[Brian Cheney]

I visited two local RM40 (FST, TRT) owners yesterday whose equipment (Bryston, Sunfire) IC's and speaker wire were very similar but whose sound was very different:
Room 1. 20x15' basement, heavily damped on all surfaces with lots of stuffed leather furniture.  Dead sound with little bass below 40Hz.  Hazy, untransparent.  Dedicated HT room including two large, expensive servo-controlled subs of other manufacture which were no help with the bass, since the LF quality was poor and did not yield to changes in room position, level or crossover adjustments.
What I did: moved front RM 40's (there was also a rear pair) 1" closer to the back wall, removed pea-sized amount of putty from both fronts, reduced level controls to 12 o'clock (mids) and 12:10 (treble).  Went very slowly, taking dust-speck amounts of putty off at a time.  Took those twin subs from the front of the room and found a spot (mid room on side walls, driver facing the back of the room) where the subs did the least damage to the sound.  Disconnected both subs and told owner to use as coffee tables only.
Results: sweet clear sound down to 30Hz.  Still a little reticent in the bass.  Owner should take all damping from listening end of room and make it reflective, while damping the speaker end.

Room 2:
Completely undamped 25x10' suspended wooden floor livingroom/kitchen;
 no carpets or drapes, opening on left side to dining area, coffee table and single stuffed listening chair.  Sound was lively with a mid-bass bloom that while not really objectionable, I decided to remove.  
What I did: removed a fingernail full of putty from one speaker to kill midbass hump, reduced level controls to 12 o'clock (mids) and 12:10 (treble), moved one speaker 1" closer to back wall (short wall placement).
Result: clear, lively, 3-D sound with extraordinary bass levels and extension.  Shanling CD player sounded exceptionally sweet.  Everyone happy.

Elapsed time: room 1 90 minutes.  room 2 15 minutes.

Anyone care to comment on the lessons to be learned here?

[audiochef]

Hi Brian, as an year owner of speakers (ttse) still have for my analog room and now 40s for he-man rig,putty removal makes small but absolutely critical diferrences. It has been posted by some that  they can't hear any diferrences. I've helped  steve  out  with his on his RM1s to good effect. VMPS owners need to LISTEN and be PATIENT .The rewards are from having good speakers to great ones ,which VMPS are.

[Horsehead]

How far off the front walls (to the rear of the RM40 cabinet) were the speakers placed?  Just curious to see if this played a role in bass response and if placement off the front wall was different or the same in both rooms.

[audiochef]

as you suspect, placement above all is most critical in sound quality. even a half inch in either direction  will render your system listenable  or not listenable at all. But thats  the tweakiness of this hobby. Or you can  go the route of my friend who couldn't handle this and got rid of his tubed  audiorearch , Classe 300  and cec  for a Plinius integraded. Different leauge though,but still acceptable. I'm trying to reconvert him.

[azryan]

"Anyone care to comment on the lessons to be learned here?"

Is the lesson -That two audiophiles who on thier own each attempted to properly set up their multi thousand dollar systems consisting of highly tweakable VMPS speakers that can be made to work incredibly well in almost any room -but neither was able to actually 'do this' and both needed the actual owner/designer of the speakers to come over and set their system up for them?

Sorry. It was just too easy a punchline to pass up on. But seriously... that's kinda what I got from the story.

Is the lesson that you don't like damped rooms at all? You seemed to find the far more live room to be much better before you tweaked it.

Seriously Brian, I know we've not gotten along in the past, but honestly... how can a VMPS owner expect to properly set up their system without you doing it for them?

I've asked this MANY times (and got pissed after a while for no answer), but I'll try again... are there exact pot settings that set the speakers to what would be anechoicly flat (if in an anechoic room. not that anybody's room is anechoic)?

Is that how the speakers are shipped to customers?

On both examples you said you set the pots to the exact same spot 12:00 mids, and 12:10 upper treble, yet seem to describe VERY diff. rooms.
 
Is that probably the best setting in your opinion for most rooms. A 'best starting point' maybe?  And then adjust the putty to taste (oops. I don't meant 'eat the putty'. hehe).

Honestly, it seems like it's terribly hard to set them up properly. That's really what I got out of your 'lesson' and from hearing the pair I heard and the tweaking they had gone through for over a year (and the owner's not done).
You removed a bit of putty from one speaker but not the other... moved the speakers a single inch from where they were....

