[Dan Banquer]

I have always been rather curious about all of this kind of stuff in audio and I would like to ask peoples opinions about this.
It appears that audio/video and home theater folks expect that they will have to provide added "power conditioning" for their systems. I have also not really noted much of any consumer demand for manufacturers to put "power conditioning" inside the units that are purchased. This lack of demand for this does have me a bit puzzled.
Outside of consumer and most of pro audio most manufacturers for assorted electronic instrumentation will provide some amount of power conditioning usually in the form of RFI/EMI filtering. Computer power supplies will have their own filters for attenuating the HF that the supply and the computer generates so it will not come back out to the line. This same filter will work to a similar extent on keeping that same HF out of the computer.
Telecom and server applications will use extensive "power conditioning" but this is primarily done so that the system will survive extreme circumstances and still keep running.
 What I would like to know is what are your expectations of the equipment you purchase and why as it applies to this subject.
This is not meant to be a technical discussion by any means, this is just about your opinion and expectations.
              d.b.

[ctviggen]

What I've done is tried to prevent noise from getting onto the lines.  I use a some of these:

http://www.smarthome.com/1626-10.html

In order to prevent some noise from entering the system.  So, in my case, I try to reduce noise going into the house's wiring. 

As for the equipment I purchase, I hope that it has some level of noise resistance (power supply rejection ratio).

[Phil]

As a consumer, I don't expect major surge protection within equipment but expect power conditioning to the extent that it affects sound reproduction.  It seems from my own experience, that this is more successfully accomplished for analog vs. digital.  So, for example, while my amp is plugged directly into the wall, the digital rig is plugged into a balanced power unit.  The source is very, very good in itself, but the large, external balance power provides more finesse.  And for musical enjoyment, that is important (to me).

The most successful implementation I have experienced was with my Supratek preamp (no longer used since the source doesn't need a preamp).   The Supratek has a separately housed power supply.  Different power cords and different conditioning never affected the sound.  

I suppose my goal would be to just plug it into the wall and don't worry about the cord, but the best implementation (multiple boxes) runs counter to my desire for simplicity -- meaning the fewer boxes and connections/connectors the better.  

Not sure if that answers your question, which is a good one to ask.
Phil

[Scott F.]

Hi Dan,

Good topic. 

When it comes to integrated power filtering or conditioning, I haven't seen much at all in audio gear. I've seen a select few that have used those IEC females that CorCom makes. The trouble with those are their filtering specs and current limiting characteristics. It's not until you get into the much larger CorCom filters that they become useful (IMO) for audio applications.

It would be nice to see gear that has a reasonable filter in it though it would raise the price of the gear by a fair sum. Now you've got an amplifier designer having to do R&D on filtration. Not that filtration design is that difficult but they surely would want to optimize the filter for their gear so it sounds as good as possible.

That I think brings us back to the niche market for power filters and conditioners. Not everybody wants or needs to use filtration. The average consumer, even audiophile, gets by just fine without one. It is only the truly obsessed that can't live without one (I count myself as one). The other thing to consider is that a modest rig, what most of us consider a 'starter rig', won't reap the same benefits from power filtration that a high resolution rig will because the starter rig isn't resolute enough.

In the end I'd hazard a guess that the manufacturers haven't included them in their gear because of cost. As you know, it's dog eat dog out there. If you take a $2000 amplifier and have to raise the price by $500 for integrated filtration, your amp now looks less attractive to the price buyers.

[Dan Banquer]

"In the end I'd hazard a guess that the manufacturers haven't included them in their gear because of cost. As you know, it's dog eat dog out there. If you take a $2000 amplifier and have to raise the price by $500 for integrated filtration, your amp now looks less attractive to the price buyers. "

Integrated filtration costs a lot less than that; even at retail level.
            d.b.

[BobM]

The only power conditioning I have ever seen incorporated into a component itself is in my preamp (Audio Prism Mantissa) and the tube amp driving my tweeters (Audio Prism Debut II). Audio Prism incorporated its Quiet Line filters right into the power supply components on each. I guess it makes sense, since this is one of their corporate goldpieces and if it doesn't work well for them then ...

I would expect that PS Audio would do the same in their components, but maybe not.

Enjoy,
Bob

[JoshK]

Are you referring to Y filters as in IEC Corcoms or are you also speaking about voltage regulation and ripple rejection? 

[AB]

The only power conditioning I have ever seen incorporated into a component itself is in my preamp (Audio Prism Mantissa) and the tube amp driving my tweeters (Audio Prism Debut II). Audio Prism incorporated its Quiet Line filters right into the power supply components on each. I guess it makes sense, since this is one of their corporate goldpieces and if it doesn't work well for them then ...

I would expect that PS Audio would do the same in their components, but maybe not.

Enjoy,
Bob

The Levinson 33H Monoblocks had AC regeneration built in. From Stereophile's review;

"The '33H also employs an AC regeneration system for the input and driver stages. This drains off a portion of the ± DC power from the main supply, powering an oscillator circuit that generates pure-sinewave AC. This uncontaminated AC is rectified, filtered, and regulated. You could say the heart of the amplifier is a mini power station designed to deliver AC of uncompromised purity."

