OB with NoBaffle

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MJK

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Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #120 on: 3 Nov 2006, 11:41 am »
Quote
I've built a number of these hybrid baffles, and GM once told me that having the
wings splayed open at least 1" for each 6" of depth should prevent resonances,
which leaves us with potential resonance only if this cavity shape is placed near
the wall.  Do you agree that this is a good rule of thumb?

No I don't agree with that rule of thumb, I am not sure what the significance of 1" and 6" brings to the geometry.  I don't think the geometry of the cavity has as much to do with the potential for resonances, it is more a function of the size of the open area and the associated acoustic impedance.  If you place the OB cavity geometry close to a rear wall then you are getting a similar doubling of the area that the horn designers try to achieve to cut down on the required mouth size.  In my opinion, the biggest design challenge that arises from placing the OB near a rear wall is the reflection from the back wave canceling the front wave.  In the limit, if you OB was right against the wall, the reflected rear wave would completely cancel the front wave and produce no sound.

scorpion

Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #121 on: 3 Nov 2006, 05:08 pm »
Martin,

Thank you very much taking the trouble to elaborate on your answer like you did. It is not like solving an alredy solved problem in 30 seconds
(although that problem was unattended for 15 months) but to reason about possible effects with the help of wellfounded knowledge.

I like your outline, discussing kind of worst case situations and draw conclusions from them regarding the real situation. For a layman like me that make convincing argument. I think my question was a very relevant one and from your answer and the following discussion we can learn important insight in baffle design and use. Some careful calculation is anyway needed.

There are still a lot of things we do not know about OBs. One could wish that more research went into this area.
Just the produced sound of our efforts I think would merit that.

Another question: How much do you have to equalize the bass-Alfas in your baffle ?

/Erling


MJK

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Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #122 on: 3 Nov 2006, 05:33 pm »
Hi Erling,

Quote
How much do you have to equalize the bass-Alfas in your baffle?

I am still using a +2 dB low frequency boost to make two Alphas mate with the Lowther and produce a performace that I like a lot.  The last plot on my website page is the calculated response for the sytstem and it extends down to below 30 Hz (-6 dB point) if the simulation is to be believed.  A "pdf" of the final simulation can be viewed if you are interested in any of the details and individual driver responses.

JohninCR

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Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #123 on: 3 Nov 2006, 10:58 pm »
Martin,

Maybe I misunderstood GM, and it was just standing waves that are eliminated by
splaying open the side panel wings.

I looked at the Alpha before and Eminence's IB response graph turned my interest away.
Are there easily explained factors to reconcile your predicted OB response with them to
Eminence's IB response, do they just have the wrong graph posted?  The Alpha's T/S
parameters and efficiency caught my attention, but rolling off below 100hz wouldn't
work as shown here  http://eminence.com/pdf/alpha-15a.pdf .

I look forward to seeing your measured responses.  If they correlate fairly well with the
predicted response, I'll definitely upgrade to the paid version of your software.  I don't
try to do boxes anymore other than tinker with ideas for my HT sub (30hz and down),
but I'm interested in modelling OB's.

MJK

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Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #124 on: 4 Nov 2006, 01:01 am »
John,

Clearly there is something wrong in the plotted response curve.  I measured the T/S parameters and they are close to Eminence's values, those values would not produce that SPL curve.

Rudolf

Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #125 on: 4 Nov 2006, 11:47 pm »
I was busy the last days, so I almost missed how this very inspiring thread evolved. Hopefully I can test the moderators patience nonetheless.  :D

JohninCR,
I very much appreciate accurate wording. With this in mind your thread title is simply BS:
In this world of mortal humans there is no loudspeaker without a stinkin baffle - since at least the loudspeaker is it´s baffle itself (plasma speakers exempted). Even in CR, although I have heard it´s almost paradise on earth. :lol:

I did a simple simulation in EDGE:


The result for a 15" speaker is - very predictable - a dipole peak at 700 Hz and the usual 6 dB rolloff below. If you equalise the 2dB hump around 700 Hz, you should have a nice flat response down to 250 Hz @-3dB. Floor response will even lower that. (I imply that the silver iris doesn´t roll off above 250 Hz on itself) So I would expect a nice and easy x-over @ 200 Hz. I don´t see nothing spectacular in that. The "comb filtering" you´re talking about is neglectible with a mere 1 dB peak-to-peak. I wouldn´t even bother about any edge "profiling".
Please remember that Olsen did his experiments with small drivers on a large baffle. This results in much more comb filtering than a large speaker on a small baffle. Point-source theory doesn´t apply any longer with such small baffles. You can easily comprehend that with some EDGE simulations.

