[Jens]

Hi Lou,

What type of Black Gates were used for the update you described?

(Just so we all now what size of bank we need to rob    )

Cheers,

Jens

[AKSA]

Hi Lou,

Thank you for your post - the information is valuable and humorously delivered.     I LOVE political incorrectness - heck, John Belushi has arrived at the Aspen forum!

Your BG choices make good sense for an upgrade, no doubt about it.  I will look into it, but these little caps, unavailable in Australia so I'd need to import them, are hellish expensive and will set me back a few dollars!

Your comment that AKSAs are being used in low fi systems is interesting, to say the least.  I won't react to this, except to say it might affront hundreds of AKSA users.....  Should I double the price, Lou?  Gee, wonder how many sales I'd get?  

You put your points well, and I can't see why John - bless his good looking heart - would say you've been pretentious.  You deliver them with the grace and impact of a Baldwin locomotive, and you are coming from an experienced background of audio appreciation and repair.  This sort of forthrightness is admirable, and I doffs me cap...  

Lou, where do you get these caps at reasonable prices in the US?  What about going direct to Japan?  How about the Rubycon ZA series?  They are almost as good, and a lot cheaper.  

Cheers,

Hugh

[mb]

Lou, where do you get these caps at reasonable prices in the US? What about going direct to Japan? How about the Rubycon ZA series? They are almost as good, and a lot cheaper.

Hugh,

Sorry to butt in, but if you're looking for BGs and ZL/ZAs, send me a note, and I might be able to source (at retail prices, unless volumes are high...). At them moment I'm using ZLs and ZAs quite extensively. To me they're *very* different from Silmics and Stargets, but seem similar to the nice Panasonic FCs. Believe it or not, the major downer for the new Rubycons is that they look cheap. B&W, vs. the great navy blue & gold of the FCs! Who would believe that on paper they're generally better spec'd than FCs? Also ZAs are only available in much smaller sizes cf BG.

[Occam]

I, for one, am most interested in the BlackGate upgrade(s). Unfortuneately, just saying upgrade to BlackGates is less than specific; which kind (N,C,VK,FK,PK, Standard???) what voltage ratings. capacitance values..... in which positions? The differing types of Blackgates have distinct impact, depending on their use. Their 'generous' voltage ratings require an 80% voltage use, max. So upgrading the 5 appropriate (not touching the rail main caps or the bootstrap cap) caps will cost $100/channel for the primo N series, and $50/channel for a cheapskate's mix of  FK, C, and a single N. So we're talking $100 or $200 here for a stereo amp. Depending on one's metrics, this might well be an extremly cost effective upgrade. I've never heard anyone denigrate the BGs on this cirle, nor has Hugh on his website.

I would encourage you to share your expertise, but you've not yet shared any information to date. Inquiring minds want to know!

While Hugh offers the Nirvana upgrades, please realize he is trying to earn a lliving, and simply cannot market that which has little probability of supplementing his profits. Unfortuneately, this motly lot here is quite price sensitive. Please realize that vendors such as Steve McCormack charge thousands for their BG upgrades. Nothing stops the end user from buying their  own Blackgates -
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RAM&Category_Code=BG_N
or at Partsconexion.com

and we would all appreciate specific input. Have you or anyone else evaluated the Nichicon KGs?

Any part upgrade, or architectural change, whether in the signal chain or power supply, must be evaluated not only for its absolute benefit, but in comparison to its next best and cheaper competitor. If our metrics were straightforward, and individual changes were orthogonal, optimizing performance for cost would simply be solving a system as a lp problem. But they aren't , they aren't, and it isn't.....

Hugh -
Unfortuneately, the Rubycon ZAs are only available in a 35v max rating constraing their use to the ltp decoupling, the feedback shunt, and possibly the Vbe bypass, not the main rail(s) decoupling.... And the only place I knew of their availability, Pioneer Electronics, is no more. And even there, they required a 16week leadtime special order in quantities of 1-2k/value. I also hear that Australia's switchmode PS industry isn't that large.

[Lou]

Hi Lou,

What type of Black Gates were used for the update you described?

(Just so we all now what size of bank we need to rob    )

Cheers,

Jens

Hi Jens,

I think I used standards, all around.

[Lou]

Hi Lou,

Your comment that AKSAs are being used in low fi systems is interesting, to say the least. I won't react to this, except to say it might affront hundreds of AKSA users..... Should I double the price, Lou? Gee, wonder how many sales I'd get? ...

