Angelus is Coming!

DARTH AUDIO · « **Reply #80 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 02:47 pm »

I'll second that!!

SuperFi · « **Reply #81 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 03:18 pm »

Quote from: DARTH AUDIO on 2 Dec 2006, 02:31 pm

I don't think that price is too expensive if the quality and sound are reflective of $5500.00. Hell, I just paid $2000.00 for a record cleaner aa I just hope your dealers will allow in home trials? Because at that price I would want to make sure they were a good match for my system. Have you located a dealer in Chicago, IL? Good luck you speakers look beautiful and the price IMHO isn't outrageous

No one in Chicago yet - working on it!

SuperFi · « **Reply #82 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 03:20 pm »

Quote from: Response Audio on 2 Dec 2006, 02:32 pm

That pricing seems to be reasonable to me. I don't think anyone can pass judgement on a product they have not yet heard. Obviously, it will be the ears that tell all.

As I mentioned previously SuperFi, if you ever want to use my facility to do an Upstate NY audition or promotion, I would be eager to hear them myself. Although, if you would want to demonstrate them with solid state, you would have to bring your own. Nothing but tubes here.

Sounds like a nice idea - will have to try and plan that the next time I'm on my way up to NY. How far from Nyack are you?

Bill Baker · « **Reply #83 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 04:37 pm »

Quote

God love ya
I'll second that!!

Quote

Sounds like a nice idea - will have to try and plan that the next time I'm on my way up to NY. How far from Nyack are you?

I am in Endicott (Binghamnton area) about 175 miles NW of Nyack.

JLM · « **Reply #84 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 04:56 pm »

Super Fi,

Hope this endeavor goes well with you. But except for your own words, I find nothing remarkable about this speaker and cannot understand why it should cost so much. Here's a quick list of somewhat comparably sized speakers that sell for 1/4 to 1/2 as much (all floorstanders, all rated down to 35 Hz with equal or better efficiency, and either tightly packed two-ways or single driver designs to provide good imaging):

http://www.roleaudio.com/sampan.html

http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/LT-2000/Main.html

http://www.silverlineaudio.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=77

SuperFi · « **Reply #85 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 05:06 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 2 Dec 2006, 04:56 pm

Super Fi,

Hope this endeavor goes well with you. But except for your own words, I find nothing remarkable about this speaker and cannot understand why it should cost so much. Here's a quick list of somewhat comparably sized speakers that sell for 1/4 to 1/2 as much (all floorstanders, all rated down to 35 Hz with equal or better efficiency, and either tightly packed two-ways or single driver designs to provide good imaging):

http://www.roleaudio.com/sampan.html

http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/LT-2000/Main.html

http://www.silverlineaudio.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=77

JLM,

I guess we won't be counting you among Angelus owners. I'm also sure we won't have any shortage of very happy clients in spite of the fact that there are less expensive speakers on the market. Somehow - magically - you've been able to pass judgement on something you've never even seen in person, or heard on any occasion.

Think about it - there are TONS of two-way speakers out there for less money, and there are planty of two way speakers for more money. Your comparisons are without meaning. Why would you bother? What do you have against someone making a great 2-way coaxial loudspeaker that sits in the middle of the market?

We start with the idea: how good can we make it?

THEN we finish with the idea: how inexpensively can we sell it?

If it doesn't fit your sensibilities, we're not the shop for you.

DARTH AUDIO · « **Reply #86 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 06:18 pm »

JLM, Have you heard this speaker?? If not shut the F_ _ K up!! How dare you comment on these speakers just by what you have read on this thread. You based your comments on SPECS?? Are you to cheap to afford Super Fi product? His speaker costs $5500 a pair. Who are you to say this is right or wrong??

BTW, They're a lot less than Merlin VSM MX ($10K two way) or the Kharma Mini Exquisite ($45K two way)!! Those speakers are about the same size and bass response. Why talk negatively about someones product (which you never heard) that only puts fear and uncertainty in people's minds. I'm willing to bet that Angelus speaker is better than your Bob Brines LT2000?? Even though I haven't heard either. I think it's better because the Angelus is beautiful to look at? JLM, get with the program.

zybar · « **Reply #87 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 06:20 pm »

Quote from: DARTH AUDIO on 2 Dec 2006, 06:18 pm

JLM, Have you heard this speaker?? If not shut the F_ _ K up!! How dare you comment on these speakers just by what you have read on this thread. You based your comments on SPECS?? Are you to cheap to afford Super Fi product? His speaker costs $5500 a pair. Who are you to say this is right or wrong?? BTW, They're a lot less than Merlin VSM MX ($10K two way) or the Kharma Mini Exquisite ($45K two way)!! Those speakers are about the same size and bass response. Why talk negatively about someones product (which you never heard) that only puts fear and uncertainty in people's minds. I'm willing to bet that Angelus speaker is better than your Bob Brines LT2000?? Even though I haven't heard either. I think it's better because the Angelus is beautiful to look at? JLM, get with the program.

BRAVO!!

