[GHM]

GHM

I have to take exception to the notion that I am selling either Bob Brines, or Martin King short. I have stunning respect for both of them, and their work, and have relied on Martin's worksheets about five times now. I think Bob knows the MLTL better than ANYONE, and his designs are fabulous. I, however, was referring to SOUND. Further, I consider both these gentlemen also, cyber friends in audio... Why does the music so often get lost in all of this, with so many people so apparently interested in music? My own thinking is that they are more interested in the equipment. They are "stereophiles." I am first a humble music lover/trained, published musician, cursed with perfect pitch and the ability to play several instruments, as my only reference to that which I choose to like or dislike. My only point was that IN MY OPINION, the Fostex F200A, (which I consider to be a stunning industrial achievement in the Japanese tradition of improving existing ideas, -in this case the now outdated 1960's JBL LE-8,) to be a musical flop. In conversation with a well known speaker designer, also a friend of mine, I could not find the words to describe the sound, he offered, "dead?" "Yes, I said, that about sums it up." I really wanted to like it, but alas, did not. I offered these expensive drivers for sale on these august circles in order to recoup some of the near $800 expense, a reasonable action in my view, and, while I think of it, some time later had it pointed out to me that JLM had referred to me as a "wheeler dealer type," a "horsetrader," on the Brines Forum. Horsetrader? Hardly a compliment, hardly realistic, hardly deserved, and hardly referencial to the fact that I was spending alot of hard earned money testing many many wideband drivers, and gladly sharing these results which apparently benefitted many, many people who otherwise would not have had access to this level of comparative information, judging by the sheer amount of email correspondence I received in the form of questions seeking advice, this being a matter of record, and for the further record, there have been ALOT of queries. I should add I was only too happy to take the time to help these people, with anything I happened to have learned from first hand experience, and the committment of time and treasure.

 So, you see Gymane, sometimes there is more to things than meets the eye. The important thing here is that YOU enjoy your speakers. This makes me genuinely happy, because you are one of the good ones. As far as auditioning and testing speaker drivers, it is my ears that decide. Theirs are the only opinions I care about.

It's sad Dan..that you and JLM seem to be at such odds with one another. As you know I'm well aware of your background which is great! Does it make your hearing  absolute..not hardly. I know a couple of audiophile / musicians neither ones' taste in gear or music is all that great IMHO..But as always opinions are like you know.

So I say enjoy your B200s as well. I've read audiophiles give the same descriptions of them as you give the F200As...dead. In fact some think all SDs sound dead!

Hey..what are we going to do?

I'm not here to defend JLM..he can do that himself. I also do not want people to over look specific components because of all the negative opinions. It's hard enough to get people to listen to a single driver speaker with all the misconceptions about them.

Apparently Louis of Omega liked the Fostex Alnico a little, he used them for several years in his speakers. So no magic bullet for all...I will regress to the side lines to
watch you guys duke it out.

Now back to the regularly scheduled program!

[macrojack]

To anyone interested in such trivia:

I have owned Zu speakers for about one year. I started with Druids, added a MiniMethod sub, and sold those to acquire Definition Pros in June of this year. As a consequence of my interest and delight in their products I became friendly with Sean and Adam. They have set me up as a Zu Listening Post. What this means is that I am eligible for a small commission if someone who auditions the speakers in my home later buys a pair from Zu. All of their sales are factory direct and subject to the 60 day return policy.
I am not located in Great Britain but rather rural western Colorado. The reason I outline this circumstance is for clarification. It would not be true for me to deny a relationship with Zu but likewise I think it should be understood that my comments and suggestions on line do not stand to provide me with financial gain unless I can lure you to my outpost and coax you to purchase some speakers. I do not have any inventory to unload and I am not paid in any way to support the line.
I also do not get to hear any of these competing products so I will admit to being in no position to compare.

[Vinnie R.]

what is the minimum efficiency that speakers need to have in order for the Sig 30 to sound ideal.  Also, what should the impedance curve of the speakers look like.  What load is the Sig 30 comfortable driving?

I'm using a Signature 30 to drive a pair of recently acquired new MG12s and the combo is fantastic.  I am in a small-to-medium sized room, I play it loud but not at blaring concert levels, and the Sig 30 drives these 4-ohm speakers just fine.  I think Magnepan rates them at 86dB.  Sure, the volume control needs to be turned up quite a bit more than with my OB B200s (with BSC circuit that robs some efficiency, but is still much more efficient than the MG12s).  I keep reading about how you need high power (at least 100 watts) for these to sound good.  NO WAY!... come on over and you'll hear what I'm talking about!   