Hi Hugh,

It might have affronted me a few years ago too, but that made it no less true. People have grown awefully thin skinned, and that is not necessarily a good thing. Thin skinned people tend to be incapable of dealing with reality or even logical arguments as they get miffed and want to pout rather than discuss reality, preceived reality, or even things abstract. They are necessarily locked into an antiintellectual rhelm, the same rhelm the PC Nazis have the American education system locked into. No wonder people can no longer openly discuss anything meaningful...

Be all that as it may, should you double your price? If you live long enough I am sure you will, why rush it?

You said;

"Lou, where do you get these caps at reasonable prices in the US? What about going direct to Japan? How about the Rubycon ZA series? They are almost as good, and a lot cheaper."

I am sure going direct would be impossible unless you were purchasing in very large quantities. I usually buy from Reference Audio Mods, PartsConnexion, or Percy Audio, 2 of the 3 are US based. I have never tried the ZA series, in what way are they almost as good. AFAIK the Black Gates are the only Rubycon caps that use graphite in the electrolitic solution, which is why they are superior. Elna Slimics may be as good, I have not tinkered with them much, but have left some in gear that I have moded. I yanked the Elna Duorex caps and replaced them with Black Gates, it was a good decision.

[Al Garay]

Interesting discussion... Have we answered JimB's question? It was about solder...  everyone who has contributed to this thread should at least provide which solder they used to build their AKSA kit.

Al

[Occam]

Lou,

Thanks, now you're down below $35 for a stereo amp. And what specific subjective changes did you note with the upgrade?

Occam

[Lou]

I, for one, am most interested in the BlackGate upgrade(s). Unfortuneately, just saying upgrade to BlackGates is less than specific; which kind (N,C,VK,FK,PK, Standard???) what voltage ratings.

Unfortunately I do not record such things as I often never revisit a piece of gear, and I really never expected to do so with this amp, unless I decide to buy one to tinker with.

"capacitance values..... "

Same, I believe I used 50 volts for most if not all of them.

"Their 'generous' voltage ratings require an 80% voltage use, max."

That is the first time I have heard that, but thus far I have not had any of them fail.

"So we're talking $100 or $200 here for a stereo amp."

I hope not, I did'nt even charge him for parts. As for the N, where would you use it? All the caps were polarized, and the board had +'s clearly labled for one leg of each cap. Chris had already replaced one cap, this one was much larger than the rest, he may have gone with a larger value, I am not sure.

Chris was not saying that anyone was denigrating BG caps, rather that they were saying that they had little to no effect. There is a difference between not noting an effect and denigrating a product. This is one other reason I feel confident in there being some low res systems being driven by Aksa amps.

Bob Crump has used the Nichicon KG's, obviously not in the Aksa, but he belives them to be superior to most in PS applications.

"but you've not yet shared any information to date."

Not so, I have shared information, it may not be specific enough for your liking, but I did not write it with you in mind! It was general information for people to build upon or ignore as they like. You are welcome to do likewise.

"Any part upgrade, or architectural change, whether in the signal chain or power supply, must be evaluated not only for its absolute benefit, but in comparison to its next best and cheaper competitor."

Well then, I hope you have a lot of spare time, folks are desiging new caps all the time, unless you test them all, you'll not know which is best, which is second best, et. al. Not to mention advances in substrates for semi-conductors, material for resistors, etc. Sounds like if everything on the planet must be tested, you have a VERY full plate, let me know how it all works out. Fortunately I work in a much more black and white world, best I know, verses junk, works, does not work, can afford, cannot afford.

I personally think Aksa amps are a steal! They are one of the very few real bargains in high end audio. That hardlymeans that they are all going into the greatest of systems... One might expect that they might allow people the oppertunity to better evaluate other gear, which certainly should result in a better system over time. This is even more true of those who use BG caps, IMO!

[Lou]

Your comment that AKSAs are being used in low fi systems is interesting, to say the least.  I won't ...

BTW, nor should you! Were I you I'd be screaming from the hill tops that my customers have the best systems! Be that as it may, I would not be at all surprised to find that your gear is the best gear in their system. When they are able to match it will good sources and speakers, they will have some very nice systems indeed, at least if they upgrade some caps! That does go for their CDP's and DAC's and most likely their crossovers as well mind you. Selling to the lowest common denominator is what catapulted VHS over the technically superior Beta tape system. Know what I mean?

