Angelus is Coming!

SuperFi · « **on:** 26 Nov 2006, 01:49 am »

ANGELUS is a floor-standing 2--way coaxial monitor the likes of which has not been seen nor heard before. Crafted in the finest quilted-maple and plain maple veneers, trimmed in bloodwood, and finished with a deep and lustrous lacquer - mere photographs do not do it justice. Standing at a mere 34" tall with a 9" x 12" footprint, you wouldn't think that its elegantly petit proportions could produce such tremendous sound ... and yet!

Disappearing completely into the soundstage, the Angelus gives no clue that it is producing the illusion projected before you. Deep and wide musical vistas become the home of stunning musical images rendered in living, breathing dimensions - like a mystical portal into the musical event itself.

Angelus is superbly crafted, extraordinarily finished floor-standing loudspeaker of diminutive proportions, able to project an impossibly vast musical vistas while remaining sonically invisible.

Hand-crafted in North America by a pair of supergeniuses for Stereolab, a wholly owned subsidiary of Signals-SuperFi, LLC.

Watch this space for more info to come: http://signals-superfi.com/44_stereolab.html

duggie · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 02:27 am »

specs! we want specs! ohm-rating, efficiency, +/-db frequency response... aa

SuperFi · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 02:35 am »

ANGELUS

Nominal impedence: 8 ohms
(the lowest impedence is 6 ohms at 200 Hz)
Efficiency: 87 dB 1w 1m
35Hz-20,000 Hz, +/- 3dB
Circa +/- 1dB from 600Hz-7KHz

earlmarc · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 02:53 am »

What about drivers? What kind of drivers are used in this two-way speaker? And what is the price?

SuperFi · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 03:00 am »

The driver is a coaxial design by Seas, the crossover a voodoo hybrid L/R x Butterworth (can't say more).

The price isn't finalized yet - but we're aiming for a spot below $10k (hopefully well-below) - I don't want to make any promises yet. Not until we have the final costing ironed out.

This one's a stunner, though ... just gorgeous to look at and wonderful to hear.

Davey · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 04:09 am »

A $120.00 Seas driver, about half that for the "voodoo" crossover, throw it all in a standard (but very pretty) vented-box...times 2.......$10,000.00? You're kidding, right?

I like the "mystical portal" part though. Very catchy.

Davey.

SuperFi · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 05:37 am »

Don't be so dismissive ... a loudspeaker is an organic thing, it is not merely a matter of the cost of a driver. You seem reduce the art to the simplicity of a flea-market DIY Bazaar. Parts without the art are meaningless. You do not buy a Picasso or a Monet for the cost of the paint and canvas

Angelus is something that must be heard to be appreciated. Soon, Davey ... the opportunity to hear Angelus will come soon. Consider that you cannot make a meaningful judgement yet. To evaluate a speaker based on the cost of a part and an incomplete understanding of the cabinet construction and crossover is an impossible task to do credibly - and it also disrespects the value of the intellectual property and engineering effort expended to bring this product forth.

For now, be so kind as to assume that this is not a simple DIY project from some weekend warriors with a CLIO, the latest Vance Dickason's, and some back issues of Voice Coil. Sure - you can use these resources to make a wonderful DIY speaker, but that doesn't guarantee that you'll get a world-class speaker.

By the way - the $10k tag is not the price. It's a barrier. My hope is that we'll be bringing this to market much lower, but I'm not willing to commit to a firm number until we've got our costs dialed in. Still ... compared to a $13k monitor for Sonus Faber or a $20k monitor from Magico, you'd think $10k is slumming!

Davey · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 03:55 pm »

"Organic thing?" "Picasso or a Monet for the cost of the paint and canvas?" Oh c'mon. Gimme a break. You sound like you're trying to be condescending, but not doing a very good job of it.

You spec'd a 6.5 inch driver and you've mounted it in a box....even one which we have an "incomplete understanding" of. Just with those choices you've defined the basic limitations of the design. Even a voodoo crossover will not appreciably improve the baseline performance of the system at that point. You've designed a system which is essentially the same thing as 1000 other commercial efforts out there (a 6.5' mid-bass, and tweeter in a narrow, tall box) most of which are considerably cheaper. The Seas T18RE driver is an excellent design, but it has its limitations based on simple physics. You can't overcome those limitations with slick marketing and organic-speak.