Just another example.

[Dan Banquer]

Are you referring to Y filters as in IEC Corcoms or are you also speaking about voltage regulation and ripple rejection? 

I am going to assume for the moment that "power conditioning" is mostly about AC line filtering and surge suppression, as this appears to be the most popular and cost effective. I am going to exclude voltage regulation for the moment.
             d.b.

[NewBuyer]

...I have also not really noted much of any consumer demand for manufacturers to put "power conditioning" inside the units that are purchased. This lack of demand for this does have me a bit puzzled...What I would like to know is what are your expectations of the equipment you purchase and why as it applies to this subject...

Hi Dan Banquer,

I believe that most consumers (myself included) are very unclear on what the issues really must be, with power conditioning. Common consumer questions would include, for instance: Why is it important? Does it really matter? If it is so important, then wouldn't the manufacturers have already considered this, and incorporated it into my equipment? Exactly what can be expected as a result? Should it really have to cost a fortune? (etc)

If it really is an important issue, and manufacturers are intentionally neglecting this aspect, I think most consumers would be very disappointed to learn this. It would mean that manufacturers are purposely making equipment with inferior power supplies/conditioning, with noticeably faulty/crippled performance as a result. Most would have paid some extra to have these "missing" important internal parts actually installed into their components, and actually thought they had already done so.

Perhaps it is an important issue, and manufacturers are not ignoring it - but instead actually are incorporating the appropriate power filtration within their components. After all, we don't exactly have a list of manufacturers who are, and are not, doing so.

Or perhaps it isn't really an important issue at all, and power conditioning is just a fad product right now, designed to take advantage of gullible consumers who just simply don't know any better and can be easily manipulated by suggestion and sales hype (perhaps this is most people, including me!  ).

Musical Fidelity has made several great audio pieces with choke-regulated power supplies, which they advertise as having many benefits including acting as an excellent mains noise filter (thus no separate power conditioner needed). For instance, have a look at their A5cr power amplifier, which has full dual mono choke regulation.

Monster Power is also advertising their power amps as having power-cleaning built into the units.

PS Audio did this too for a while, but I think they later found more money in selling their already-established separate power conditioning product lines (?)

Anyway, I would certainly pay some extra for appropriate power filtration built into an audio/video component, and I hope manufacturers haven't really been neglecting this aspect when designing their products.

[Dan Banquer]

I am going to take a moment to give a technical comment on some of the issues you raised in your post.
1. Most manufacturers for consumer audio and video do nothing or next to nothing as far as any HF "hash" filtering on the AC line or surge suppression, especially when it it comes to analog components (pre amps and power amps). This is left up to the consumer to provide whatever they feel is necessary. I should note that practically no one includes anything for surge suppression for just about any piece of equipment.
2. The choke input power supply can have some effect on HF "hash" reduction, However this is generally the more expensive alternative and also will consume the most in "real estate" (takes up the most space). This type of supply goes back over 60 years or more, and I personally considered this type years ago but rejected it for a number of reasons. One of which is I would prefer not to let the HF into the box, never mind the supply transformer.
Thanks for your post, I am beginning to realize that most of consumers expectations in this area are NOT being met by the industry.
                    d.b.

[LightFire]

Answering the original question:

Surge protection/voltage regulation are the only meaningful features in a power conditioner. And it is not for some sound improvement non sense but for equipment protection.

[Dan Banquer]

Answering the original question:

Surge protection/voltage regulation are the only meaningful features in a power conditioner. And it is not for some sound improvement non sense but for equipment protection.

I'll disagree with that. If enough RFI/EMI does get into your system than you will have added noise. If it's high enough you will actually get "break through" and hear the transmission. There have been numerous articles on this, including the June 1995 AES journal, and a number of articles from Analog Devices among the many.
Please note that linear power supplies have very good low frequency rejection but as frequency rises the rejection goes down proportionally.
If you don't think that added noise is an issue then you certainly entitled to your opinion. It certainly isn't mine, and you can include good chunk of the recording/mixing and mastering industry along with that.
            d.b.

[Phil]

Dan,
I'm a bit confused/thick.  To take care of the hash, you are suggesting something exterior to the equipment, correct?  So the equipment manufacturer needn't worry about it.  Or are you proposing handling it externally and internally?

Phil

[Dan Banquer]

Dan,
I'm a bit confused/thick.  To take care of the hash, you are suggesting something exterior to the equipment, correct?  So the equipment manufacturer needn't worry about it.  Or are you proposing handling it externally and internally?

Phil

I am not really proposing anything in this thread. That's what I am waiting to hear about from folks like you.
However; as I pointed out in earlier post RFI/EMI filtering and surge suppression rarely put into consumer audio/video equipment, so the user is required to be responsible for that. Do you think that should change or not?
               d.b.

[aerius]

Dan,
I'm a bit confused/thick.  To take care of the hash, you are suggesting something exterior to the equipment, correct?  So the equipment manufacturer needn't worry about it.  Or are you proposing handling it externally and internally?