That said, make no mistake, I am really intreged buy your gear, it is very Pass like in it's simplicity, and when properly tweaked out, I'd be shocked if it is not a lot like it in sound too, and for a mere fraction of the cost! I do understand that that fraction would change drastically if you went to all BG caps, but I think you should check them out, using your gear in a high res system!

[Marbles]

I have an 80 year old Uncle, a former Marine that landed on every beach in the Pacific in WWII except one, he was down with malaria for that one. ...

Next time you see him, would you tell him I said "Thanks"

Robert Curtis
Fort Wayne, IN

[Lou]

Lou,

Thanks, now you're down below $35 for a stereo amp. And what specific subjective changes did you note with the upgrade?

Occam

Hi Occam,

The sound was noticably fuller bodied, the highs are quite attinuated with the original caps. Now understand that I talked trash about Thiel speakers for a year or two because every time I heard them in a show room, they sounded aweful. Then I went back to Progressive Audio, where I had previously heard them by the way. This time they had them setup using a Spectral amp and preamp, and a little Adcom GCD-700. They sounded great, completely different than I had ever heard them sound before. With that in mind, the Aksa reminds me of Vandersteen speakers. Every time I have heard them, they sounded like my speakers with a comforter tossed over them, though they do have more bass than my speakers. That is how the unmoded Aksa amp sounded to our group. We were stunned and amazed that the mids and lows were as good as they were for an amp that costs what it costs. Yet after a couple dollars worth of caps it may be a contender! I did not have a chance to really A/B it against my Stasis 2, because it was late by then and things were breaking up, but it sure sounded great! I wish I could be more specific, but IMO, when so many picky people are so impressed tends to speak volumes. Some of those guys have systems that eat mine up, 2 have Alon speakers for instance....

[Lou]

I have an 80 year old Uncle, a former Marine that landed on every beach in the Pacific in WWII except one, he was down with malaria for that one. ...

Next time you see him, would you tell him I said "Thanks"

Robert Curtis
Fort Wayne, IN

Hi Robert,

He is very modest. He wonders why I insist on supplying him with audiophile gear. I guess I could tell him it is out of respect, but I think it would terribly embarras him, so I just tell him I enjoy encouraging another audiophile, and there is truth in that too!

[AKSA]

Mervin,

My sincere thanks!  I may take you up on that if I can't get these products in Australia.....

Lou, once again, fascinating.

Eventually the AKSA will be produced for retail sale fully built.  I'm working up to this.  I am aware that it embarasses some of the very good products in the market - this did not just happen, it took years to achieve.  The AKSA is so simple precisely because of the time spent in development, if you get my drift.  There are people with AKSAs who prefer them to tube amps, and that was always the goal.

I am mindful of what you are saying, and you can be sure the caps will be very good on retail AKSAs!

Cheers,

Hugh

[cmscott6]

FWIW it was my AKSA 55N in question here.  I had already added a BG 100uF FK at C3, which tightened up the sound considerably - all across the spectrum.  (Thanks for the suggestion, Hugh.)  Lou and I replaced C2, 4, 7, 10 and 12 with BG Standard caps.  Unfortunately, through some oversight we replaced C4, 10 and 12 with 10uF, 100v instead of 100uF, 50V.  This undoubtedly had something to do with the increase in volume.  The difference in sound was incredible enough that I'll replace the caps with the correct values of BG standards.  I'll let everyone know of any changes.  
By the way, in keeping with the original theme of the post, I used Hugh's supplied solder, as well as Radio Shack 2% silver and 60/40, so mine's basically a mongrel

[Occam]

CMScott6,

Thanks for the clarification. I'd mistakenly assumed a 100w AKSA, hence the comments on the voltage ratings of the BGs.... The rails on the 55 should easily allow the use of 50V BGs.

Some folks swear by RS solder, I generally swear at it.... While my preference is 2%silver Kester '44' eutectic, I believe the quality of the flux (and skill when it comes to melting point) is the major determinant of the joint quality and hence reccomend Kester '44' and Ersin Multicore, in the US, no matter what the composition. While some folks I respect prefer specific lead free silver bearing solders, their higher melting points and the requistite soldering skills demanded, precludes my use of them.

I've never used the 'audiophile' solders...