I think this type of a product with the....apparently....very high price tag is a perfect example of what's wrong with the "high-end" audio business these days. Nothing innovative. It's a slick effort to sell just a few copies at a astronomical price. I'd like to see more products aimed at potential customers who might be attracted into this hobby and away from their Best Buy systems. Unfortunately products like this leave them shaking their heads and laughing at those "high-end wackos."

Cheers,

Davey.

SuperFi · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 04:30 pm »

Davey ... so bitter, and yet so condescending. No - you don't overcome phsyical limitations of drivers ... but you make an assumption by your argument that these limits have already been understood and reached before.

You prescribe "what is wrong with high end audio" as if there is something wrong. I do understand your desire to "see more products aimed at potential customers who might be attracted into this hobby and away from their Best Buy systems" - I see that as a nearly impossible task for small companies that cannot reach an economy of scale the likes of Bose.

My desire is to promote outstanding products that perform amazingly well, that are broadly accepted as best in class. With two of my represented products achieving best in class awards (Peak Consult Empress: Loudspeaker of the Year 2005, Continuum Caliburn: Analog Component of the Year AND Product of the Year 2006), I will proudly say that my track record for finding and representing companies that offer products performing at world-class levels is - at the very least - worthy of note. I don't waste my time cultivating products that are not truly outstanding

The same holds true for this loudspeaker, and no matter how much you protest that you grasp the limits possible with the driver, crossover, and cabinet - you do not, you cannot, and your protestations here sound more like sour grapes. Stop. It's silly.

If you want companies to make inexpensive alternatives to the Best Buy offerings, they exist in the high end already. Anthony Gallo Acoustics makes a collection Bose alternative products that, in my opinon, so far outclass their competition that Bose should have already tried to purchase Gallo by now. There are a number of direct-marketed products, such as the Onix Rocket speakers and ACI, that also address your particular pricing predilections. Further, there are copycat Chinese products, like Usher, which should warm the cockles of your proletarian heart.

Angelus is, so far, beyond your ability to understand. This is clear by what you write. And just because you don't understand it doesn't make it incomprehensible. It just puts it beyond your reach - for now. And that's ok. There are 1,000's of alternatives for you to choose from - so why go gunning? What's in it for you? Do you imgine that, by pretending to completely understand the limitations of this driver/cabinet/crossover combo (which you clearly do not) and being boisterously opinionated about it on a message board for all to read that - somehow - this will lend you some kind of credibility? Please ... unless you're Davey Hafler or Davey Wilson, you're just Davey.

And so far, your posts to me make you seem to be a sour grapes crankpot with an axe to grind. I'm sure you think of yourself otherwise, but the tone and attitude of your posts make it seem that way. What do you imagine you have to offer here? Your unqualified expert opinion?

Do this: Give up your day job.

Then: Do the R&D, invest in the tooling, the building to house it, the expertise to build. Make ONE model of a loudspeaker (don't want to tax you), finish it to a glorious luster. Do all of this on North American soil, paying fair wages and obeying the EPA laws, etc. Then, bring it to market and reach those Best Buy customers you pretend to care about. Let's see if you really understand what it takes to bring something into the open market, and at what price you will have to sell your invention in order to keep your business continuously viable and afloat, and let you make a fair living for yourself and your employees, as well.

And if - IF - your speaker can perform well beyond its class, beyond the "armchair expert" expectations for your driver/crossover/cabinet combination and IF it can excite the imagination of anyone who lays ears on it and boggle their minds ... I might just be interested in helping you build your business, too.

Chris

RoadTripper · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 04:46 pm »

I had a pair of Angelus in the '90s. You know, the flying nuns, made by John Bau for his company called Spica. Did you have to do anything to lift that product name from him?

SuperFi · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 04:52 pm »

Hi,

Actually I also have a pair of the Spica Angelus speakers - classics! They are part of my growing audio museum of classic audio that affected me in my formative years.

As for the name - although Spica had it last, it did not have it first. JBL once made a stand-alone ring radiating supertweeter called Angelus - meant to be added to the top of your Hartsfields to extend the HF performance.

I like the name Angelus for this speaker because it is small, delicate, beautiful, and yet has the power to overwhelm your emotion with the beauty of music.