Phil

There's a couple ways of looking at it, you want to keep hash & noise out of the equipment and you don't want the equipment to generate its own hash & noise either.  For example, you don't want the noise from a dimmer switch or crappy computer power supplies getting into the audio gear through the power lines.  On top of that, let's say you're using directly heated triodes such as a 300B, you don't want to run the filaments of the 300B with a noisy switchmode power supply since that'll dump a ton of hash right into the tube itself, that's an example of internal noise.

So to answer the question, noise & hash has to be handled both inside & out, it doesn't make sense to feed the equipment perfect AC when it's its own noise machine.  Going the other way, you don't want to feed your gear dirty power even if it could filter out nearly everything, because the key word is "nearly".  The noise can still get into the circuit by coupling through the enclosure and the air, it is in most cases prohibitively hard and expensive to get rid of.

In short, feed the gear clean power and design the gear so it doesn't create too much noise of its own.

[Dan Banquer]

Dan,
I'm a bit confused/thick.  To take care of the hash, you are suggesting something exterior to the equipment, correct?  So the equipment manufacturer needn't worry about it.  Or are you proposing handling it externally and internally?

Phil

There's a couple ways of looking at it, you want to keep hash & noise out of the equipment and you don't want the equipment to generate its own hash & noise either.  For example, you don't want the noise from a dimmer switch or crappy computer power supplies getting into the audio gear through the power lines.  On top of that, let's say you're using directly heated triodes such as a 300B, you don't want to run the filaments of the 300B with a noisy switchmode power supply since that'll dump a ton of hash right into the tube itself, that's an example of internal noise.

So to answer the question, noise & hash has to be handled both inside & out, it doesn't make sense to feed the equipment perfect AC when it's its own noise machine.  Going the other way, you don't want to feed your gear dirty power even if it could filter out nearly everything, because the key word is "nearly".  The noise can still get into the circuit by coupling through the enclosure and the air, it is in most cases prohibitively hard and expensive to get rid of.

In short, feed the gear clean power and design the gear so it doesn't create too much noise of its own.

That's one of the most intelligent reponses so far. Thank you.
                    d.b.

[Phil]

Aerius,
Thanks.  Very sensible and well stated. 

It seems to me that tracking down where ALL the noise is coming from is difficult for the average audiophile.  For example, it was very clear that running my gear on a shared circuit with a light dimmer and a ceiling fan was adding noise.  Turn off the light and/or the fan and the noise went away.  A dedicated circuit cured that problem.  But, even a dedicated line carries noise it seems.  So I added a balance power unit for the source only.  The amp was plugged into the shared outlet.  That worked even better.

Out of curiosity, I added another dedicated circuit (much less expensive than upgrading a power cord).  Separating digital and analog made a big difference.  This change has me puzzled though.  I assumed that the balance power gear was not only filtering the noise coming into the digital source, but also any noise that might be created by the source and introduced into the amp via the shared dedicated outlet. 

Why do you think this worked as well as it did (not complaining, but curious about the reason).  And for those who don't believe in this stuff and think it is all in my head, that is fine with me since my ears are connected to my head.

Phil
 

[Dan Banquer]

Aerius,
Thanks.  Very sensible and well stated. 

It seems to me that tracking down where ALL the noise is coming from is difficult for the average audiophile.  For example, it was very clear that running my gear on a shared circuit with a light dimmer and a ceiling fan was adding noise.  Turn off the light and/or the fan and the noise went away.  A dedicated circuit cured that problem.  But, even a dedicated line carries noise it seems.  So I added a balance power unit for the source only.  The amp was plugged into the shared outlet.  That worked even better.

Out of curiosity, I added another dedicated circuit (much less expensive than upgrading a power cord).  Separating digital and analog made a big difference.  This change has me puzzled though.  I assumed that the balance power gear was not only filtering the noise coming into the digital source, but also any noise that might be created by the source and introduced into the amp via the shared dedicated outlet. 

Why do you think this worked as well as it did (not complaining, but curious about the reason).  And for those who don't believe in this stuff and think it is all in my head, that is fine with me since my ears are connected to my head.

Phil
 

I'll hazard a guess that the added dedicated line for the digital prevented any "crosstalk" through the AC Line if you will, from the digital units to the analog units. I also suspect that the additional line in your case would not have been needed if you used a filter/surge suppressor such as Tripplite Isobar Ultra for the digital. They have "isolated" banks so that each bank is somewhat isolated from the other by the hash filters in the Isobar. Some Audiophiles don't seem to like the Tripplite Isobar, and Hi End Audiophile dealers truly despise them. I've been using them for over 15 years both at home and on the job. You can get Isobar Ultra 8 for under 50.00 from www.provantage.com
I also strongly suspect if all the units that you owned had RFI/EMI filtering in them, you would have only required one "dedicated" line for your stereo system. Just to note: I only use one dedicated line for my stereo and bench and I have no issues.
Hope this helps;
               d.b.

[NewBuyer]

...Some Audiophiles don't seem to like the Tripplite Isobar, and Hi End Audiophile dealers truly despise them. I've been using them for over 15 years both at home and on the job. You can get Isobar Ultra 8 for under 50.00 from www.provantage.com...

Just wondering please, what issues do some audiophiles and dealers have with the Isobar?