[Alwayswantmore]

Hi, I’ve been using Vinnie’s wonderful Signature 30 to drive K1000 headphones for a few months. Now I want to purchase high efficiency speakers, again for the Signature 30.

Any input you can provide based on your experiences will be greatly appreciated.

Background:

Budget: $2,000 or less per pair
Room: Relatively small with carpet and 9” ceiling
Associated Equip: Wadia 830 CDP directly to Signature 30. I also have a fast powered subwoofer (Vandersteen 2W, which – believe it or not –blends pretty well with the K1000s).
Musical tastes: Small instrumental and vocals (D. Krall, Linda Rondstad, Eric Clapton (unplugged), etc.)

Based on my current research, I’m leaning toward the Omega Compact Hemp on the high-end; or maybe something like the Omega 3XRS as a way to save money (maybe wait for the new Hemp drivers?)

I’ve owned many speakers over the decades (from Magnaplaners T1Bs to Klipsch LaScalas to Cizek KA1s to Acoustic Energy AE-1s w/ Vandersteen 2W...), but have never heard a pair of single driver speakers. Reading about them on this site makes me drool.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[nonoise]

Always:

I have a pair of Ed's Hornshoppe Horns and couldn't be happier. Like yours, my room is small and carpeted and the Horns mate beautifully with the Sig 30. My sub is not as good as yours ( its a knock-off of a Hsu: same parts and construction but with a better plate amp) and I dialed it in to fill in the bottom end.
It works really well.
The Horns will be the last speaker I buy. I think that highly of them.
Same goes for the Sig 30.
Hope this helps.

Tim

[macrojack]

Vinnie will tell you that a lot of Sig 30 users are very happy with Zu speakers. I'm one of them. You can find a used pair of Druids on Audiogon for about $2000. I have no experience with  Omega so I can't compare them but I suspect that the Zu will deliver a broader frequency spectrum allowing you to introduce your sub at a lower XO point. Check them out.

[Srajan Ebaen]

I'd second the Zu Druid Mk IV and Hornshoppe Horns recommendations. The Horns want to be corner-loaded so unlike middle-of-the-room trip-over-cables positioning, they actually like to be kinda hidden away in the corners. That makes them very living-room friendly if you have corners available for speakers. At $820/pr for the Horns with a 30-day satisfaction guarantee, it's the no-brainiest way of exploring the higher-eff genre I know of. Plus -- blatant capitalist propaganda alert -- Ed Schilling will donate a small percentage of each sale of the next 7 horns to the Terry Cain Medical Fund.

The Omegas are another natural matchup of course and my guys like the Omega 3 Xtended response model a lot. I haven't personally heard it but I completely trust Jeff and Stephaen who've sampled a few Omega models and bought some.

So nothing really new when viewed against the other responses so far, just further confirmation that these would indeed be nice matches.

[JLM]

Room size?  Musical taste?  Listening preferences? 

I've heard The Horns and Omega Super 3.  Both would need a sub IMO (but you obviously have the budget to do it).  The Horns are so small that they can get "lost" around furnishings and are very fussy about room placement (to balance soundstage and room reinforcement of bass).  They're narrow and so prone to tipping over around kids or pets.  The Super 3 is remarkable considering the relatively cheap driver used and exhibits much better woodworking, but without a sub can sound comparatively "thin" and of course would require stands.  Both are in the ballpark of efficiencies I'd be looking for the match to the Sig 30.

The Omega XRS is again a low floorstander, probably a good bass match to a small room, but also distractingly low for imaging and hiding behind furniture.

The Zu speakers I've read don't go as low as you might think and are very efficient (which can be a problem if you have any A/C, RF, tube microphonics, etc. types of noise).

I advocate single driver or extended range speakers but do recommend that you make sure the driver itself is a high quality, good sounding one (there's no place for a poor driver to hide in such a design).  The money saved on not buying other parts should be put into that driver.  Check out Bob Brines stuff, where 1/3 to 1/2 of the price of the speaker goes into the drivers:

http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/

[ZLS]

I would suggest that you call up Louis at Omega and ask him if he has any suggestions.  Louis is very accessible and open to suggestions.  He is also very honorable, and will suggest what you need, not what makes him the most money.  This has been my experience with Louis. 
    The other suggestions are also valid; with the Sig 30 and a good speaker you are about to enter Audio Nirvana.