George

Davey · « **Reply #88 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 06:49 pm »

JLM,

Remember Rule number #1 in the crazy world of high-end audio....you can't criticize anything you haven't heard. I guess Darth told you eh?

Very friendly folks in here.

Regarding the $4500.00 price drop....I guess the $10k was just an arbitrary number floated to gauge reaction to set the final price. Hmmmm.
It is a beautiful looking speaker system though.

Davey.

Quote from: JLM on 2 Dec 2006, 04:56 pm

Super Fi,

Hope this endeavor goes well with you. But except for your own words, I find nothing remarkable about this speaker and cannot understand why it should cost so much. Here's a quick list of somewhat comparably sized speakers that sell for 1/4 to 1/2 as much (all floorstanders, all rated down to 35 Hz with equal or better efficiency, and either tightly packed two-ways or single driver designs to provide good imaging):

http://www.roleaudio.com/sampan.html

http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/Pages/LT-2000/Main.html

http://www.silverlineaudio.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=77

Kishore · « **Reply #89 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 07:52 pm »

Quote from: DARTH AUDIO on 2 Dec 2006, 06:18 pm

JLM, Have you heard this speaker?? If not shut the F_ _ K up!! How dare you comment on these speakers just by what you have read on this thread. You based your comments on SPECS??

a damn funny reply I have read in a long time!

Anyway proof is in the pudding... SuperFi let us know when initial feedback/impressions will be posted when others start hearing your speakers.

Cheers,
Kishore

SuperFi · « **Reply #90 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 08:07 pm »

Quote from: Davey on 2 Dec 2006, 06:49 pm

Regarding the $4500.00 price drop....I guess the $10k was just an arbitrary number floated to gauge reaction to set the final price. Hmmmm.
It is a beautiful looking speaker system though.

Davey.

Davey, be real. I never said that $10k was the price - I said it was the barrier. It was never intended to sell that high, and I was clear about that. You instigated a knee-jerk reaction based on DIY economics but without figuring in the cost of tools, the cost of the CLIO (or whetever suite you use), the cost of the failed experiments and the rack of unused or previously used drivers.

Altogther it was a pretty unfair approach, but I gave you room to vent. But keep things in perspective: not everyone wants to be a DIY speaker builder, not everyone wants to buy the table saw, the router and router table, the band saw, the radial arm saw, the drill press, the myriad hand tools (powered and otherwise), the measurement kit, and then dedicate a workspace in their garage ... and THEN start out with a few kits, screw up a few drivers on the learning curve, etc.

For some people - DIY isn't fun and their time is worth something to them (DIY'ers never seem to count their time as valuable when attacking commercial products - but just try to get them to volunteer that same amount of time at their jobs for free and see how quickly they would get defensive).

We've priced this as low as humanly possible given the economic model we've adopted (dealer network). $5,500 is extremely reasonable. For a non-DIY person just wanting to own a great pair of speakers, all of the investment in tools and measurement kit, all the the engineering time and prototyping, all of the labor and finishing work is built in to each pair of Angelus. All the costly mistakes have been carried by someone else - you just get a supremely finished product (and, presumably, your time).

So when you say "crazy world of high end audio" you're throwing stones in glass houses. Who would invest in all the things required to DIY something at this level, spend a considerable amount of time building it (who knows how many versions and prototypes you'd have to get through to do be reasonably successful), just to finally be able to set them up, plug them in, and listen to some music? If it's not already your hobby and you don't already have a desire to build loudspeakers as an ongoing pasttime ... why would you start? For one pair of speakers?

Of course not. You'd spend significantly more just trying to get something decent than if you just bought something that was already made well, sounded wonderful, and got you where you wanted to be.

Davey · « **Reply #91 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 09:18 pm »

Superfi,

Hey, you've outlined the DIY versus Commercial economics/engineering aspect multiple times now. I understood it before the first time you said it. Do you need to repeat it over and over again to justify something? I know where you're coming from and you know where I'm coming from. I think that's very clear by now.

$5500.00 is much better than $10,000, and as I said, it is a very nice looking speaker system. It's not a good value however.

Your comments defending the design have been well spoken and polite. I didn't think four-letter words were necessary from some of the other folks here though.

Just my opinion. Worth what you paid for it.

Cheers,

Davey.

SuperFi · « **Reply #92 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 10:08 pm »

Quote from: Davey on 2 Dec 2006, 09:18 pm

$5500.00 is much better than $10,000, and as I said, it is a very nice looking speaker system. It's not a good value however.

No shortage of unqualified amateur opinions being stated as fact around here.

If I could drop the cost and get it made in China for 30% less, do you think I should do it?

Just because you understand the difference in the DIY vs. commercial economics "before the first time" I mentioned it doesn't mean that you aren't criticizing from that position anyway.

"It's not a good value." What could you possibly be basing that on? What you thought when you heard the speaker? Or maybe it was the build quality, when you rapped your knuckles on the cabinet or enjoyed the silky smooth lacquer and top-shelf wood veneers. Maybe you had enough one-on-one time with it to render a meaningful judgement and thought to yourself, "Self ... this is not a good value."