I'm not trying to insult you (though we have both ticked eachother off in the past on assorted threads on assorted forums), but really...

Is there a good way for you to explain to customers how to do these adjustments themselves without you needing to travel to their houses and do it for them?
From your own story it seems like a typical owner (who's typically far more advanced in audio knowledge than the masses) can't do it?

PS... I might buy a LRC from you one day... I don't hate you, and ain't trying to slam you. I do have real questions though, and asking them has not gone well for me w/ you in the past. I'm willing to start over though.

You've got a great dealer in John C.

[fredgarvin]

OK, you built your little speakers and boy you are really proud. How about bugging off the VMPS forum and playing in your own room? Not getting along with you, I'm sure, is not something only Brian and Audiochef have had trouble with. I suppose when you finally get your Le Amp II that it will be the best amplifier as well and you will go to someone else's board and act like a buffoon...

[Tyson]

azryan,
What if you had a pair of speakers that sounded bright in a "live" room, what would you do to remedy that?  You'd have to either treat the room (not always possible), move the speakers (easy to do, but doesn't help enough by itself in most cases) get different upstream gear to "tame" the sound (can get very expensive), or get different speakers (can be expensive and definitely a hassle).  The RM speakers at least let you have a chance at getting good sound in a less than ideal room.

Conversely, what if your speakers sounded lifeless in a well-damped room?  See where this is going?

As for people not being able to set it up right for good sound, I don't think that's generally the case.  Most people can set it up fairly easily for good sound.  But for "great" or "optimal" sound in a given room, you gotta have good ears and an understanding of how the tuning system works as a whole.  The ears part can be learned and most audiophiles I've met have good ears already (ie, they know what to listen for).  The tuning system is certainly a learning curve, but I'll take learning how to tune a speaker over having to sell all my equipment any day.  I mean, what happens if I move, or change the room?  Buying new equipment again all over again to get the sound balanced again is just not very appealing to me.  With the 40's, its just a few hours of putty removal, listening to music, pot adjustment, listening to music, then more putty fine tuning, more music listening, pot fine tuning, then done.  The only thing it cost me was time and some effort.

As an example of what I'm talking about, when I heard the excelarrays a while back, they were in a mostly untreated room w/a digital front end, and the sound was incredibly bright.  Luckily, the owner had the option to put in extensive room treatments, but what if he didn't have that option?  What could he do?  Besides selling his equipment, there's not much that can be done, and even then, getting the right equipment to match a specific room/speaker is a pretty arduous task. . .

[Brian Cheney]

I routinely visit VMPS owners and gather data on how our speakers perform in the real world.  According to my notes I have visited 200 owners in the past decade, sometimes travelling 3000 miles to do so, at no charge to the owners.  

12:00 control setting in a small room may not be 12:00 in another room, the increments are smaller than I can tell by eye.  The "lesson to be learned" from this post is that the difference between good, mediocre and poor is often very, very small.  With the RM 40 and other floorstanding VMPS, you can do something about it.  
Some owners make no attempt to tune their speakers (as was the case with the RM 40 owner in the undamped 10x25' room).  Others go a long way, like Tyson.  It depends on your listening skills and the amount of time and energy you want to invest.

A non-tunable, non-adjustable speaker works well in a given environment maybe 2% of the time.  The remaining 98% of the owners spend hours, days, weeks and years trying to get it right and failing, because their speakers are voiced the way the designer likes it in his room.  A 1% difference in source impedance (say speaker wire with 0.9 Ohms ESR instead of .8 Ohm) will effect a huge change in perceived bass response.

From your above post I feel you disapprove of my kind of customer service, and insinuate that without my personal attention, VMPS setups will sound substandard.  You're welcome to your opionion, of course.  We have 19,000 speakers in the field, and I hear owner feedback daily and have for the past 27 years.  I feel I am on the right and necessary path.

[ekovalsky]

B

When you coming to Scottsdale?  Levy & I will wine & dine you at Ruths Chris and, unlike Bongiorno, no dutch treat!!!

[Kishore]

Azryan,

The insulting tone of your posts is worse than picking up typos . C'mon  Man- you can do better-esp when you have nicely worded and given great info in other threads/posts.

