[JimB]

For practice, before building my AKSA 100N, I've soldered a couple of cheap hobby kits. I've gained a lot of confidence. The one thing I'm still wondering about is: What is the best solder for an AKSA type project?

I've learned from other postings that there is a lot of hype out there, and I don't believe that some exotic audiophile solder sounds any different than generic 60/40.

What I'm getting at is what is the best solder in terms of soldering ease and making a quality connection.

Thanks for any replies.

[Occam]

Use a eutectic solder (which 60/40 is not) with a high qualiy flux core. This minimizes the possibility of cold solder joints. Kester '44' 63/37 or Ersin Multicore 63/37 have excellent whetting properties and are easy to work with due to their lower melting points. Inexpensive too.

Iff'n you want exotic try their eutectic 2% silver versions; it should cost you incrementally about $0.25 wire your Nirvana's with them.

[AKSA]

Jim,

In the kitset I supply a couple metres of high quality 60:40 tin/lead multicore from Consolidated Alloys.  Several builders have commented this solder is particuarly easy to use.

This is significant, because if it's easier to use, the joints will generally be superior, less likely to go 'dry'.

I also use Ersin Multicore 60:38:2 tin/lead/silver LMP 172C.  I prefer this solder to use, but it's much more expensive.  I've NEVER been able to hear a difference in sonics using these two solders.  

Occam, thanks for your good advice!

Cheers,

Hugh

[terryw]

Hugh

Is Ersin Multicore available for purchase in Australia?

Thanks
Terry

[AKSA]

Hi Terry,

Yes, Multicore is available in Sydney here:

MULTICORE SOLDERS
DIVISION OF LOCTITE AUSTRALIA
3 Endeavour Rd Caringbah 2229   (02) 9525 8366

Cheers,

Hugh

[PSP]

I use Cardas solder, available at Michael Percy.  I bought it the first time to fill out an order, to get above the minimum order amount.  It is not cheap, but I like it because I almost always get nice joints, it's usually very shiny when it cools, so the occasional bad joint is easier to see.  I also think it melts at a relatively low temperature (when I use other solders, it seems like I need to keep the iron tip on the joint longer) and this means less heat dumped into sensitive components like caps and semiconductors.

If you buy some Cardas solder use a new (or very well cleaned) solder tip.  When I have used other solders and then go back to Cardas, the Cardas doesn't wet the joint very well (maybe an incompatibility between fluxes and/or metals in the alloy) but I've never had a problem if I start with a clean tip and use that tip only with Cardas solder.

Peter

[Al Garay]

I just ordered a pound spool of Cardas  Quad-Eutectic solder for $38 from www.soniccraft.com. He buys large bulk at OEM prices.
http://www.soniccraft.com/parts/cardas.htm

Another popular option is WBT Silve solder that has no lead in it. You can get 1/2 pound from Parts Express for $28.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3

You can read lots of reviews on solder by doing a search in:
http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html

Al

[Lou]

"I've NEVER been able to hear a difference in sonics using these two solders."

Hi Hugh,

A fellow brought over your little AKSA 55 watt amp yesterday, we had a Cincinnati audiophile meeting. We swapped out your caps on the driver cards for Black Gates. We did only one channel, Chris, nor I, bothered following out the wires to determine which channel we had moded, so it was in effect a blind test all around.

EVERYONE IMMEDIATELY, Chris and I included, picked out the channel with the Black Gates. The other caps are akin to sound sponges, and they literally soak up the sound. The channel with the Black Gates was not merely better sounding, fuller, with WAY better highs, better bass etc, but it was also quite noticeably louder. Of course Black Gate caps only improve with time, so the differences over a month would only become more and more pronounced.

We moded the other channel, unhooked my highly moded Threshold Stasis-2 amp, and listened to the little AKSA amp the rest of the night. Pitty you put sound sponges into your product when Black Gates are available. One could argue that with the rest of the system most of these amps are going into a difference may not be heard. Nevertheless, many will upgrade their speakers and sources over the years, and the difference will become important.