Angels are (by definition) messengers, delivering the Word of God. In a similar spirit I have called these Angelus because they deliver the musical message.

marvda1 · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 04:55 pm »

i see that usher is not alone with their copycat ways.

SuperFi · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 05:00 pm »

I'll take the bait: Which loudspeaker(s) is/are the one I am promoting copying and in what particular ways would you say the copy is being executed?

Usher has unapologetically copied the Sonus Faber Electa Amator, the JBL K2, the Acoustic Energy AE1, and has borrowed significantly from other Sonus Faber designs (note the multiple hardwood laminations of the Dancer series vs. the Homage series of Sonus Faber) ... you'd think Usher should be paying Franco Serblin a royalty by now.

Davey · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 05:16 pm »

Superfi,

Yeah, I can understand the hurdles to overcome for a small, commericial outfit to bring a product to the wacky audiophile market. Quit my day job and try it myself? No, I don't think so. I'd have to take a huge cut in pay.

One of these days when I retire though....

Anyways, the "you can't understand/criticize because you haven't done it yourself" premise is overused and completely ridiculous. The audiophile consumer couldn't care less about whether the manufacturer has food on the table for his kids that night. They simply make a value judgment on the product and decide whether to part with what they think is a reasonable amount of their disposable income. However, a product like this is apparently targeted at a small niche in the audiophile market for which price is no object. I guess I have no problem with that. People buy Ferrari's, or Monet paintings, or whatever....

Much of my opinion (which I understand you couldn't care less about) might be changed depending upon the final pricing of this speaker system. At this point you're being totally coy about that price point. The only dollar amount you've mentioned is $10k. If you move the decimal point one place to the left and your final price is somewhere close to that I'd say you have a viable product that might sell well.

Just my opinion of course. Worth what you paid for it.

You might be interested to know that I'm listening right now to a Seas T18RE-coax based system of my own design that will outperform the Angelus system in all areas.....for considerably less scratch.

Cheers,

Davey.

SuperFi · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 05:46 pm »

Hi Davey,

You are likely listening to a Seas Coax based dipole ... something I am helping a friend develop (saw a few of your prior posts out of curiosity). In that configuration we have determined that it requires an active sub, and also that it requires a symmetrical room and a considerable amount of space. We have also determined that it is possible to make this speaker for a price much closer to what you presume a "fair price" for the Angelus would be.

I like dipoles ... I really do. I have Apogee Stages in my collection, have owned Maggies, and have listened to prototypes and DIY kits galore using dynamic drivers in that capacity. So far, from what I've heard up to now, the Seas coax in a dipole config is outclassed by offset driver combinations ... and "for less scratch" as well.

Depending upon the results of this R&D, and then what it would take to commercialize the product - given the limitations of the technology to perform at its best (needs ample room behind it, not so much to the sides) - I may help him to bring this to market via a direct marketed scheme. Dipoles have limited appeal to a very dedicated and idealistic customer base. There are things that Dipoles do which make them VERY addictive to listen to and I enjoy them a great deal - but I don't see a broader market for a product like this, so I wouldn't necessarily recommend to him going to dealer route. I think he will make more hay and be more appreciated for his design if he goes the direct route, and the speaker would be less expensive as a result.

If I am correct and you are listening to a Seas-coax based Dipole system with a subwoofer, I'll agree that your sound is likely quite wonderful but I'd be happy to put the Angelus up next to it. My guess is that you would prefer your signature dipole sound and I would prefer the sound of the Angelus ... BUT, the question then becomes "What would most people prefer, given their rooms, their gear, and their tastes?" I don't know. What I do know is that you feel passionately about your ideas, and I honestly do respect that. Without passion this industry would be completely unappealing to me and I'd be doing something else.

Now - you say, "Anyways, the 'you can't understand/criticize because you haven't done it yourself' premise is overused and completely ridiculous. The audiophile consumer couldn't care less about whether the manufacturer has food on the table for his kids that night."

Whether or not you feel that it is overused is inconsequential and unrelated to the actual crucial challenges of bringing something to market. I don't use this notion as a means to promote (i.e. please help feed my hungry kids by paying $X for my speakers), but rather it is one of the boringly practical considerations that companies must face when trying to bring something to market. If the company cannot meet basic needs, they will go out of business and that ... as they say ... is that. So, while you seem to find it ridiculous - the fact remains that it is a very important consideration for any company looking to survive. If you lose money on every sale, you can't make it up in volume.

