[innov8ion]

Hiya!  I'm fairly new to Audio Circle and just moved to a loft downtown from UCity.  Pretty cool to run into this group now as I'm starting on a new system as we speak.

I currently have the following and they will be up for sale quite soon:

• Onkyo A-SV610PRO Receiver
• NHT Super Two (pair)
• NHT Super Center
• NHT Super One (pair)
• Velodyne SPL 1200 Sub

Just purchased the following ACI gear which should be far more musical. 

• ACI Sapphire XL (pair) and matching stands
• ACI Force XL Sub

Unfortunately I hadn't listened to them in person, but they got such great reviews, I got a killer deal, and they seemed to fit exactly what I was looking for.  I'd like to keep things simple with an excellent 2-channel system that will integrate well with a living room "home theater."  I think I'd like to replace my current receiver with a decent pre/pro and 2 channel amplifier.  Here's my rambling thoughts on the topic:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=33423.0

Also, the loft could probably use some acoustic treatment... I'm definitely not an expert in this area and could probably use some pointers.  I think someone in the group is an acoustic expert and is working on a partnership with GIK Acoustics?  I've seen their stuff online and it looked good.

Definitely interested in coming to a meeting sometime and getting to know you guys...

Take care,
Dave

[bpape]

Hi Dave.

Welcome to the area and the group.  It's a great bunch of guys.  We get together somewhat regularly in smaller or larger groups at different peoples' houses. 

The ACI stuff is very nice.  It does want some power and is revealing of what drives it and is in front of it.  I'd shoot for a pre/pro and a good amp.  A receiver isn't going to get it.

As for your room, shoot me a PM with your number and I'll give you a call.  We'll work out a time I can come over and take a look and we can discuss your needs.

Bryan

[Scott F.]

Hi Dave,

Welcome to the group

When it comes to your question about matching to your new ACI's, Bryan is right, I think they would do best with some current. Unfortunately, I don't know of a receiver that will has those kind of marbles (not saying there isn't one somewhere, I just don't know about it).

Since you are thinking HT rather than dedicated 2 channel, you may want to make it by Alan's and give a listen to his Butler amp. I really think it would make the Sapphires sing. Then I would look towards something like a Outlaw Audio 970 (or 990) pre/pro. The five channel Butler costs the same as the 2 channel (though it has less wattage). You can go new if you have the cash to spare or they show up on Agon quasi-regularly. Same goes for the Outlaw.

If you'd rather do a one box solution, I'd go see Tim (electricbear) at The Sound Room at Olive & 270. He should be able to sift through all of the HT receivers and give you one that sounds good yet still has enough current to feed your ACI's.

When it comes to getting together, watch this circle. The Christmas bash is coming up in less than a month.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=31822.0

[innov8ion]

Scott, Bryan and everyone - thanks for the welcome...  I probably didn't phrase it right.  I wanted to keep things as clean as possible, so I thought I would stay with just the 2-channel + the sub...  I'm be fine watching movies with this.  But now I look at it, and my room just might be conducive to 2 surrounds and a center as well.    If that's the case, maybe a 5 channel amp would be a good idea.

I need to do some drawing to better show the setup, but here's the floor plan:  http://www.crosscapp.com/1136/fp_04.pdf.  I plan on having my home theater equip on the wall where the sofa is shown.  On that wall, I'd like to put an electric fireplace in there... Then a flat panel above that.  Working with a designer and she said they build it out with drywall.  Would like to do some inwall shelving for the AV equip vertically on the side of the wall nearest the windows....  Not sure how a center channel could be placed....  The two surrounds could probably go on the opposite walls.  One resting in the corner of the pillar near the kitchen island and other other in the corner nearest the window....  Looks like that would be fun routing speaker wires.... My ceiling is 14' tall!  So I'd probably want to hire someone to work up some plans in collaboration with my designer.  Is Tim good with this kind of thing?  Is this a bit decadent?  Maybe, but I think adding the fireplace and inwall shelving for A/V will increase property value....

Woah, just saw the Butler.  The TBD-5150 or 2250 is it?  Those look like serious machines!  Makes me smile just looking at it and the specs... Tubes even...  I would be interested in hearing the Butler 5 channel at some point.  Not sure if it's in my price range though.  Looks like $3300 retail and perhaps $2500 used?

Outlaw has the 7500 which looks to be a respectable 200 watt x 5 channel amplifier for $1600.  Most likely not in the same league as the Butler, but looks like it would be serviceable nonetheless.  http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7500.html. 

Outlaw also has the 7125 which is 125 x 5 for about $900.  This may or may not be enough headroom.  Note, I'm in a condo so I can't exactly blast the stereo all the time unfortunately. 