I am not saying that the AKSA sounded better than the Stasis-2, we really did not compare them after the AKSA was moded, so I simply do not know for sure. The AKSA sure did sound great though!

I don’t know if you could hear a difference in solders if you used Black Gates or not, but I am not the least surprised that you could not hear it in an amp with the sound sponges in it.

The system we were using consisted of;

Sony CDP-707ESD
Conrad Johnson PF-R preamp
Ellis Audio 1801B speakers

All of these pieces were modified in some way(s), so they are all better sounding than their stock equivalents.

[JohnR]

?

What driver card? You mean the power supply caps?

[Lou]

?

What driver card? You mean the power supply caps?

Hi John,


Now way, that would cost a ton, but better caps like the Nichicon's from Percy Audio may make a difference there too. I am talking about the ones on the circuit boards with the transistors. There are 6 caps per board if memory serves.

[JohnR]

I count six electrolytics on my boards. Presumably some make more difference than others, I just replaced two of them as part of the upgrade. I'm waiting for it to run in before comparing to my other (stock) amp. Hugh's always encouraged tweaking, in fact there's a bunch of stuff on his site about it.

So what solder was used to build this particular amp you're talking about?

[Lou]

Hi John,

As it was not my amp, I really do not know. I would think he used the supplied solder. I used Kestler 2% silver bearing solder for the mods though.

[Lou]

I count six electrolytics on my boards. Presumably some make more difference than others,

While it is true that some are more important than others, when you compare what an upgrade in amps costs, that is price verses gain, it makes the Black Gates look pretty inexpensive, and it makes little gains appear more important, and they are. Also, I think because a lot of people are using these amps in low fi systems, the changes are masked by bad crossovers, bad drivers, and/or bad sources. The better the system, the more you will notice the changes.

Lots of folks with lower end systems will think that the only caps that matter are the ones in the signal path. RC Crump has said in effect, and I agree, that the AC cannot be right if the DC is not right first. Thus even the little bias caps make a big difference. This is also why I would recommend the better Nichicon caps in the power supply. If money is no object, you could even try paralleling a ton of Black Gate caps together for the power supply caps. I'm anal to be sure, but not quite that anal I'm afraid.  

[JohnR]

Err... Lou, are you aware that you're coming off as being more than a bit pretentious? Why do you say that these amps are going into low-fi systems?

Anyway, on the solder (which is after all the subject of this thread), you seem to be saying that the caps made all this difference, but it made no difference what solder was used, since you neither know nor apparently care. Is that right?

JohnR

[Lou]

Err... Lou, are you aware that you're coming off as being more than a bit pretentious? Why do you say that these amps are going into low-fi systems?

Hi John,

I really am not politically correct and I tend to distain those who are, as it is both disingenuous and antiintellectual at best. These amps are going to be purchased far more by those who cannot afford a Pass Labs Aleph or an X 350 than by those who can.

That being the case, they are far more likely to be using inexpensive, or older speakers which generally have bad crossover parts, so-so drivers and lower resolution. Sure, there will be large numbers of exceptions, but not a large percentage of exceptions.

Furthermore, Chris told me that the general consensis on this board is that black gate caps do not make a tremendous difference. How can that be? No less than 6 people heard a tremendous difference last night in my system, and the BG caps were not even broken in fully. So how can it be, it can be because most people do not have a high resolution system, that is how.

I am not going to be politically correct here, I have been into audio for 25+ years. Till recently I was unable to obtain good gear. This was so not only because it was expensive, but also because reviewers lie in their reviews, or are clueless to begin with, with rare exceptions like Cordsman and Holt, but till you know more, how can you know that they are honest and good?

Furthermore, there never were many good audio salons/stores. Most loved upgradeitis, so they would gladly sell you junk and call it a gem.

