[Dan Banquer]

...Some Audiophiles don't seem to like the Tripplite Isobar, and Hi End Audiophile dealers truly despise them. I've been using them for over 15 years both at home and on the job. You can get Isobar Ultra 8 for under 50.00 from www.provantage.com...

Just wondering please, what issues do some audiophiles and dealers have with the Isobar?

They are cheap, they do what they say they will do, and they come with a lifetime warranty. Some people have posted that they don't like the "sound" of the units. Well, they are entitled to their opinion, but my take on it, when used with a properly wired three prong outlet is that it really has no "sound" as far as I can tell. In addition; if you have spiking and a fair amount of HF hash on the AC lines this unit does do what it claims to do.
                       d.b.

[JuicyMusic]

This is a pretty interesting topic to a manufacturer such as myself. When questions about this are asked of me about our products, I always ask, "what problem are you trying to solve?" Often the answer is vague.

A few have told me they're convinced that unless the AC power is perfectly regulated, perfectly sinusoidal, and perfectly noiseless and distortionless their equipment performance will suffer. I am open to all the possibilities in audio, but admittedly some are harder to rationalize than others. In a typical tube amp or preamp power supply (of ours) there is an inlet RFI filter, a power transformer, tube rectifier, choke and series RC filtering of quite substantial proportions to produce several legs of clean DC power. This DC power running the circuit has been significantly "distanced" if you will, from the AC power. Such that, normal AC line conditions don't impact the circuit performance way down the line at the DC legs. e.g. Harmonic distortion of the AC voltage can not be seen down here.

Cost per se is not an issue to me. Value is an issue. So, increases in cost ought to increase the value of the unit. And since the only value our gear has is the sound, it follows that any purposeful increase in cost (putting aside the mechanical bits) ought to make a corresponding increase in sound quality. I don't know the added cost of adding a "small AC power plant" inside each unit. Producing perfectly regulated AC with zero distortion, and zero noise would not be cheap. I am skeptical of the value of this proposition. While some consumers might have horrible power conditions, where this would help, I think most are in "normal" power areas where this added cost would be a burden with negligible value. Having five or six components in your system, each with their own internal "power plant?" Sounds expensive.

It would seem then, that if a consumer identifies a particular AC power problem, that the external or third-party product is the correct place to put the value exchange. But I will certainly be interested to follow here what people are thinking.

[zybar]

What do people think of using some industrial equipment instead of audiophile equipment?

For example, how about some of the products from MGE?

http://www.mgeups.com/products/pdt120/powerc/tpz100/t100.htm

Here is their datasheet:

http://www.mgeups.com/products/pdt120/powerc/tpz100/t100data.pdf

This would seem to do all the things necessary at a very reasonable cost.

George

[jeffreybehr]

This subject interests me.  I've paid little attention to AC-power problems.  In decades past, I made sure everything was plugged into one of several name-brand outlet strip/'surge suppressors', but that's about all.  About 3 years ago, I suffered a relapse of audiofoolia nervosa and have been spending lots of time and money rebuilding my system... http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vdone&1126390461&read&keyw&zzjeffrey%20s .  I've never been golden-eared, being generally unable to hear short-term differences between pieces of equipment, but I am sensitive to the overall sounds of my system, and it certainly continues to improve as I 'nibble' at it.

I now have 3 dedicated AC lines wired with 11g. conductors into the music room.  They solved some ground-loop problems, but I still have to lift ground pins of the 3 poweramps.

I believe that the quality of AC delivered to homes varies substantially over the country, among different suppliers of power, and then among homes.  I think that each individual must handle his/her AC-power problems as he/she percieves and chooses, and that equipment manufacturers ought not to be increasing the cost of their equipment for everyone by including power-conditioning/filtering functions.

