get a life.  Write your congressperson.  Maybe they can pass a law.

John Casler

Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #43 on: 25 Jul 2003, 08:52 pm »
Quote
Also... Is there a photo of the putty as it's stock from the factory?


AZ look here: http://www.vmpseurope.com/e/add006.htm

James Romeyn

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Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #44 on: 25 Jul 2003, 08:59 pm »
Quote from: JoshK
Quote from: MaxCast
...What kind of pot is it?


If Brian is getting it from Humbolt I bet it is good pot.


C'mon, get real.  If Humboldt is so good, where's all the wineries?  Sonoma & Mendocino Counties rule.

James Romeyn

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Re: POT QUESTION
« Reply #45 on: 25 Jul 2003, 09:12 pm »
Quote from: Audio Al
I'm glad this question of pots in the signal path came up.  I'e always wondered how "good" the VMPS pots are and whether taking them out would make a significant improvement.
Back in the 70's I bought a pair of Infinity speakers (Q something or Kappa something, I can't remember, maybe too much pot) that had a 12" woofer, a dome mid and an EMIT (ribbon) tweeter.  There were 2 pots to control the mid and hi's.  After a few years these pots would burn out and cause dead spots and noise when they were adjusted ...


It's called a pot cause it looks like one & it is more correctly called an L-pad.  There are two pots inside, one series, one parallel.  As one increases in resistance, the other decreases, the goal being an almost linear load for the XO.  As the load changes so would the XO point.  IMHO, because small changes in the system could require control changes, the controls should stay in circuit.  My customers get their control contacts sprayed with the best treatment available, Caig Pro Gold.  It is recommended if you did not get them from me, you sspread open one of the cooling slots on the back of each pot, & spray Pro Gold in there.  It makes an audible improvement.  I have a list of other tweeks I'll publish here for kit builders if anyone wants to read it.

Audio Al

Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #46 on: 25 Jul 2003, 09:58 pm »
Hi Jim and Jon,
Gee, do you guys defend VMPS speakers and their design to the death?  Give me a break.  As a VMPS owner I appreciate the versatility of the adjustments but was wondering once someone is through tweeking, would a hi quality resistor sound better?  Has anyone experimented with this?  You have not answered my question.  
I realize you guys are endless tweekers and would never replace your pots...err.....excuse me L-pads.
I believe it is John who advocates the removal of the switch in favor of a jumper and I think my question is similar.  Replacement by a cleaner sounding component.  So why are you guys so defensive and dismissive?

John Casler

Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #47 on: 25 Jul 2003, 11:22 pm »
Hi Al,

Regarding your question, I think there is little doubt that a single resistor might "clean" the path a bit, but you loose the flexibility.

I'm not qualified to answer as to the extent of or degree of improvement.  Only Brian could effectively answer how much cleaner he might expect it to be.

It seems to be one of the things that is part of the VMPS "Signature". :wink:

James Romeyn

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Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #48 on: 26 Jul 2003, 12:28 am »
Quote from: Audio Al
Hi Jim and Jon,
Gee, do you guys defend VMPS speakers and their design to the death?  Give me a break.  As a VMPS owner I appreciate the versatility of the adjustments but was wondering once someone is through tweeking, would a hi quality resistor sound better?  Has anyone experimented with this?  You have not answered my question.  
I realize you guys are endless tweekers and would never replace your pots...err.....excuse me L-pads.
I believe it is John who advocates the removal of the switch in favor o ...


There was not one dismissive or defensive word or thought in my response.  It would take two resistance devices to replace each pot.  I absolutely recommend you try it & report back the results.  It's gonna be hard to replicate the exact L-pad resistances.  I have been recommending deleting the toggle since 1/02 & listed it as a free option at that time (charge only for the optional jumper cables).  The resistors should absolutely sound better, till anything in your room or system is changed.  I suppose the speaker could have two connectors per L-pad, with a common ground.  Then we could swap between the L-pad & fixed resistors.  Just another psychotic audio desire.

James Romeyn

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Audio Al: Is your cat a Ragdoll?
« Reply #49 on: 26 Jul 2003, 12:35 am »
Just wondering.  The wife & I just got a Ragdoll kitten, the absolutely best breed of cat!

James Romeyn

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Audio Al: Is your cat a Ragdoll?
« Reply #50 on: 26 Jul 2003, 12:35 am »
Just wondering.  The wife & I just got a Ragdoll kitten, the absolutely best breed of cat!

wshuff

Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #51 on: 26 Jul 2003, 01:47 am »
This thread has been very informative for me, so thanks.  I've got 626Rs, so no putty, but plenty of pot(s).  I've played around with the settings some, but have never really known what is supposed to be "right."  I don't hear many (any) live events for comparison, and basically 99% of anything I do hear is in my own room, on my equipment.  In other words, what I hear while sitting on my couch is for the most part my only reference.  Adding the VMPS speakers did amount to a large improvement and increased my enjoyment because for the first time I understood what was meant by imaging, there was more clarity and detail.  Of course, I replaced bipolar speakers that were spraying sound everywhere so the differences were pretty drastic.  If the VMPS speakers are flashlights like John C. describes on occasion, then my prior speakers were more like...flood lights maybe.  So that was a change that was pretty noticeable for me.  Playing with the pots, less so.  In fact, I'd say that if I chose a setting and left it there for a few days I'd get used to that setting and that would then be "right" to me.  If a change sounded different, then I'd probably think it more different than better or right.  So it is interesting to read this thread.  Always before I just figured that I'm not capable of discerning these improvements that people post about.  If I'm understanding things here, though, it sounds like maybe I'm not so far off base after all.  And...it is fun to play.