Of course you weren't able to do any of that. So instead you decide that you don't NEED to. All you need to do is render a judgement from how ever many miles away you are, never having seen nor heard the speaker for yourself. "It's not a good value" he says.

It's just plain crummy - you've got no actual basis for judgement, but you feel the urge to share it anyway.

"It's not a good value."

I thought this was a Free Market Economy, but I've apparently wandered into a Flea Market Economy.

SuperFi · « **Reply #93 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 10:29 pm »

Quote from: Response Audio on 2 Dec 2006, 04:37 pm

I am in Endicott (Binghamnton area) about 175 miles NW of Nyack.

Will have to try and plan a trip to your place next time I'm up that way.

Davey · « **Reply #94 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 10:45 pm »

You're totally missing the point.

Let me use an analogy that you will no doubt call silly. You've got a standard speaker design there....much like a Honda Accord....and you're trying to sell it for $50,000. It's simply not a good value. I don't need to drive it to make that determination. My basis for this judgement is that I've driven a dozen cars just like it...including a Honda Accord. And even a limited edition Honda Accord with some bells/whistles and fancy paint job handcrafted by a supergenius in his own shop is not worth $50,000.

Cheers,

Davey.

earlmarc · « **Reply #95 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 10:59 pm »

I don't think there is any more points here to be made. Some of us will have a chance to listen to these Angelus speakers, and then points can be shared and discussed based on first-hand experience. Let's end the back and forth positioning. Its pointless!

SuperFi · « **Reply #96 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 11:02 pm »

Quote from: Davey on 2 Dec 2006, 10:45 pm

You're totally missing the point.

Let me use an analogy that you will no doubt call silly. You've got a standard speaker design there....much like a Honda Accord....and you're trying to sell it for $50,000. It's simply not a good value. I don't need to drive it to make that determination. My basis for this judgement is that I've driven a dozen cars just like it...including a Honda Accord. And even a limited edition Honda Accord with some bells/whistles and fancy paint job handcrafted by a supergenius in his own shop is not worth $50,000.

You're being unfairly dismissive and way too committed to an opinion that's based on nothing more than a photograph and some specs.

Meanwhile - your opinion of something you know little about is enthusiastically shared as if it had value to other people, as if it could ever have meaning. But, my friend, based on what we already know about you from what you have already shared ... it is your opinion that isn't a good value. Seriously - I don't mean to be insulting or belittling, but that you can even think that you've got a design nailed by looking at its picture is rather silly (you were right, I do think it's silly). You're mud throwing disguised as "opinion" ... or worse ... "expert opinion."

Here's the point: You see a compact car and you say "It's an Accord, it can't be worth as much as they are asking for it." I see a compact car and say, "Hey - that's German engineering, that's Italian styling and premium finish, it's got 220HP in a 2000lb frame, goes around corners like it's tied to a rope, accelerates like a rocket, hand stitched leather interior and premium wood veneer dash ... that thing is worth every penny and then some!"

But then again ... I've driven it, lived with it, put it through its paces.

You haven't.

Get it?

You may have driven TWO dozen compact cars, but you've never had your foot in a Ferrari.

Somehow you have distilled the experience of driving a Ferrari from your time spent in Accords.

So, yes - it is your opinion and - yes - it is worth what we paid for it.

And it is STILL not a very good value.

SuperFi · « **Reply #97 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 11:05 pm »

Quote from: earlmarc on 2 Dec 2006, 10:59 pm

I don't think there is any more points here to be made. Some of us will have a chance to listen to these Angelus speakers, and then points can be shared and discussed based on first-hand experience. Let's end the back and forth positioning. Its pointless!

I agree, but I must say ... I thought I was simply posting some information about an upcoming product to a commercial board where the rules of engagement (as I read them from Galactus' original post) were:

"Keep replies to adds positive for the seller. Posts like: "what are you replacing it with," "this other component is better," "here is a better price," or "this products sucks" will be removed at the sellers request or at Facilitator will."

Nothing of the sort, though.

opnly bafld · « **Reply #98 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 11:05 pm »

Quote from: Davey on 2 Dec 2006, 10:45 pm

You're totally missing the point.

Let me use an analogy that you will no doubt call silly. You've got a standard speaker design there....much like a Honda Accord....and you're trying to sell it for $50,000. It's simply not a good value. I don't need to drive it to make that determination. My basis for this judgement is that I've driven a dozen cars just like it...including a Honda Accord. And even a limited edition Honda Accord with some bells/whistles and fancy paint job handcrafted by a supergenius in his own shop is not worth $50,000.

Cheers,

Davey.

If the Accord has been built so that it gets around the racetrack faster than any 50k "sports car" and is a 4 door model I will buy it.

Lin

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #99 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 11:17 pm »

Superfi, perhaps you can share with us in broad terms what is under the hood of the Angelus? That would be great, especially for those of us who can't hear it.

I have no idea what it is about your particular ad that caught Davey's ire. It's baffling.