As my system improves, I can more-readily hear the improvements from such things as high-quality powercords, so I think it's time I addressed my AC power.  I've decided to check out the PS Audio Quintessence Power Center... http://www.psaudio.com/products/quintessence_power_center.asp ...their most-capable unit without a power regenerator, for all my frontend, preamp, digital, TV, etc., gear.  For my 3 poweramps plugged directly into the wall outputs, I'll use a trio of Noise Harvesters... http://www.psaudio.com/products/noiseharvester.asp ...which I'll plug into those 3 separate AC lines.  Will I hear the differences?  We'll see...er...or hear.

[Occam]

I now have 3 dedicated AC lines wired with 11g. conductors into the music room.  They solved some ground-loop problems, but I still have to lift ground pins of the 3 poweramps.
........ 
I've decided to check out the PS Audio Quintessence Power Center... http://www.psaudio.com/products/quintessence_power_center.asp ...their most-capable unit without a power regenerator....

Jeff,

As a personal favor, I'd like to ask you to never admit to defeating required chassis safety grounding on Audiocircle threads aa for 2 reasons -
1. This will cause Dan to launch into his inevitable (and justified) screed on the piss poor state of consumer grounding and its solution.
2. You're free to potentially kill yourself, as you're knowledgeable enough wrt the implications, but Social Darwinism and efforts to cull the gene pool can be viewed as a political advocacy and are not allowed in AudioCircle.

The PS Audio Quintessence is an enhanced Duet/Quintet, with an additional shared stage of extended (downwards) filtering. Unfortunately, PS is experiencing engineering teething pains, and I believe it is not currently available.

Regards,
Paul

[Phil]

Seems to me that manufacturers of quality equipment do take lots of time and effort to "produce several legs of clean DC power," as stated below.  So, whenever I add further conditioning in front of those efforts (a balanced power unit made specifically for sources, for example), I wonder about what the manufacturer was using for power when they voiced their gear.   Balanced power, to my ears, significantly reduces noise that I can hear in the HF and midrange of digital sources, even when using dedicated circuits/outlets.  But, with some gear, balanced power can also reduce the PRAT or dynamics.  Swapping power cables add another variable.   Then there are issues of simple layout -- keeping speaker cables away from power cables works well in my system.  There also seems to be an issue of static or something else which seems to clog the system over time.  Unplugging everything for a while works well.  The full glide tone of the Ayre Irrational but Efficacious disk works well too (really).  One manufacturer includes the ability to generate a glide tone in their equipment.  I've read about one manufacturer that believes in special capacitors that don't have "memory."  What does it all mean?  

So there are all these variables, and my audio nervosa makes me want some kind of diagnostic tool to be able to understand how to proceed, althoug trial and error have worked too.

Phil

[jeffreybehr]

Paul 'Occam':  "As a personal favor, I'd like to ask you to never admit to defeating required chassis safety grounding on Audiocircle threads  for 2 reasons -
1. This will cause Dan to launch into his inevitable (and justified) screed on the piss poor state of consumer grounding and its solution.
2. You're free to potentially kill yourself, as you're knowledgeable enough wrt the implications, but Social Darwinism and efforts to cull the gene pool can be viewed as a political advocacy and are not allowed in AudioCircle."

OK...I guess.  And you too are free to express your opinions on lifting grounds, but LOTS of us do it AND survive to old age, and LOTs of manufacturers indicate that it may be necessary and is OK.  So perhaps you could be a little less black-and-white in expressing your opinions.   

An equipment dealer recommended that I replace the green-ground IEC-inlet-to-chassis wire with a pair of large diodes going 2 directions, but I haven't yet pursued that.  Anyone have an opinion on that?  And on which diodes to use?

[Dan Banquer]

"OK...I guess.  And you too are free to express your opinions on lifting grounds, but LOTS of us do it AND survive to old age, and LOTs of manufacturers indicate that it may be necessary and is OK.  So perhaps you could be a little less black-and-white in expressing your opinions.   

An equipment dealer recommended that I replace the green-ground IEC-inlet-to-chassis wire with a pair of large diodes going 2 directions, but I haven't yet pursued that.  Anyone have an opinion on that?  And on which diodes to use?"

To all who are reading this please note the following: According to the Insurance companies about 30 to 50 people die every year from deliberately lifting grounds that are not supposed to be lifted. Any manufacturer who recommends this should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the as far as I am concerned.
The user has a very simple solution to this problem which is to use line level transformers, and I don't care what brand you use.

And last but not least the pair of  large diodes in the earth ground line will block DC so If a short develops that is DC I would expect the diodes to block it and leave a charge on the chassis for the user to get shocked.

Personally I would love to have folks who recommend this dangerous crap to be prosecuted because good sounding audio does not have to dangerous to the users or their families.

This type of post just really piss me off, and the near total lack of any common sense participation from the moderator on this forum is a disservice to members of AC.
                           d.b.

[NewBuyer]

...The user has a very simple solution to this problem which is to use line level transformers...

What about the Hum X product by Ebtech Audio, this would be perhaps another solution? I've always had good results with their Hum Eliminator products too...

...In a typical tube amp or preamp power supply (of ours) there is an inlet RFI filter, a power transformer, tube rectifier, choke and series RC filtering of quite substantial proportions to produce several legs of clean DC power. This DC power running the circuit has been significantly "distanced" if you will, from the AC power. Such that, normal AC line conditions don't impact the circuit performance way down the line at the DC legs. e.g. Harmonic distortion of the AC voltage can not be seen down here...

To me, this is an example of a manufacturer who already has built power conditioning into the unit, so an extra power conditioner would not be needed for that unit. Others agree?

Edit: Knowing that a manufacturer has built quality power conditioning into their product (RFI inlet filter, choke, series R/C, appropriate ferrites, DC filtering, etc) makes me much more interested in buying their product, and paying a premium for it. Just speaking for myself here, of course.

[TheChairGuy]

To all who are reading this please note the following: According to the Insurance companies about 30 to 50 people die every year from deliberately lifting grounds that are not supposed to be lifted. Any manufacturer who recommends this should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the as far as I am concerned.
The user has a very simple solution to this problem which is to use line level transformers, and I don't care what brand you use.

And last but not least the pair of  large diodes in the earth ground line will block DC so If a short develops that is DC I would expect the diodes to block it and leave a charge on the chassis for the user to get shocked.

Personally I would love to have folks who recommend this dangerous crap to be prosecuted because good sounding audio does not have to dangerous to the users or their families.

This type of post just really piss me off, and the near total lack of any common sense participation from the moderator on this forum is a disservice to members of AC.
                           d.b.

DB,

I am not the moderator of Two Channel, but a Global one.  Just let me put some perspective regarding your statement.

Paul/Occam has adequately addressed the issue of lifting the grounding pins - I think this should prove a satisfactory caution about this issue.

The topic is one of more scientific in nature, best explored in the place set aside for it - The Lab.  Carlman (the mod of Two Channel), nor myself, nor a few of the other Global Moderators are engineers, nor accomplished DIY'ers.  We are enthusiasts giving of our time here and Two Channel is, typically, and enthusiast circle. 

So, thanks to Occam this issue has been well addressed...for without his input, we non-technical moderators would not have known of the seriousness of this issue. 

I don't apologize for being a Marketing major; nor should you admonish a moderator for not being technically oriented on Two Channel.  Occam made a statement of caution and now you have - thank you both.

What you believe to be common sense is that only to you because you are a trained EE.  It is not so common sensical to many of us.

Now, back to the subject at hand 

[gme109]

I have always been rather curious about all of this kind of stuff in audio and I would like to ask peoples opinions about this.
It appears that audio/video and home theater folks expect that they will have to provide added "power conditioning" for their systems. I have also not really noted much of any consumer demand for manufacturers to put "power conditioning" inside the units that are purchased. This lack of demand for this does have me a bit puzzled.
Outside of consumer and most of pro audio most manufacturers for assorted electronic instrumentation will provide some amount of power conditioning usually in the form of RFI/EMI filtering. Computer power supplies will have their own filters for attenuating the HF that the supply and the computer generates so it will not come back out to the line. This same filter will work to a similar extent on keeping that same HF out of the computer.
Telecom and server applications will use extensive "power conditioning" but this is primarily done so that the system will survive extreme circumstances and still keep running.
 What I would like to know is what are your expectations of the equipment you purchase and why as it applies to this subject.
This is not meant to be a technical discussion by any means, this is just about your opinion and expectations.
              d.b.

Would it not be cheaper in the long run, to buy one separate "power conditioning" unit that feeds ALL of your equipment, vs. having a manufacture put "power conditioning" inside each individual piece of equipment? I believe so.

[eico1]

Would it not be cheaper in the long run, to buy one separate "power conditioning" unit that feeds ALL of your equipment, vs. having a manufacture put "power conditioning" inside each individual piece of equipment? I believe so.

In that case, all of the components plugged into a single iso-strip could contaminate each other. Also,the price of incorperating isolation to each equiment is much less expensive than a low cost cable. Check out Corcom on the web.

steve

[NewBuyer]

In that case, all of the components plugged into a single iso-strip could contaminate each other. Also,the price of incorperating isolation to each equiment is much less expensive than a low cost cable. Check out Corcom on the web.

steve

Thanks for that Corcom reference, they seem to have some really nice solutions there...

[warnerwh]

The Isobar I use keeps all receptacles separate from one another and only cost about 70 bucks I think so no problem from components contaminating one another.

[Dan Banquer]

As Aerius pointed out, and I agree, the best in "power conditioning" comes at both ends, in the unit and in the outlet strip.
However, consumers don't always get that choice as some of us have noticed. One of the reasons I use the Tripplite Isobar is that it does have semi isolated outlets that have HF filters for each bank that cascade through each bank of outlets. This allows one to use one bank ( two outlets) for wall wart power supplies that are not exactly known for being well filtered. My wall wart supply for my squeezebox and the D Link ethernet server are prime examples.
So what ever "power conditioner" you choose to purchase I would recommend units with isolated filters for the units and wall warts that require them. Or, for the DIY folks who want to build their own, companies such as Corcom, Schurter, Delta, Qualtek, etc etc. who make those "cans" that can be easily mounted in a metal enclosure is certainly an option.
Hope this helps;
              d.b.

[Dan Banquer]

"What about the Hum X product by Ebtech Audio, this would be perhaps another solution? I've always had good results with their Hum Eliminator products too..."

I have no idea at the moment just exactly how they do this or just how well this works. If anyone has one of these that they would to send me I would like to open one up examination.
               d.b.

[BobRex]

I'd like to try a different take on this....  Last year I got nailed by a lightning strike.  It took out my spa controller, the house thermostat, a controller board in my security system, a regulator board in my heat pump, and last but not least, part of the power supply on one of my amps.  My amps are Welborne Moondogs (2A3 SETs that I built from a kit) so I was able to diagnose the problem and replace the necessary parts fairly quickly.

Since then, I purchased a PS Audio Power Director.  While I purchased this primarily for the surge protection, I have noticed audible improvements; such as a less grain, a quiter background, and the 60Hz hum endemic to many SETs was reduced to almost inaudible.
The PD uses 3 of PS Audio's old style ultimate outlets to isolate 3 banks of outlets, all of which are not current restricted.  So one bank runs my amps, another my low level analog (tt, phono stage, and line stage), and the last my digital and video.

"Conditioning" at this level I understand, but when the talk veers towards expensive plugs and sockets (can you say Oyade?), ridiculous sized power cords (8-10 guage to a pre-amp???), or microwave absorbing beads (Fe-Si) and copper bus bars (can you say Hydra?), I gotta wonder what's going on.

[chrisl]

What brands are users of balanced and regulated power using?  SEems BPT, Monster and Furman are the biggies...any experiences with these or others?

[bacobits1]

For the last 6 years I have been using a Price Wheeler, Brick Wall Line filter and just forgot about it and never looked back.
I went through a bunch of $$ line conditioners, Power Wedge, TripLite etc etc.


D