I have Signature 30 customers who are driving multiways like DeVore Fidelity speakers (around 88dB, 8-ohm), Gallo Ref 3s, Quads, Tyler Acoutics (which I heard recently with the Sig 30, but the customer decided on buying the Sig 70s even though the 30 did fine with them), and plenty others that are not considered to be high efficiency, nor single driver... and they are very satisfied with the results.  With the 6-watt Clari-T, the higher efficiency speakers were more recommended, but this isn't the case with the Siggie.

So I can't offer rules about what impedance works best and what is the correct impedance curve of the speaker for best results with the Sig 30.  I'm not so sure that there are any rules.  For example, the impedance of Omega Super 3 bipoles (when wired in 4-ohm mode...paralleling the two drivers) dips down below 4-ohms in the bass region and the Sig 30 seems to have no problem with this.  Like any amplifier, if you push it to hard so it is outputting beyond the rated clean power range, it isn't going to sound good.  The Signature 30 and 70s have no problems with overheating.  You'll need to drive them into distortion before you'll ever have overheating problems...

Like Lonewolf mentions, the Sig 30 isn't huge.  It is approx 12" wide, 8" deep, and 3" tall.  You can charge it up, bring it to your local dealer (no need to bring the charger unless you plan to listen for longer than 24 hours and I doubt your dealer is cool with that!), and listen to anything and everything. 

If you don't have the time, I would order speakers from a company that offers you a money back trial period, just in case they are not to your liking. 

FWIW I own the Sig 30 Hornshoppe combo and it is match made in heaven provided you supply some low end reinforcement, especially if you like the horns out in the room like I do. The 30 does flush out the bottom end like no other amp I've tried.  If you like picking up bass lines be forwarned. You may stop listening to vocals and guitar riffs as every bass note comes through so cleanly its hard not to pay attention.  This combo is especially good for nearfield listening and low to medium volumes in a small to medium size room.

Hi Brad,

Welcome to the RWA forum!  Thanks for sharing your experience with the Sig 30 + Horn combo.  Your comments about an active preamp in the chain bring up a good point... if you already own one, DO try it with and without it as you may or may not like it better.  It will either synergize with your source, Sig 30, speakers, room, and tastes... or it won't. 

Just like speaker impedance, speaker design (multiway, single driver, box, OB, horn...), there is no right and wrong way to do it.  Plus, we don't need no stinkin' rules anyway! 

Thanks,

Vinnie

[yo2tup]

Vinnie,

I see the input impedence of the sig 30 of the is 20k,  what is the input sensitivity of it?

Thanks

[Vinnie R.]

Vinnie,

I see the input impedence of the sig 30 of the is 20k,  what is the input sensitivity of it?

Thanks

Hi yo2tup,

It is approx 0.7V

Best regards,

Vinnie

[yo2tup]

thanks 

[Alwayswantmore]

...just ordered Omega Compact Hemps and Skyland 4-post stands. Thanks to all who contributed to this dialog, especially those who helped with off-line discussions [you know who you are! ]

Also got Hudson 8-strand silver IC - 

My Vandersteen sub is now for sale. Learn more at ... http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2528256#post2528256

Also have 1M Audioquest Quartz IC for sale for $60, shipping to conUS included.

Thanks again!!! Kent

[dave_in_gva]

Hi everyone,

First time post as I am very seriously looking at buying the Sig 30. I wanted to resuscitate this thread as I'm interested to hear more about speakers people have tried with the Sig 30.

I've got an L-shaped room 15 by 24' in the lower part of the L, which is the listening area. Due to furniture etc. I have to place the speakers along the 'toe' of the L, against the 15' wall and can't place them in the corners - most likely they'll be backed up against that 15' wall with about 3' to either side of them. My current speakers are Acoustic Reality AVinci Ones http://www.acoustic-reality.com/us_avincione.htm which are not v. efficient (8 ohm, 84.5 dB sensitivity). I'll give them a try but have the feeling I'll be interested to try something else down the road when finances are replenished.

I've seen all the posts here about the Druids and Omegas....interested to hear more comments on other speakers people may have tried. My speaker placement constraints are a consideration and my wife would far prefer something that does not visually dominate the room.

I also wanted to ask if anyone has tried the Sig 30 with the Duevel Planets? I saw a post on Sonic Flare suggesting this could be a great pairing but nothing else since and no reviews on that speaker I can find. It's an omni-directional upward firing design with very cool looking chrome balls suspended above the drivers. Rated at 4 ohms and sensitivity of 85 dB http://www.cd-konzert.com/Produkte/EPlanets.html. Wife approval factor could be up there but I'd have to hear more about these as well as learn about their placement possibilities. Also concerned that it may not go as low in the bass regions as I'd like and not sure if the omni-directional design would give a sound I'd like. What may work about it is that this is really our living/dining room area with the dining room and kitchen area at the top end of the L.....often we are moving all over the place in this area and have guests over in the living room where they may appreciate a more immersive kind of sound field rather than a focused soundstage. Sorry for the length of this but really hoping to get some more ideas about potential speakers that can work in this room and cover roaming kind of casual listening as well as serious listening sessions.