Final pricing of the Aneglus is likey to be well beyond what you consider fair, judging by your hint. I understand that - you are a DIY guy and there is a separate economy applied to that market. It is impossible to superimpose that onto a commercial product promoted through traditional avenues, in the same way it would be impossible to apply the DIY/Hobby economy of ANYTHING to its commercial counterpart. This is the primary reason that I posted my information about Angelus in the "Industry Ads" section of the marketplace on Audio Circle, instead of posting it to "The Trading Post."

However, if my friend's dipole R&D goes well and we both agree that it would be better represented by marketing directly, you might be more inclined to have a better opinion of the value proposition offered. At least that is what I suspect, correct me if I am wrong.

Chris

srb · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 05:47 pm »

SuperFi,

I have no axe to grind. But in your trying to debut a "future" product and to create a "buzz", you do open yourself to comments from this forum.

"Deep and wide musical vistas become..." and "...able to project an impossibly vast musical vistas..." within a few lines of each other, seems a little like poetic grandstanding without a lot of substance.

Until the product has been heard and experienced, I'm not going to deny that your engineering may have extracted more from a 6-1/2" coaxial unit than previous offerings from other manufacturers.

And from the one angled photograph and veneer and wood descriptions, it looks quite beautiful. Art and beauty does add value to a speaker. Jim Salk has proven that with his exquisite executions.

I think where you have lost most of us, is pricing "...below $10k (hopefully well-below)".

Good luck on your endeavor. I may be interested myself, if the price turns out to be $4K or less.

SuperFi · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 05:58 pm »

Hi SRB,

Many thanks for your respectful post.

The price of the speaker will be more than $4k. If I have lost interest from some of the members here, that is as it is. At $4k I would lose interest from yet other members, and at $10k I would have interest from some. Pricing will be set as a practical consideration of costing - materials, overhead, labor, intellectual property, marketing, et al. There is more that goes into a loudspeaker than parts, and those things must also be paid for.

As for waxing poetic ... how else would one propose to describe the experience of an aesthetic? Are there universally accepted meters for emotional experiences? Or would one be satisfied with simple sepcifications? Herein lies the essential conflict of any aesthetic industry ... why pay more for a Coke when a Shasta can be had at half the price?

And while I understand that, by posting my ad here in the Industry section of the Marketplace (where I assumed it belonged) that I would open myself up to comments, I was unaware of the abilities of some to hear and be able to judge the speakers clairaudiently. If I knew that, I may have chosen better demo cuts!

Chris

marvda1 · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 06:04 pm »

superfi the reason i mention usher is because i own some usher equipment and sound is all that matters. let me ask you this, how many Wilson watt puppy look alikes are there out in the market? and yet usher is always singled out. why? usher is Taiwan not china so if all these other manufacturers thought usher was copying their designs I'm sure there would be plenty of law suits, surely these other companies are large enough to bring little usher down.

JoshK · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 06:12 pm »

I am not sure it is really fair to attack someone's ad post in public, deserving or not. However, I will say I fail to see the marketing savvy of someone who promotes a $10k 2way on a well-understood high value for money forum.

If one were to have done any research (that is what your manufacturer is payin you for right?) then you would see that this is glaringly obvious. There is another high priced 2 way (~$8k iirc) that is manufactured and promoted by a company right here among us that seems to only have discussion about his speaker on this forum if he started the topic himself. Zero (or at least little) self generated buzz.

It looks as though from your own comment that you are setting the price to attract a market, not based on bringing it based on its manufacturing economics. Yet you fiercely defend the latter.

SuperFi · « **Reply #19 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 06:13 pm »

Marv,

There is no shortage of copycats out there, and regardless of how blatant the copies are, no one has ever been sued to my knowledge. Fact is, Usher's copies appeal to certain people who do not or would not otherwise own the originals. But Usher is making its market on the coattails of others instead of innovating for themselves. Their value proposition is simple: "We can copy that for less."

Sound is critically important, no doubt. But I'd much sooner own a pair of original Electa Amators than Usher's unceremoniously lifted copy of them.