[macrojack]

JLM - What gives? You warn the poster that several of the speakers recommended by other members might need a sub even though he mentioned that he has one. Then you warn against the Zu Druids because you "read that they don't go as low as you might think" and warn against their high efficiency causing potential problems with RF and microphonics when he has said that he has a battery-powered solid state amp.
If you really want to help this guy, you should start by reading his request. Your response indicates that you failed to do so.
Incidentally, Zu manufacrures their own drivers to a standard that is not surpassed anywhere and the bass reponse of the Druid reaches just below 40 hz. I can't assure you that it is the best choice for this poster but I can assure all of you that it has no inherent drawbacks.

[Dmason]

I rely on my ears to form an opinion on sound. I now have heard each of these speakers with the Signature 30, and in all cases they sounded great.

Macrojack,

JLM is our self-appointed, self-anointed "ombudsman," his duty being to balance the "arguments" for and against; we should applaud his ever-vigilant stance. He has read extensively on the subject of home audio, and is thus well qualified to proffer his expertise on the matter. In this case, serving to "attenuate" Srajan's comments, Srajan being abit of a newbie in audio to be offering such sweeping opinion. As JLM comes from a standpoint of correctness, I believe his efforts on our behalf are very well worthwhile.

[Alwayswantmore]

Thanks to all for your comments. Now Zu and The Horn are on my "watch list."

I'm reluctant to bring in a bunch of speakers on trial, if for no other reason than shipping costs add up. So I like to narrow the field through this type of forum.

I owe Srajan a belated thank you for helping to turn me on to the Signature 30 in the first place. I have also had numerous dialogs with Vinnie, and he rates tops in my book. I've also had an initial conversation with Louis (Omega) -- and like Vinnie -- he seems like a great guy to work with.

The room I plan to use will be an extra bedroom, dedicated to music and reading (13x12 with a 10 foot ceiling). Part of my decision is whether to blow my wad completely on speakers (which may be overkill for such a small room), or go with something less expensive (like The Horn or 3XRS), and commit the balance of my budget to upgrading my K1000s earphones with the Equinox hardwire (about $500 - $600).

From these comments I take it that The Horns could be great, but are VERY room dependent. I love the price point on the 3XRS, but I would be concerned if their diminutive size took away from their ability to image well. I know very little about the Zu's, so this will force me to do some further digging.

Again, your comments and impression are welcome and appreciated. Kent

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Kent,

For your small room, I think you might be better off with the Super 3 V2s (which need stands) over the Super 3 XRS.  You'll get the imagine that you are after, cna you can always use your sub *if* you find that you need more bass.  A small, square-ish room like yours is going to have some bass reinforcement (and probably more standing waves than you want!).  The Super 3 V2s are front ported, so you can place them closer to the walls.  The 3 XRS are rear ported and need some room behind them to breath... they might be a little boomy otherwise.  The Horn is the opposite to the 3 XRS in that it likes to be closer to the corners (which you might like in a small room so you can use it for other things too).

Believe it or not, Omega Compact Hemps are rear-ported but I haven't found them to be boomy placed close to the wall behind them.  That hemp driver and larger cabinet is quite a big jump up in performance compared to the Super 3 V2 or XRS.  The new drivers that are coming out (I heard the prototype pair) are probably one of the very best 8" single driver speakers you'll find.  They will blow your mind!  I also heard the new 4.5" prototype hemp and I have to say that it beats the fostex in every way.  Louis will have no use for the Fostex 127E once the new 4.5" hemps (which are being made) reach his shop.

I have numerous Sig 30 + Zu Druid (and Defintion) customers and everyone loves this pairing!  The Druids have a small footprint, which I think is nice for a small room.  I doubt you'd want to use a sub with them in a small room.  They are also tall floorstanders, so they'll clear obsticles in your room if you have any to compete with.  Just make sure your listening chair isn't a low-rider because this might put the drivers higher than your ears. 

I hope this helps,

Vinnie






 

[macrojack]

dmason,
Are you suggesting that JLM's reading should trump the actual observations of those who like yourself rely on their ears to form an opinion on sound?
In the case of the Zu Druid, his writing suggests that he has no experience with the speaker but is repeating that which he has read. That is hardly as useful as the recommendation of an owner who lives with the speaker.
Your comments to me, while kind, hint that I as an outsider may not have shown proper defference to a member of your club. However, I am a member, and as such feel it is my option to question dubious, misplaced or unqualified statements, particularly when the author is merely repeating rumors.
I'm going to withhold my applause.
Srajan has been the editor of an on line audio review publication which, to my way of thinking is the best currently available for something like 6 years now. He has experience with many audio products that he has reviewed extensively. Calling him a newbie in audio at this point is preposterous regardless of what position your friend has appointed himself to.