The Outlaw 970 pre/pro would definitely work out....  I'd probably upgrade it after they offer one with HDMI 1.3...

Heh, you guys are great in getting me to rethink my strategy (even if it's my stupid fault for not explaining what I was initially thinking...)

Hi Dave,

Welcome to the group

When it comes to your question about matching to your new ACI's, Bryan is right, I think they would do best with some current. Unfortunately, I don't know of a receiver that will has those kind of marbles (not saying there isn't one somewhere, I just don't know about it).

Since you are thinking HT rather than dedicated 2 channel, you may want to make it by Alan's and give a listen to his Butler amp. I really think it would make the Sapphires sing. Then I would look towards something like a Outlaw Audio 970 (or 990) pre/pro. The five channel Butler costs the same as the 2 channel (though it has less wattage). You can go new if you have the cash to spare or they show up on Agon quasi-regularly. Same goes for the Outlaw.

If you'd rather do a one box solution, I'd go see Tim (electricbear) at The Sound Room at Olive & 270. He should be able to sift through all of the HT receivers and give you one that sounds good yet still has enough current to feed your ACI's.

When it comes to getting together, watch this circle. The Christmas bash is coming up in less than a month.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=31822.0

[bpape]

It's not so much the raw power - it's the current, speed, damping, etc.   While the Outlaw is a good bang for the buck, it really isn't in the same league as the Butler.  We have someone in our group who was running VTL amps and he switched to the Butler.  Even that was orders of magnitude improvement.

If it were me and wanted to do HT and music on a more limited budget and had those speakers, I'd concentrate on the 2.1 right now and get quality pieces.  If you're serious about music reproduction, you don't want the video mixing with the audio system anyway so HDMI is a no-no.

If you get a decent preamp with 2 outputs, you can run the controls on the sub directly and run the Sapphires without a crossover messing things up.  That's the way we ran them in the ACI room at RMAF and it was an excellent match. 

If you want to later do a 5 channel system, consdier a preamp with a home theater bypass switch on it. 

Look at this:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=33021.0

WAY big step up from what you've looked at and has remote and the HT bypass

Then match it with something like this:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1168572074

or

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1168270803

I'll guarantee you that these combos would be a huge step up in music quality and will absolutely drive the ACI's.  The 2nd amp has the newer board and the upgraded power supply caps.

If you decide to go 5 channel, I'm actually selling my HT amp to downsize the HT and provide some cash influx for the music system.  It's a Sunfire Cinema Grand - 5 channels @ 200 WPC.  Balanced and single ended inputs, 2 sets of outputs - either voltage source or current source.  PM me if you decide to go this way.  I can bring it over when we look at your room and you can try it out.

Bryan

[innov8ion]

Very interesting feedback.  You gentleman are a wealth of information.  The Butler was orders of magnitude improved over the VTL, eh?  I'm not familiar with VTL, but I will assume they are a fair amount better than the Outlaws.  I know the Outlaws aren't superlative.  They're probably similar to Adcom, NAD, etc but cheaper.  That's what's special about them in my opinion.  But the Butlers, these sound like they are very special. I'm interested in learning more about the Butler...  Does it come in 2 channel?  How does it compare with the Odyssey Stratos you like?

So you worked with Mike in the ACI room at RMAF?  Wow, that is very cool...  Were you working the acoustics?

Don't want to mix video and audio signals ala HDMI?  Hmm, interesting.  There's really an audible difference?  What is recommended then?  DVI for video and component for audio?

Here's many options for sub hookup for the ACI's.  http://www.audioc.com/library1/subsetupft.htm... So I would be starting out with a sub and 2 sapphires...    I take it you're recommending setup #4 from the link above...

Very interesting regarding that pre/pro with the HT bypass.  After I read about it, I googled "HT bypass" and found this article promoting 2.0 theater, foregoing the surrounds and center.  http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/enough/enough.html.  You know, the idea is really tempting....not to mention more forgiving to my wallet.  I think that's the first decision......whether I want to start out with a 5 channel amp or 2.  I like the idea of simplicity...  The costs of the pre/pros and stratos amps are in my price range.  I think they'd be a good start (maybe a Butler 2 channel too.)  Your Sunfire Cinema Grand has great reviews but I think I've decided to start out with 2.1.  The Odyssey has a 20 year warranty???? Checked out this review... Looks awesome, great value!  http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/odysseyaudio_stratos.htm

I'd like to pull the trigger on the latter Stratos with the upgrade.  Gotta wait until Audiogon approves my account ... Less clear about a pre/pro... You think the Outlaw 970 would do me fine?

Heh, my place.... I'm still painting.  Hope to be done with it in a week.  I'll message you my #... I really appreciate your advice.  If I can be of help with whatever, let me know.  I love photography, have a nice Canon 30D SLR w/ great lens and am adept with computing and technology...