Best,

Dave M

[Alwayswantmore]

Hi everyone,

First time post as I am very seriously looking at buying the Sig 30. I wanted to resuscitate this thread as I'm interested to hear more about speakers people have tried with the Sig 30.

I've got an L-shaped room 15 by 24' in the lower part of the L, which is the listening area. Due to furniture etc. I have to place the speakers along the 'toe' of the L, against the 15' wall and can't place them in the corners - most likely they'll be backed up against that 15' wall with about 3' to either side of them. My current speakers are Acoustic Reality AVinci Ones http://www.acoustic-reality.com/us_avincione.htm which are not v. efficient (8 ohm, 84.5 dB sensitivity). I'll give them a try but have the feeling I'll be interested to try something else down the road when finances are replenished.

I've seen all the posts here about the Druids and Omegas....interested to hear more comments on other speakers people may have tried. My speaker placement constraints are a consideration and my wife would far prefer something that does not visually dominate the room.

I also wanted to ask if anyone has tried the Sig 30 with the Duevel Planets? I saw a post on Sonic Flare suggesting this could be a great pairing but nothing else since and no reviews on that speaker I can find. It's an omni-directional upward firing design with very cool looking chrome balls suspended above the drivers. Rated at 4 ohms and sensitivity of 85 dB http://www.cd-konzert.com/Produkte/EPlanets.html. Wife approval factor could be up there but I'd have to hear more about these as well as learn about their placement possibilities. Also concerned that it may not go as low in the bass regions as I'd like and not sure if the omni-directional design would give a sound I'd like. What may work about it is that this is really our living/dining room area with the dining room and kitchen area at the top end of the L.....often we are moving all over the place in this area and have guests over in the living room where they may appreciate a more immersive kind of sound field rather than a focused soundstage. Sorry for the length of this but really hoping to get some more ideas about potential speakers that can work in this room and cover roaming kind of casual listening as well as serious listening sessions.

Best,

Dave M

What are your musical tastes?

I now have my Omega Compact Hemps with the Signature 30 (new drivers). Past 100 hours but short of the magic 200. For the type of music I like I am very pleased with my purchase. [I've never heard anything that sounds like the Hemps, including speakers costing much, much more. High effeciency, single point source has its advantages  ]



Where do you live? I'm in North Alabama and would be willing to let you hear for yourself.

[ZLS]

If I read your post correctly, you need to place your speakers against the wall.  This would limit your choice of speakers.  Louis at Omega does make an Aperiodic loaded speaker that has no problem being placed against the wall.  Louis's speakers are also drop dead gorgeous, so the WAF should not be a problem.  I would call Louis up and explain your situation.  He will be most helpful.  The combination of the Sig 30 with Omega speakers approaches the divine.

[dave_in_gva]

ZLS you read that right. I'll have to put these speakers up against that 15' wall, and they'll be about 3' in from either corner. I'll check the Omega speaker line more closely but I'm well aware that my placement issues may limit my choices upfront, so no sense building a short list without taking that into account. I think the Druids look cool but am not sure about their placement needs and pretty sure my wife would not go for their monolith-dominant look....

Alwayswantmore.....thanks for the kind offer - is everyone in Alabama so nice? Not gonna work though, as I'm living in Switzerland - on the shores of Lake Geneva actually. Been scarily warm here this year - just came back from a jaunt with some friends in the mountains and there is no snow....not a flake. Plus 10 degrees at 2,000 meters (that's like 50 degrees for those of you still on Fahrenheit - only the US I think?). Anyway you asked what music I like and the answer is pretty wide - rock, jazz, blues, alternative, some techno some hip hop some classic....vocal control and passages of music highlighting one instrument (a sax, drums, wailing guitar, whatever) are things I like. Right now just cycling thru some stuff off my iPod - currently on old Peter Gabriel, just before was Stereophonics, and before that was Eva Cassidy, and before that was Miles Davis, and before that was Death Cab for Cutie, and before that was Diana Krall....sorry, no Skynyrd recently but I is/was a serious Skynyrd fan. So basically I like lots of stuff - although I don't really think of any of these artists being mainstream pop performers and find they all have something musically redeeming about them....