[dewar]

In a room that size, can I suggest the Zu Tone.

I run one with a Clari-T and I'm sure it will sound even better with the Sig 30.

cheers

B.

[Dmason]

Macrojack,

I am very sorry my sarcasm was abit obscure to you; however I doubt it was missed by those who are more familiar with JLM's writings.

He is an Audiocircle gadfly whose prose is based solely on his reading. Long on advice and short on any real hands-on experience. Face it JLM, 'tis true. If we followed his reasoning, we ALL would be enjoying the fruits of the Brines' F200a transmission line speaker, an alignment I myself built, tested, and subsequently discarded, the cabinets were burned in a beach bonfire, to be truthful. They completely lacked the inner light of higher sensitivity wideband drivers, and therefore they cannot be paired with more transparent, low powered amplifiers, which is a prerequisite to so many music lovers... In My Opinion, in my ears, my home, my time, my dime.

Yes, I am familiar with Srajan's background, and I was being entirely sarcastic. I consider him one of my dear cyber-cronies, internet based audio friends, and I do not use the word "friend," casually. Srajan is suggesting these speakers as good partners based on actual experience. And Ear.

Please reread my post in this light. I am very sorry for having come across as being supportive of JLM's "role" on these august circles. The last thing I should wish to be seen as is supportive of JLM's "role," on these august circles.

[macrojack]

To all,

I have had private correspondence and a very satisfying business deal with dmason in the past and was entirely surprised by what he had to say to my mild rebuke of JLM. My surprise was the result of my inability to recognize well crafted sarcasm. So let me issue an apology as needed to any reader who felt I crossed the line in crossing dmason. As for JLM, the cat is out of the bag and I will now know that he is not casually out of order with his stupid renderings of misinformation and innuendo but quite likely malicious and deliberate in belittling legitimate products for the purpose of advocating for his chosen manufacturer.
Having observed a lot of this kind of underhanded promotiom om Audiogon, I'm embarrassed to have missed it here.

[friend2alldogs]

I was going to suggest this Abby/Bailey package as it is one of the best deals I've seen in awhile but looks like it is sold. http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1169559209 Abbys might be something to consider with your musical tastes/sub.

[lonewolfny42]

My two cents......
I don't think you will have any problem picking whatever speaker you'd like to use. I'm also a Sig. 30 owner...its breaking in now. My room is 12 x12....and I'm using a Mirage M-3 speaker.......and I have no problem hitting 95db+ with the Sig. 30.
And....across the board, bass, mids, highs.....all sounding good.
When I'm ready, I'll match it with my pair of my Omega A8's....or try one of the new Hemp Omega's.
In fact....since the 30 is a small amp, you might take it in to your local audio store, and audition a few speaker's with it....just a thought.
Have fun.....

                                                Chris

[GHM]

Macrojack,

Face it JLM, 'tis true. If we followed his reasoning, we ALL would be enjoying the fruits of the Brines' F200a transmission line speaker, an alignment I myself built, tested, and subsequently discarded, the cabinets were burned in a beach bonfire, to be truthful. They completely lacked the inner light of higher sensitivity wideband drivers, and therefore they cannot be paired with more transparent, low powered amplifiers, which is a prerequisite to so many music lovers...

Wow Dmason..I've always been grateful for your postings and experience here, but do not throw the baby out with the bath water. To do so would be an injustice to Bob Brines and Martin King who both really do know their stuff beyond some of the masquerading speaker manufactures out there. You guys should play nice... no need to slander one another.

To all,

I have had private correspondence and a very satisfying business deal with dmason in the past and was entirely surprised by what he had to say to my mild rebuke of JLM. My surprise was the result of my inability to recognize well crafted sarcasm. So let me issue an apology as needed to any reader who felt I crossed the line in crossing dmason. As for JLM, the cat is out of the bag and I will now know that he is not casually out of order with his stupid renderings of misinformation and innuendo but quite likely malicious and deliberate in belittling legitimate products for the purpose of advocating for his chosen manufacturer.
Having observed a lot of this kind of underhanded promotiom om Audiogon, I'm embarrassed to have missed it here.