I donot think VMPS is the only brand of speakers offering tweakability-and very clearly Brian wanted to draw contrasts of 2 different rooms( and 2 different audiophiles I guess ) and the miniscule treatment made, to make a big difference in sound.

You can view tweaking as a positive (if you are a tweaker and love to spend the effort to achieve something better) or negative (plug'n play & be done with it)...and speaker tweaking is just a part of entire tuning/tweaking experience. There is no standard formula where you can say for dead room=12.05 mids setting, bright room=12.30 treble etc

...From your above post I feel you disapprove of my kind of customer service, and insinuate that without my personal attention, VMPS setups will sound substandard. You're welcome to your opionion, of course. We have 19,000 speakers in the field, and I hear owner feedback daily and have for the past 27 years. I feel I am on the right and necessary path.

Amen and Thank you Brian-and please continue to do so!

Cheers,
Kishore

[Brian Cheney]

Aug 2 I visit Soundguy3 in Portland.  If you want a home visit send a plane ticket. Southwest is OK with me.  Make sure you have your system together the way you want it first.

[Juan R]

What about Emeryl`s, also I can arrange some plastis surgery(joke).

[audiochef]

kudos to Fredgarvin and Kishore,true non angry audiophiles. Keep it up. Audiochef

[John Casler]

Is the lesson -That two audiophiles who on thier own each attempted to properly set up their multi thousand dollar systems consisting of highly tweakable VMPS speakers that can be made to work incredibly well in almost any room -but neither was able to actually 'do this' and both needed the actual owner/designer of the speakers to come over and set their system up for them?

Sorry. It was just too easy a punchline to pass up on. But seriously... that's kinda what I got from the story.

AZ,

What's gotten into you?  

You and I had a nice and reasonable exchange and then you throw this kind of garbage.

Maybe you should check your previous post that the manufacturer of your speaker kit had to call you up and give "you" placement advice. Does that sound familiar?

Seems to me you had them very close together.  Give it a break, that is what good designers do.

While I have seen that you can have a reasonable gentlemanly exchange, your venture here is not exemplary.

While you are certainly free to post your thoughts, childish badgering is just that.  Maybe you do not appreciate the functions and abilities of any speakers but your own.  Thats cool, but use a little class in your questioning.

We're all here to share and learn.  It is also a good idea to respect a manufacturers own forum.

You lost some points on that one.

[audiochef]

Thanks John your're obviously an assett to our plundering cummunity. It just seems to me that there are so called audiophiles who can take advantage  of this critical and crucial neccesity. That's  OK , that's what us VMPS fans are here for , to help educate, encourage and keep it  alive.  VMPS makes  this so much more feasable. Many thanks  Mr.Brian Cheney

[soundguy3]

I am looking forward to Brian's visit.  My RM40's continue to amaze me. Just the slightest turn of the pots, the minute removal/addition of putty makes a HUGE difference in the soundstage and timbre of the speakers. I so much enjoy this ability to "tune" the speakers to my living room....and when you have them dialed in correctly....WOW...very 3D sound, which is what I getting now.....extremely enjoyable.

I had a wonderful visit the other night from Kevin W and his friend David from Seattle, who is also an RM40 owner, and Jennifer Whitewolf Crock of Jena Labs fame.  We listened to some new Jena Labs wires and  some CD's through the RM40's with the EAR Acoustic Reality MKII amp and preamp.  We also listened to Kevin W's new speaker he is working on which will eventually be sold to the masses.  Some great sounds were heard and enjoyed!  This is what it's all about.  


later,

Soundguy3

[hmen]

Brian,
  Plan to be in New York any time soon?

                        Howard

[John Casler]

Let's see,

San Francisco
Portland
Scottsdale
New York
New Orleans
Denver (just added)
??????

Looks like a VMPS World Tour.
 
Where else does Southwest Fly?

[Tyson]

How about Denver?  3 RM40 owners in or around Denver, and a couple of 626R owners too. . .  If we all chipped in, we could get Brian here cheap.

[John Casler]

How about Denver?  3 RM40 owners in or around Denver, and a couple of 626R owners too. . .  If we all chipped in, we could get Brian here cheap.

A plane ticket and a couple good meals will work wonders with the "Sonic Sorcerer".

If you hear about the "Disney connection", you know you've made it to the "Inner Circle", and have passed from customer, to one of the "annointed few".