Dave

[macrojack]

Dave,
I doubt that an omnidirectional speaker is a good choice to be placed against the front wall unless you are going for the Bose direct-reflecting effect. Further, I think that using a speaker of less than 90 db efficiency with the Sig 30 would be less than optimum. An 84 db speaker might not work at all in a room that large.
My own listening room is an L-shape also. The wall behind my listening position is 15 feet wide. My speakers are on a wall which is 26 feet wide but I confine the speaker placement to within the corresponding 15 feet. In other words, my right speaker is about 3 feet from the right side wall and my left speaker is symmetrically placed with no wall to its left. The room is 22 feet front to back. Is this what you meant about your placement and challenges?
I now have Definitions, but I started with Druids against the wall. Placement with these speakers is not critical at all aside from the gap between their plinth and the floor. The Druid is monolithic looking but, because it is only 6.5 inches deep, it doesn't have a particularly imposing presence. My wife liked their looks but, of course, that says nothing about your own WAF prospects. They have a somewhat Euro-industrial character that may or may not suit your decor. If you can get them past her, however, there are few if any better choices to pair with a Sig 30. I use one of those too. 

[Alwayswantmore]

...currently on old Peter Gabriel, just before was Stereophonics, and before that was Eva Cassidy, and before that was Miles Davis, and before that was Death Cab for Cutie, and before that was Diana Krall....sorry, no Skynyrd recently but I is/was a serious Skynyrd fan. So basically I like lots of stuff - although I don't really think of any of these artists being mainstream pop performers and find they all have something musically redeeming about them....

Hi Dave, I have CDs from 5 of the 7 artists you mention above, so our tastes definitely overlap 

Alwayswantmore.....thanks for the kind offer - is everyone in Alabama so nice?

No. Only those who own RWA or Omega products.

[dave_in_gva]

macrojack thanks for the advice against putting an omni-directional speaker against the wall. I really don't know much about those speaker designs. Also thanks for the info on the Druids......so I can really put those right up against the wall, huh? It is true that their thinness could make them look less imposing maybe....I'll have to think about that. In  my room when I am in serious listening mode it's basically near field - I'd be around 6-8 feet away from either speaker and they'd be 9 feet apart from each other, centred on this 15' wall. My main listening position there is a 2-seater couch which sits in the 15' space just at the point where the toe part of the L merges into the bigger part of the room that is off to my left as I face the speakers. This means I do not have any other wall close to me at that point, the 'back' wall is about 18' behind me. Ceilings are standard kind of height, no sloping or what have you, and there's minimal furniture and hardwood flooring. Acoustically it's a room thats going to to sound lively and a bit on the bright side.

Zack thanks for the PM - tough decisions indeed...

Alwayswantsmore.....guess it's good news our music tastes overlap and even better for me to know that with that overlap you are happy with the RWA Sig.....

Best,

Dave

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Dave,

If the speakers are going to be placed very close to the wall behind them, I'd stay away from rear-ported designed. 

Based on Macrojack's experience with the Druids, these are an option.  Zu does custom painting so that may add to the WAF if you let her have input on the color you go with 

Another option is the Omega Revolution that ZLS has.  These have no trouble being placed close to the wall, as they are sealed.



Louis can make these in different finishes, and can make the base match the speakers.  He will also be using the upcoming 8" Hemp driver (high Qts version) once it is released. 

I also have a customer using the Sig 30 with Vienna Acoustic Schonberg Series speakers and is very pleased with the results: http://www.sumikoaudio.net/va/idx_shbg.htm

These were designed for being close to the wall, or attached to the wall.

Not sure if they'll fit your decor or not 

Hope these ideas help,

Vinnie

[tmarshl]

Hi Dave,

If the speakers are going to be placed very close to the wall behind them, I'd stay away from rear-ported designed. 

Based on Macrojack's experience with the Druids, these are an option.  Zu does custom painting so that may add to the WAF if you let her have input on the color you go with 

Another option is the Omega Revolution that ZLS has.  These have no trouble being placed close to the wall, as they are sealed.



Louis can make these in different finishes, and can make the base match the speakers.  He will also be using the upcoming 8" Hemp driver (high Qts version) once it is released. 

I also have a customer using the Sig 30 with Vienna Acoustic Schonberg Series speakers and is very pleased with the results: http://www.sumikoaudio.net/va/idx_shbg.htm

These were designed for being close to the wall, or attached to the wall.

Not sure if they'll fit your decor or not 

Hope these ideas help,

Vinnie

I have the Signature 30 driving a pair of Omega Revolutions which are quite close to the wall.  They sound fantastic, and just keep getting better!  I can second what Vinnie recomends from first-hand experience.

Tom

[Bucky]

I would reccomend a speaker that is greater than 88 dB (and if that low one that is easier to drive).  I've always wanted to try the Signature 30 on my speakers (JA RM7XL), but i've tried other chip amps that have comparable specs to the Sig 30 and while they can drive them (I do have a small room though) and they did sound good with simple vocal + guitar music, I felt they lost alot of focus on heavier music like a NIN, Rage Against the Machine, etc...