This sense of community is great...

Dave

It's not so much the raw power - it's the current, speed, damping, etc.   While the Outlaw is a good bang for the buck, it really isn't in the same league as the Butler.  We have someone in our group who was running VTL amps and he switched to the Butler.  Even that was orders of magnitude improvement.

If it were me and wanted to do HT and music on a more limited budget and had those speakers, I'd concentrate on the 2.1 right now and get quality pieces.  If you're serious about music reproduction, you don't want the video mixing with the audio system anyway so HDMI is a no-no.

If you get a decent preamp with 2 outputs, you can run the controls on the sub directly and run the Sapphires without a crossover messing things up.  That's the way we ran them in the ACI room at RMAF and it was an excellent match. 

If you want to later do a 5 channel system, consdier a preamp with a home theater bypass switch on it. 

Look at this:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=33021.0

WAY big step up from what you've looked at and has remote and the HT bypass

Then match it with something like this:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1168572074

or

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1168270803

I'll guarantee you that these combos would be a huge step up in music quality and will absolutely drive the ACI's.  The 2nd amp has the newer board and the upgraded power supply caps.

If you decide to go 5 channel, I'm actually selling my HT amp to downsize the HT and provide some cash influx for the music system.  It's a Sunfire Cinema Grand - 5 channels @ 200 WPC.  Balanced and single ended inputs, 2 sets of outputs - either voltage source or current source.  PM me if you decide to go this way.  I can bring it over when we look at your room and you can try it out.

Bryan

[bpape]

Gentlemen?  I think I resemble that remark

Anyway - yes - #4 it is.  That's what Mike recommends and what he used at the show.  While the xover in the sub is fine for a cutoff, it's not recommended to feed the output back to your mains.  We did the acoustic treatments for him, Selah/Blue Circle, and Boulder Cable/VMPS.

Having the video in the processor just introduces a lot of unecessary issues and cost into the equation.  Connection would be component video or HDMI/DVI to display and 2 channel analog outs to preamp (or coax digital SPDIF to DAC to processor).

If you're going to stay with 2 channel, then why are you looking at a 7.1 processor?  Why not just to a 2 channel preamp for now and then add the processor later IF you decide to go multi-channel.  Sure, you don't have DD/DTS decoding but realistically, IMO, with 2.1 it's not really an issue.  This also lets you wait it out until the HD DVD wars sort themselves out.

Bryan

[steve k]

We have someone in our group who was running VTL amps and he switched to the Butler.  Even that was orders of magnitude improvement.

Woa Nellie,
That's not exactly true. He was biamping his VMPS with a VTL ST-85 stereo amp on top and Carver Pro monoblocks on the bass without using an active crossover. I suspect the issues you heard were more due to the interaction or lack of between these amps and the VMPS' crossover point than due to the VTL. A fairer comparison would be to compare the Butler full range with VTL's of comparable output such as the MB-185 monoblocks , MB-300's or the MB-450's.
steve

[bpape]

Agreed - it wasn't the same full range setup that we listened to some months ago - though I think the other night we did in fact run the VTL's full range for a little while - didn't we?

The VMPS's are supposed to have the passive xover in tact even when biamping.  Even so, many of the places the Butler excelled in that particular system were well above the xover point.  The bottom end control is a different story.

Bryan 

[steve k]

We heard the VTL full range on the open baffle.

[bpape]

Ah.  OK.  I was thinking we listened to it on the 40's too before switching back to the Butler.  My bad.

Anyway, I should qualify the last post.  Don't get me wrong.  The VTL's are very nice amps.  On Steve's system with Maggies and the autoformers and bi-amped, they do an excellent job.  As always, it depends on the system requirements. 

I'd agree that the 300 or 450 would be a closer comparison to the Butler.  Unfortunately, for the budget at hand, neither of those is likely to be an option.  Even the Butler, used, is going to stretch the budget.  I just don't think that the VTL's available used in the price range are going to grab hold of the ACI's and control them.  At the show, they were taking everything the Valve Audio 200 WPC integrated was putting out.  It's a hybrid - tube pre section and SS amp section.

Also, as far as amps for the ACI's in general, it doesn't have to be an Odyssey.  I just grabbed the first couple of links I found on the used market that were in the price range and had the necessary oomph to drive the Sapphires and control them in the bottom end.  In terms of sound quality, the VTL's, the Butler, and the Odyssey are all going to be a definite improvement over the Outlaw.  Not that they're bad amps by any stretch, just not in the same class in terms of refinement for a speaker that's as revealing as the Sapphire.