[Seano]

I used the solder supplied by Hugh.  Given my location and my inclination regarding this ingredient (it is just fancy glue after all) I couldn't really afford or care enough to be picky.

As for Lou's comments about AKSA's in low res systems (though I would've prefered a less dramatic term if I could come up with one) I will agree that I'm probably one of those people.  

None of my gear is cutting edge nor is it big budget ( $300 CD player and $1500 speakers) and I have no doubt that the AKSA 100N is the best bit. I'm not the least bit precious about the system as it's the best thing I have at the time. It can be better but I just don't care enough yet - nor do I have the budget. And I don't particularily care that anyone else thinks there own is better than mine - how do you know? Have you heard my system?

And this is where the tweaking game begins to get rather messy. I've fiddled around with other peoples gear and my system and it has shown some real benefit. A mate's new Rotel CD player and pre amp were both tried out on my Yamaha/AKSA and Krix and the sonic improvement (to our subjective ears) bought about by the CD player was very distinct, the pre-amp less so. The Rotel player was better without the Rotel pre. Because a major part of the system had changed you could hear it.  I've also played about with speaker cables and interconnects and here the results have been less clear - I THINK I've made some improvements but I'm not totally convinced - I do however like the way it sounds. I suspect because my system is not at the sharpest audio edge (remember what Hugh has said about the Nirvana - to get the sonic improvement he's taken the design much closer to the point where it's just possible to it could all go up in smoke) rather it operates within considerable safety margins, it really isn't possible to make anything less than gross changes in order to improve subjective listening pleasure.  So things like teflon coated cables, silver solder and the like are just not gross enough for most of us despite what we might say and think.

So now I'm interested in the prospect up upgrading components within the AKSA - does this count as a 'gross' change like a source replacement or a 'subtle' change like an interconnect replacement?

[Carlman]

So now I'm interested in the prospect up upgrading components within the AKSA - does this count as a 'gross' change like a source replacement or a 'subtle' change like an interconnect replacement?...

I think the changes have been discussed but not broken down into review-type elements in this thread and others.  I get the impression that cap changes are akin to IC/speaker cable changes.  If the design is good, the amp will sound good.  A cap upgrade is a tweak.  It isn't going to transform the gear.

I can tell you that I heard improvements changing the internal wiring of my AKSA 100n.  So, the amp does react well to improvements.  Good speaker cable and IC's helped a lot as well....   My system is revealing enough to detect minor changes so, maybe one day I'll play with new caps.  Sometimes I try tweaks and they're just changes and not improvements.  Luckily, I'm done with my system and it sounds awesome with the AKSA.  

This amp is a REAL FIND! Thanks again, Hugh!

-Carl

P.S. I used Wonder Solder on the final bits Hugh left for me... (he soldered all the boards.)

[Lou]

FWIW it was my AKSA 55N in question here.  I had already added a BG 100uF FK at C3, which tightened up the sound considerably - all across the spectrum.  (Thanks for the suggestion, Hugh.)  Lou and I replaced C2, 4, 7, 10 and 12 with BG Standard caps.  Unfortunately, through some oversight we replaced C4, 10 and 12 with 10uF, 100v instead of 100uF, 50V.  This undoubtedly had something to do with the increase in volume.  The difference in sound was incredible enough that I'll replace the caps with the correc ...

If memory serves, it was no oversight. I think the original caps were rated at 63 volts, I was not sure of the potential they would be seeing, so I just over rated the voltage, and not having any 100uF's, and knowing that a 10uF BG is better at filtering and frequency responce than a 100uF regular cap, I used what I had... It worked splendidly. I am not at all sure, though Hugh would know, if the uF change would increase the gain, as I have not even seen a schematic on this amp.

As to Hugh's comments in another post about this amp taking considerable time/effort/and expertice to build, that is obvious just by the number of junk amps out there... Were it easy to design a good amp, everyone would be doing it. I espescially like the fact that these use so few gain stages, like the FAR more expensive Pass Labs amps.

[Lou]

Hi Occam,

8<"The rails on the 55 should easily allow the use of 50V BGs."

I waited for clairification from Chris, but I was pertty sure I had used 100V caps because the originals were rated for 63 volts, and that is the case.

8<"While my preference is 2%silver Kester '44' eutectic"

Which is what I used in Chris's amp to solder in the BG caps. I have used "Wonder Solder" as it came with my Ellis Audio 1801b speaker kit.