Then there are/were the speaker manufactures. Many are clueless, they sell hype but if you pin them down, they know nearly nothing of crossover designs etc., they may farm that out, which is fine, but if they are clueless, who is to say that the designer is any better? Drivers have just recently improved to the point that there are some really awesome speakers out there now. Problem is, who is, and who is not properly implimenting these drivers?

I believe 3 companies use the Dynaudio Esotar, competent sources assure me that only 1 of the 3 really has competently implimented that tweeter. So, even given good speakers, one can still drop the ball.

Furthermore, I have heard systems that cost well over $15,000 that sound absolutely horrid! So even money will not necessarily buy you a good system.

Furthermore, read some of the reviews of gear on AudioReview, if it did not break, no one is giving less than 4 stars to speak of, since most of it is junk, you figure it out.

No, I am not being pretentious in the least, I am simply calling a spade a spade. Furthermore, I have been no less guilty than anyone else in thinking I had a reasonably nice system when in fact it sucked. I know because I have been there, and I see and hear it all the time. I'd be shocked if more than 2-5% of all systems are really listenable over time.

Lastly, it is not about having "golden ears" either, I have an 80 year old Uncle, a former Marine that landed on every beach in the Pacific in WWII except one, he was down with malaria for that one. He wears a hearing aid, and he can here the differences I am talking about, sometimes he catches things even before I do! So this is not pretentious snobbery, but mere truth. Perhaps you cannot handle the truth? Most do not seem to have much of a stomach for it these days, you'd think they were reared in France or something, who knows?

[Lou]

Anyway, on the solder (which is after all the subject of this thread), you seem to be saying that the caps made all this difference, but it made no difference what solder was used, since you neither know nor apparently care. Is that right?

JohnR

Sorry John,

After your provocative statement, I went off and never answered your question. It is not my amp, so my caring is pretty finite to be sure. Furthermore, I have found that most folks either slay dragons, or swat at gnatts. I prefer to slay dragons, the caps will make a tremendous difference, the solder, while I admit I do not know, I doubt will make much of a difference. I do know from dealing with wires that a short length, say 5" of mediocre wire is not nearly as noticable as 3" of said wire. Really bad sounding wire is a different story, bad is bad.

Therefore, if one solder is better than another, but not tremendously so, as long as you are not listening to yards of it, it is going to be very difficult to tell a difference, IMO. The exception being really poor quality solder. YMMV

[JohnR]

Right, the truth as made up by you  

So, tell us what's in your system - ?

[Lou]

So, tell us what's in your system - ?

I am supposing that this is not a rhetorical, as I did that in an earlier post John. With the exception of my TT and phono preamp, which consists of a Sota Star Sapphire, with a Souther SLA-3 arm, which was deigned using 2 Sota Star Sapphire turntables, I know a guy who worked with Lou Souther briefly, a Denon 103 with a Van Den Hul cantaleaver and stylus, and a modified Acurus P-10 phono stage.

The Denon does nothing special, other than the fact that they really did nothing wrong, which is rare. It's not a Shelter to be sure, but it's good.

I also failed to mention, because we did not use them last night, my Acoustat Spectra 3300's which are a little on the bright side and not nearly as transparent as the Ellis 1801B's, but they are still a darned site better than most speakers out there even today. I'd take ML CLS's over them anytime, to mention one of many.

Unfortunately everything I own, other than the Sota and the Souther, have been pretty well modified, so unless you hear it here, you really have never heard it. I did some pretty radical mods to the Threshold Stasis 2, and sent it to Jon Soderberg to have match o/p transistors installed, if you have never worked with a Stasis amp it may be hard to understand why one would send it to a pro, but they are VERY particular, and will often go into oscillation, so it is far better to send it to a Stasis pro for such work. I spoke to Stan Warren about it before sending it, he said he had spent several weeks on a similar design once for a friend, he suggested it was not worth trying, I agreed!

[Lou]

Sorry it took so long to respond, Steve, one of they Cincy audionuts brought over a Bryston amp he wants me to repair for him.

[JohnR]

Oh right, so you did.