Bryan

[steve k]

Another option would be a used Musical Design D-150. It's a very warm, clean sounding amp which packs a lot of punch, particularly with the Platinum mods.
steve

[Bob in St. Louis]

Hello Dave, welcome (from one "newgasser" to another)   

Bob

[innov8ion]

Hey Bob... Thx for the recommendation, Steve...

I can get the Dussun V-8i for $1k plus shipping.  Mr. ACI himself, Mike Dzurko, says the following:  "There are so many ways you can go to power it, the option that strikes me first is the Dussan V8i integrated amp. Rick Gardner at Positive Feedback has greatly praised this combo as has Joe at Jamn' Audio and others. Based on hearing so many great things about this amp to power Sapphire Xls, we'd requested one for RMAF, shipping problems got in the way . . .  but I'd most seriously consider that option . . ."

Guy from Positive Feedback has reviewed the Dussun's and says they sound fantastic with the Sapphires (although the V-8i could be a little overkill: 
- http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue24/dussun.htm
- http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue27/aci_forcexl.htm
- http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue23/sapphire_xl.htm

It's an integrated, so I wouldn't have to worry about adding a preamp.  If I want to use a separate pre/pro in the future, I have the flexibility to do so.  I suppose I could find a video switcher that will work for a negligible amount...

Whatcha think?

[innov8ion]

Bryan, regarding the subwoofer connection, I'd like to toss this by you to see what you think. 

Page 52 of Tone Audio's Sapphire XL review refers to the subwoofer connection and suggests hooking it up in the way you suggested, minus the in-line high-pass crossovers:  http://www.tonepublications.com/images/TA_005.pdf

He says using the in-line high-pass crossovers works well if you have a low-powerd tube amplifier, but if you have the juice, to run the XL's full range and tweaking the crossover on the sub.  I would definitely have the juice if I went for the Dussun V-8i.

[bpape]

That's the way Mike ran it at the show.  Sapphires full range and the 2nd pre-out on the preamp to the line in on the Force.  Takes the xover in the sub out of the signal path for the mains.  Set the xover on the sub to about 40Hz which is the LF cutoff for the Sapphires.

Bryan

[sturgus]

Dave, I also would like to welcome you to our group. There is a wealth of info among the guys here. We should be able to help get you on the right path. I think you have a very good foundation with the ACI speakers. The cool thing is there is a lot of nice equipment between us to play with. You should find something to suite your taste. Hope to meet you soon.
Sturgus

[innov8ion]

Thanks Sturgus.  The Dussun V-8i is on it's way...  I should have everything by end of the week

Dave, I also would like to welcome you to our group. There is a wealth of info among the guys here. We should be able to help get you on the right path. I think you have a very good foundation with the ACI speakers. The cool thing is there is a lot of nice equipment between us to play with. You should find something to suite your taste. Hope to meet you soon.
Sturgus

[DeadFish]

Hey Dave, 

Again, 'Welcome Aboard'!
Glad to see another GAS member chime in, and extra glad you are getting the Saphire XLs!  I *really* liked 'em at RMAF.
Looking forward to your 'learning curve' with 'em and hearing about it. 
And an amp I've never heard coming too!! 
Don't let any moss grow under yer bucks. 

Thanks Sturgus.  The Dussun V-8i is on it's way...  I should have everything by end of the week

Just let us know when to show up! 

Best Regards,
Bill

[innov8ion]

Thanks again.  I hope this doesn't come off as corny, but I do have to do have to say I'm awed by the sense of community here.  I just unboxed the ACI mains, sub and stands.  Joe of Jam'n Audio took great care in packing and sending the equip.  It looks flawless, nothing is amiss, and he's been a great resource.  Loved doing business with him.

I have just the Sapphire XL's connected to my Onkyo receiver and absolutely hear the potential.  I'm not judging anything yet because I won't have a proper amp until Wednesday night and may not connect the sub until Thurs as that's when the Y-Adapter is coming.  I mean, it sounds great now....but it'll be insanely sweet once i've got the Dussun powering it and the sub connected.  I absolutely know I won't be disappointed because I can discern the quality of these components.  You guys were not wrong!

I'll be more than happy to have a little listening party or whatever at my place.  But, I just moved in a couple months ago...  Not sure that it's quite ready yet.  I need a proper home theater / audio setup designed and implemented.  Wonder if Bryan is up to the task... 

Feelin' the love!
Dave

Hey Dave, 

Again, 'Welcome Aboard'!
Glad to see another GAS member chime in, and extra glad you are getting the Saphire XLs!  I *really* liked 'em at RMAF.
Looking forward to your 'learning curve' with 'em and hearing about it. 
And an amp I've never heard coming too!! 
Don't let any moss grow under yer bucks. 

Thanks Sturgus.  The Dussun V-8i is on it's way...  I should have everything by end of the week

Just let us know when to show up! 

Best Regards,
Bill