Brian Cheney

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pots
« Reply #52 on: 26 Jul 2003, 01:50 am »
Two Vishay 100W resistors would sound better than the pot, but if you change equipment or speaker wire, or if you speaker changes with age and use (it does), you can't readjust.  Surgery inside the speaker is a real bear.

All speaker Lpads come from a lone vendor in Taiwan nowadays, so manufacturers using them feed from the same trough.

Tyson

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Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #53 on: 26 Jul 2003, 02:10 am »
I don't hear "large" improvements from very small increments on the pots or the putty.  Perhaps Brian and I have different definitions of "large".

I do not think there is some "magical" setting where everything just "falls in to place" and that all other settings are not even close to good sounding.  The improvements as you learn to fine tune are incremental.  

IMO, the pots are actually pretty easy to set, once you have the bass done well.  Speaker placement and putty damping are the most difficult aspects of tuning the 40's, in my experience.  Lucky for me, I've had the same room for my 2 channel setup for the past 5 years, so I know how it interacts with speaker placement WRT to bass.  That made getting the putty damping a lot easier.

Once the bass damping is done, the rest is pretty easy.  I listen to piano and and vocal music (since I know how voices should sound, and I've spent a lot of time listening to live piano).  The pots take care of tonal balance, so I listen if the upper frequency is emphasized too much (reduce the treble and mid pot), if the mids are too prominent (reduce the mid pot), if the lower mids are overpowering (raise the mid pot), if the frequency extremes are too prominent (raise the mid pot, leave the tweeter pot alone).  

If the mids are not "rich" sounding enough, it is probably a combination of the bass being over damped and/or the mid pot set too high.  Having the bass overdamped and the mid pot turned up too much results in a sound that is shifted toward the upper mids and not enough weight to the lower mids.  

Sometimes the mids still sound thin even w/the mid pot turned down, yet the bass is overbearing.  This is a result either of a room mode (try moving the speaker), or the bass being underdamped for the proper mid pot setting.  Try moving the speakers and/or damping the bass a bit more.  

As you play around w/the various settings, you get a feel for how each setting will affect the sound, and once you've got that, zero-ing in on an optimal tuning is not that big a deal at all.

One thing you may find is that sibilants are emphasized and no ammount of pot adjustments will reduce it, at that point the culprit is almost assuredly the room.  Most "average" rooms can be compensated for by turning down the mid and tweeter pots to combat brighness, and you will end up with a rich sounding lower mids/upper bass setting, but some rooms are so bad that no settings will help much.  Then it's time for room treatments.

Audio Al

Ragdoll?
« Reply #54 on: 26 Jul 2003, 02:26 am »
Jim,
Areyou for real with this ragdoll?  Are you talking about a real breed or a plush cat?  :nono:  I never heard of a ragdoll.  Even if you're putting me on , here's the scoop.  
Teddy is a Siamese (lilac point) of which I have owned three.  They are probably the oldest breed of cats being bred and domesticated by Tibetian monks for approx 3000 yrs.  Most breeds today are barely 500 yrs old.  These cats develop a bond with their owners that dogs don't approach.  He follows me everywhere and even likes to listen next to me on in the sweet spot.  This breed is very vocal and they have many different sounds for different situations.  Until you own one of these cats you have no idea what a cat with an obsession toward their owner is like.  Teddy is by far the friendliest cat I have owned.  Not all Siamese are that way with outsiders.  They often get a bad rap as crazy cats, but I think that is a product of people whp don't spend enough time with them and leave them alone all day.
 Anyway, if you guys don't think I'm crazy by now, if you want a cat that will bond with you and not be indepedent, Siamese is the way to go.

Brian,
thanks for commenting,  all I wanted to know was the difference in speaker performance with and without the pot.

rosconey

Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #55 on: 26 Jul 2003, 10:28 am »
:o my mom is into siamese-man they can howel.
the cat always like me better(frank siamnatra)i used to flip it  with my foot when i walked by it, crazy cat loved it.what made my mom the maddest was that the cat would always talk to me and never her.
i moved home once for 3 or 4 months while i looked for a house, when i moved out my mom said the cat sat infront of my door for months every morning and tried to talk with me-kinda sad he just passed after 17 years.if i ever do get a cat it will be a siamese

lkosova

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Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #56 on: 27 Jul 2003, 03:30 am »
John,

Southwest flys to Chicago also!!

I still think that it is amazing that a manufactor/designer would care enough to go to the "real world" to hear their product. When was the last time that Klipsch,Proac or M&K etc.etc came over to your house. Oprah has vistied more houses then they have....

Anyway so what is the best tweak?......The new tweater design, sound proofing your room......or Having Brain over to tweak your system??????

Larry

ekovalsky

Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #57 on: 27 Jul 2003, 10:22 am »
Anyone know what David Wilson charges to personally come out and set up a customers system?

$20,000  :o

Though that bargain price is waived if you buy a new pair of his Grand SLAMM VII for a quarter million $ new from a dealer at full retail price.  The big Wilson speakers, despite their astronomical price, probably cost less to manufacture than the larger VMPS systems too, and the times I've heard them they sounded like crap.

John Casler

Tale of 2 rooms
« Reply #58 on: 27 Jul 2003, 05:15 pm »
Quote from: lkosova

Anyway so what is the best tweak?......The new tweater design, sound proofing your room......or Having Brain over to tweak your system??????

Larry


Having Brian over is surely the ultimate, since the speakers are then set up as the "designer" intended them to be.

But why not get the FST "and" treat your room before he comes?

Yeah :lol: