[Robert C. Schult]

GUYS! I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT FUSE AND PROTECTION OR CRANKING IT LOUDER TO BLOW MY SPEAKERS! I AM TALKING ABOUT SOUND QUALITY OF A FUSE IN LINE!

Hi Budyog.

I hear your question. To answer, yes, I've seen fuses. You're correct that they use wire in 'em. Why do you want take them out? You won't get music to your speakers. DON'T DO IT! Fuses don't do anything unless they're attacked in a circuit. Same thing with a 60w light bulb. (Other watt light bulbs too. They also work on 120v lines. Fuses are different like that though and won't stay lit very long. Slow blows are better.) Rather, it would be better to go with mono blocks. This will get you more fuses so essentially your speakers will see one big fuse. Then you can play it very loud.

If someone wants to PM me with a picture of a light bulb, I'll post it.

Here's a picture of a fuse:



This one is kind of short. If you get longer ones, they'll last longer before you blow them up but I don't know why you want to play fuses so loud. Why not just sit down closer or move the speakers around to listen louder. Are headphones an option?

For what it's worth, I won't go to rock concerts where they use fuses in the amplifiers.

Cheers!

Robert
(do I dare?...)RSAD

[Robert C. Schult]

Thanks Jeff...That helped!

Here's a great example. You can even see the stuff in it that makes it work!

A picture of a light bulb:



COOL!...Here's a close up. See the stuff in it?:






 

[lonewolfny42]

A picture of a " lit " light bulb:



...............................

[Robert C. Schult]

WOW! You guys ROCK! This is great!

Could some of you give the spec's on some of these?

[lonewolfny42]

The yellow one is a bug light.....you don't want that one....
Here's the spec's for it.....

Specifications
Light Output:    475 lumens
Energy Used:    14 watts
Average Lifetime:    6,000 hours
Volts:    120
Bulb Type:    A19
Base Type:    Medium E26 Standard
Color Temperature:    3,000K
CRI:    82
Length:    4.75 inches

[Robert C. Schult]

A picture of a " lit " light bulb:



...............................

I've heard of those before Chris....

The fiend "Blue Bulbs".

My brother had those once. Advice says stay away from them if you can.

[lonewolfny42]

My brother had a couple of those once. Advice says stay away from them if you can.

Hmmmmm...... .....worked well at Kmart......

[Robert C. Schult]

Tim, I didn't think of this but Chris is right (Thanks Chris. W/O your doing some homework, disaster surley would have ensued):



Why would you want to use a 14w bug light in a 160 watt power amp?

Frank?

Seems like something like a beefy search light would play louder (it's way more powerful than a 160 watt-er amp -this is good, and it's military grade for reliability.):



Budyog, use one of these instead of a piss-ant fuse and your done! You'll also be able to play your music as loud as you freakin' want since that seems to be the issue for you.

Robert
(screw it....)RSAD

[Robert C. Schult]

Chris,

My brother had a couple of those once. Advice says stay away from them if you can.

Hmmmmm...... .....worked well at Kmart......

I don't mean to be a smart a** here but you know, instead of going off topic and hijacking the thread, why don't you start your own lame thread in the Marketplace if you want to talk about shopping and, on top of that, plugging Kmart Nice try though. (I'm betting it would be more than kind and even generous if the moderators were to move your post to the Marketsquare - where it belongs.)

Must you be reminded this is an audio board - not a girly man shopping chit-chat at some discount mega store

[lonewolfny42]

My brother had a couple of those once. Advice says stay away from them if you can.

Hmmmmm...... .....worked well at Kmart......

Chris, I don't mean to be a smart a** here but you know, instead of going off topic and hijacking the thread, why don't you start your own lame thread in the Marketplace if you want to talk about shopping and, on top of that, plugging Kmart Nice try though.

Must you be reminded this is an audio board 

Good idea Robert....thanks... (50% off on X'mas wrapping paper)...

[Robert C. Schult]

 

[shep]

Into the lion's den...I thought the man's question was reasonable and could have been treated with a bit more respect and less heavy handed or flippant. So any can anyone without an attitude to grind answer him (and me too?) LIKE do those pricey fuses make an audible difference? If so why? If not than end of story. You know, some of us DO like snake oil  aa. Is that all right or do we have to get beaten up every time we ask a question that appears reasonable to us? (and slink away mortified when we're told to grow up and go back to school)

[Robert C. Schult]

Gosh Shep, I hope one of your fingers weren't pointed at me me. I thought it was a pretty good question too. I found it pretty funny though how many times Bud needed to clarify and ask the question again. It was like everybody jumped off a cliff and landed somewhere else. I was just having fun and being more absurd about it.

Personally, I get the whole fuse thing. Though this isn't really the topic, I think the "Snake Oil" $750.00 fuses offer a meaningful sonic improvement. So much so as a matter of fact that I've gone goofy and by-passed all the fuses in all my gear. I figure if 'dem purty fuses sound better - they do, then no fuse at all's got to sound better - it does. Not earth shattering difference but enough that I wouldn't want to go back. I hear the benefits though I acknowledge at some point, there may be consequence for the benefits. So far, I'm good. I watch the weather pretty good and keep an eye on what my gear's doing.

I don't know exactly why S.N. fuses make a difference. Ask me about cabling though or ask Steve about speakers and we go...  I have my suspisions about the fuse thing and I suppose others who actually offer these have a better and more articulate spiel than I can offer. Check some of the sites that offer these. They've gotta be saying more than "Gold toppers makes our fuse really guuud. Buy 'em now fer on sale four $275.00 and get a free Gumby. Hurry...our fuses won't last."

Cheers!

Robert
RSAD

[shep]

grumble grumble toil and trouble. Thanks. Now we're getting somewhere! Now anybody have a cheaper source for these things so naive people like me can try them out? Wasn't pointing fingers anywhere specific. Cynicism has it's place here just as does innocence. Takes all kinds right? It's good to warn off the unwary and gullible but I bet lots of advances in this field have faced "you can't, you musn't, forget it". There's no fuse in my t-mp, none in my speakers, two in my cdp. I'm willing to be the burnt offering. I by-passed the fuses in my maggies years ago. Never melted, sounded better. No small children around
and it's my equiptment so my risk!

[Gordy]

Cooper-Bussmann ceramic fuses have a rep for 'sounding' better than the glass types, haven't compared them myself... http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/SearchResults.asp?sid=45945A80129F617F&i=0&in_dym=1&Ntt=cooper+bussmann+ceramic&N=0&Ntk=Primary

[budyog]

I am sure, thanks to the Light bulb people, I lost Frank!

I will have a whole new respect for any questioned asked here on AC from now on!

I also want to thank the few (very few) who actually read and understood what I was asking and supplying the web links. Hard to believe it took 3 times for most of you!

I will also never say to anyone anymore on AC, because I have in the past, “stop worrying about bla, bla, bla, and enjoy the music! I was and am not worrying.

I still think I have a very good question and I was looking for a very good answer. Some have given the theories and results which do help. I still would like to hear from Frank also, not from the protection of speakers/equipment point of view, just from the way his amp works getting the information to the speakers. Does all the information go through that little fuse? Much equipment I have owned in the past did not have fuses.

I did like the one reply regarding if something goes wrong with the equipment, the fuse would stop something from that problem going to the speakers. That makes sense, but that response was regarding “protection” and not sound quality!

Maybe there is some validity in them $29.00 and up fuses. Heck, a lot of us try all sorts of things trying to get the best out of our equipment like different tubes, wire, platforms, weights, absorption feet, why not fuses?

Is this what Saddam feels like today? 

Come back Frank!

[Zheeeem]

Heck, a lot of us try all sorts of things trying to get the best out of our equipment like different tubes, wire, platforms, weights, absorption feet, why not fuses?

I, too, am happy to tweak things.  But I generally don't if I cannot understand the (positive) value of the tweak.  Because I've worked in science (chemistry) most of my life, I don't mind technical explanations.  Maybe it's just my naturally cynical disposition, but I tend to be dismissive of the unexplained (especially those with high price tags).

Fuses are a case in point.  While logic suggests that there is ought to be a degradation in sound quality as current starts approaching the working limit of a fuse, (1) there does not seem to be too much hard data on this point, and (2) it is not clear what can be done about it except change the value of the fuse.  Oh, clearly there will be RCL differences between different fuse materials.  But it is not clear how these changed values might actually make the sound better/worse (or even audibly different). 

(FWIW, I fuse all my stuff, and I use normal off-the-rack cheap radio shack fuses or equivalent.  I tend to view them as a necessary evil 99.9999% of the time.  But there's that 0.0001% when they blow and I realize that they've saved an expensive bit of gear.)

I reckon, if you are really interested, it's easy enough to experiment swapping fuses. 

There is, particularly among maggie users, a chorus advocating removing fuses for better sound.  Almost everyone who tries this swears by it.  About once a month someone posts about blowing their tweeters on the MUG.  I'm no genius, but I see a pattern.

Anyhow, I would assume that the inductance and capacitance of a fuse would be negligible (and it probably does not pick up enough RF to be audible or affect signal).  That would pretty much leave V=IR as the dominant factor in fuse performance.

[boead]

http://www.fatwyre.com/featuredprods.html

I tried these amongst others, they sounded different then the stock ones - not necessarily better to my ears.

Oh, and they sounded different in each direction. HA! That will make some of your heads spin.

[warnerwh]

Well being as Wayner is going into electricity 101, something good became of this thread. 

Audio did an in depth study with measurements and all for fuses some years ago.  The bottom line though are your ears. I've owned a couple of Hafler amps over the years and one I actually wired around the fuse holder due to the same reason Budyog is concerned. The next Hafler I just put in 5 amp fuses.

The AVA 550 I own now I've had since about June. Just checked the fuses yesterday to see what value they were. The amp only run the planar/ribbons on my RM 40's so 3 amps is probably plenty. Both fuses were 7 amp. I put them back in because it's more trouble than it's worth to get some smaller fuses out which I still have a variety of from 2 to 10 amps. In other words it's not worth being concerned with. I'm not worried about blowing the planars or ribbons on my speakers. If they were going to go they would have done it while listening to peaks at 105db at my listening seat.

[avahifi]

If one was to worry about the size of the wire inside a fuse, then there are several other things to worry about first:

The size of the wires inside your power transistors and vacuum tubes.  The lead wires inside that transistor case are the size of a small hair.  The vacuum tube is even worse, no wires at all!  You actually have to force electrons to jump across a gap between the conducting parts!  Then there is the hundreds of feet of tiny gauge wire in your transformers, and in the speaker voice coils too.  How about the wire size in the coils in your phono cartridges?

Oh worry worry worry.   

Seriously, the formula for current is voltage divided by resistance.  Thus 40V RMS (200 watts output) divided by 8 ohms is 5 amps.  You would need a 5 amp fuse to sustain 200 watts RMS continuous power into an 8 ohm load.  How much is 200 watts into a speaker voice coil?  Well try holding on to a 100 watt light bulb in each hand after they have turned on for a while.  Contemplate, while treating your burns, if your speaker voice coils can handle that much heat.

Obviously a 5 amp fuse is too much fuse to protect any but the most inefficient and rugged speaker.  We advise starting with the smallest fuse that does not blow often (2 amp for a 2-way design, 3 amp for a 3-way design, and work your way up slowly, but not more than 5 amp with a 200 watt per channel amplifier, otherwise the speaker voice coils will protect the fuse and blow first.  Never use slo blow fuses for anything other than the main AC side of a power supply.  Their overload time is too great to protect a speaker or the amplifier from accidents or abuse.  Note for 4 ohm speakers, the same input voltage yields double the power and current.  However, the voice coils still have thermal limits and fusing over 6-7 amps invites speaker distruction.

Finally, in most amplifiers, including ours, there are more fuses inside as a further layer of protection.  These are the power supply rail fuses.  They actually are in series with the output current flow, just ahead of the output devices to protect against internal failure.  These fuses are sized bigger than the external speaker fuses.  If you install speaker fuses that are too large, then the internal fuses will blow first.  If this happens, you need to take the cover off the amp to find them.  Of course some people never read directions, and would rather send a perfectly good working amp all the way back for us to repair, because they never looked for a blown internal fuse or contacted us before shipping.

Does the fuse make a difference sonically.  Well, it can.  Hafler, in the DH-200 amplifiers, put the speaker fuses inside the feedback loop, to compensate for any errors across the fuse.  This was a mistake and they eliminated this "improvement" in the DH-220 model.  We could actually measure that the feedback loop was working harder at low frequencies when the fuse was inside the loop to try and eliminate the thermal distortion caused by the fuse.  The cure was worse than the cause.  Removing the fuse from the feedback loop made the feedback loop do less work, and the overall sound was cleaner.

Don't worry about distortion across a speaker fuse.  It is so so far down in the pecking order of priorities of audio limitations that it not worth considering at this point in time.

Regards, and Happy New Year

Frank Van Alstine