Macrojack aren't you linked to a Zu dealer or something like that out of Great Britian(maybe not GB but a dealer some where)? You may not know me but I know you. You emailed me once suggesting the Zu Druid were the end to all sound. When you want to hear a true fullrange single driver let me know..I think you'll then understand what a true 40hz response sounds like. I'm not talking from subwoofer drivers either.

My two cents......
I don't think you will have any problem picking whatever speaker you'd like to use. I'm also a Sig. 30 owner...its breaking in now. My room is 12 x12....and I'm using a Mirage M-3 speaker.......and I have no problem hitting 95db+ with the Sig. 30.
And....across the board, bass, mids, highs.....all sounding good.
When I'm ready, I'll match it with my pair of my Omega A8's....or try one of the new Hemp Omega's.
In fact....since the 30 is a small amp, you might take it in to your local audio store, and audition a few speaker's with it....just a thought.
Have fun.....

                                                Chris

Chris has the right idea..take your unit to the audio shops and hear for yourself. None of us hear exactly the same. This is the best advice anyone could give.

Good luck

[Dmason]

GHM

I have to take exception to the notion that I am selling either Bob Brines, or Martin King short. I have stunning respect for both of them, and their work, and have relied on Martin's worksheets about five times now. I think Bob knows the MLTL better than ANYONE, and his designs are fabulous. I, however, was referring to SOUND. Further, I consider both these gentlemen also, cyber friends in audio... Why does the music so often get lost in all of this, with so many people so apparently interested in music? My own thinking is that they are more interested in the equipment. They are "stereophiles." I am first a humble music lover/trained, published musician, cursed with perfect pitch and the ability to play several instruments, as my only reference to that which I choose to like or dislike. My only point was that IN MY OPINION, the Fostex F200A, (which I consider to be a stunning industrial achievement in the Japanese tradition of improving existing ideas, -in this case the now outdated 1960's JBL LE-8,) to be a musical flop. In conversation with a well known speaker designer, also a friend of mine, I could not find the words to describe the sound, he offered, "dead?" "Yes, I said, that about sums it up." I really wanted to like it, but alas, did not. I offered these expensive drivers for sale on these august circles in order to recoup some of the near $800 expense, a reasonable action in my view, and, while I think of it, some time later had it pointed out to me that JLM had referred to me as a "wheeler dealer type," a "horsetrader," on the Brines Forum. Horsetrader? Hardly a compliment, hardly realistic, hardly deserved, and hardly referencial to the fact that I was spending alot of hard earned money testing many many wideband drivers, and gladly sharing these results which apparently benefitted many, many people who otherwise would not have had access to this level of comparative information, judging by the sheer amount of email correspondence I received in the form of questions seeking advice, this being a matter of record, and for the further record, there have been ALOT of queries. I should add I was only too happy to take the time to help these people, with anything I happened to have learned from first hand experience, and the committment of time and treasure.

 So, you see Gymane, sometimes there is more to things than meets the eye. The important thing here is that YOU enjoy your speakers. This makes me genuinely happy, because you are one of the good ones. As far as auditioning and testing speaker drivers, it is my ears that decide. Theirs are the only opinions I care about.

[ZLS]

    Gentlemen,

    Ti's the season to be jolly!

    This is supposed to be about the Signature 30, so I put it to Mr. Vinnie Rossi,what is the minimum efficiency that speakers need to have in order for the Sig 30 to sound ideal.  Also, what should the impedance curve of the speakers look like.  What load is the Sig 30 comfortable driving?

[bradmorris1]

FWIW I own the Sig 30 Hornshoppe combo and it is match made in heaven provided you supply some low end reinforcement, especially if you like the horns out in the room like I do. The 30 does flush out the bottom end like no other amp I've tried.  If you like picking up bass lines be forwarned. You may stop listening to vocals and guitar riffs as every bass note comes through so cleanly its hard not to pay attention.  This combo is especially good for nearfield listening and low to medium volumes in a small to medium size room.  FOr you are there dynamic realism at concert level volumes I don't believe the Fostex driver is up to the task.  I broke in a pair of Zu Druids for my parents which provide this sort of impact but sacrifice some upper end clarity to do so.

On another note everyone is talking about the Sig 30s as soundinbg better without a preamp.  When I AB'd my system with and without my SAS Audio Labs 10a I chose to leave the 10a in the system.  Yes the Sig 30 alone give a kind of spooky telescope image deep into every nook and cranny of the soundfield but it was just a tad too much for me.  THe 10a warms up the image just a tad and allows me to relax and tap my feet.