Apart from that stinkin baffle I see one interesting point: A circular baffle radiates the same way in every direction - which a rectangular (even floor mounted) baffle does not. I could well imagine a stereo image with a wider sweet spot resulting from a round baffle.

Regarding "accurate wording" again:
"Baffle step" and "edge diffraction" certainly follow the same physics -  the pressure loss at the baffle edge. But we should assign "baffle step" to the real step with a base niveau and a "stepped up" niveau - which is only happening in conventional speakers. Dipoles are sufficiently explained by the dipole roll off, dipole peak and the subsequent "edge diffraction" ripple.

Last point I would like to comment: Forget about that "air velocity" thing. Air velocity is what I am hearing when riding my bicycle downhill with 30 km/h. Music reproduction is about pressure changes and cavity resonances (from room modes to pressure build-ups between cone and magnet structure). So there is no reason at all to look at speakers from an aerodynamical point of view.

Apart from my nitpicking carping those baffleless speakers should prove some potential. So hold on to that project.

Rudolf

nodiak

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Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #126 on: 5 Nov 2006, 02:30 am »
I like the idea of a 15" round baffle to aid a 200 hz roll off, I may consider that for the 8" driver I'm using to help it blend to a bass driver. I'm currently using an Augie with an FR8 Hemp bicone above, and will over the next weeks or months work on biamping with electronic xo, and eq, as well as finalizing a baffle arrangement. For now the baffle is 18" x 32".
This combo has just been put together today and just to get a close level has a 6.5mH coil in series with the Augie and a 4 ohm resistor in series with the FR8. This is not an attempt at a good xo design, just to get the Augie to roll off and the FR8's level down. The sound is relatively full, but I have no idea what a response curve would look like. (I haven't had a system playing for 4 months so I'm just enjoying some music for now, the neurosis will kick in later I'm sure  :icon_lol:) Only at very loud levels the FR8 starts too high of excursions, but I want to protect that soon. I have a small analyzer so will check the fr with it in a week or so. The analyzer (Audio Control D-11) is minimal and should be checked for it's response/abilities, but it's something to try.
My room is narrow (11.5 feet) and gives alot of bass lift, otherwise there would probably be a wider difference in output between the drivers. I find in my situation the room - reflections and frequency exaggerations - need more work than anything else. 
I'll be paying attention to these threads, and can give some comments on my systems sound in my room. But for the most part I find I'm a scavenger of what's available to learn from others, which is much appreciated.
Oh, the aerodynamic analogy was left behind.
Don
« Last Edit: 8 Nov 2006, 11:49 pm by nodiak »

nodiak

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Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #127 on: 5 Nov 2006, 03:06 am »
Also as for the bass drivers baffle in my room - I can extend it to one side 20" so it will couple to the wall for lower response. Then the FR8/main baffles can be made seperate for their own cut off point (as in the 15" circle Rudolf mentioned).

JohninCR

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Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #128 on: 5 Nov 2006, 03:18 am »
Thanks Rudolph,

NSB was supposed to be a joke taken from a reference to the 49 cent wonder Pioneer 4" that
became called the NSB's for No Stinkin Badges, although I'm unsure of that origin.  Later someone
used NSB to mean No Stinkin Boxes, and I took it a step further.

I believe I understand the pressure release from half space containment to full space, or baffle step.
It's ok if you want to only talk in terms of pressure, but with OB's there's a greater pressure differential
resulting in more happening at the edges.  I'm not thinking there is some audible wind turbulence, but
Olsen's work demonstrates clearly that the shape of the makes a difference.  The Edge gives no
consideration to this.  All it shows are the dipole ripples which are based solely on the phase relationship
of the front and rear waves combined.  The Edge better reflects the ripples than the peaks and sharp
nulls shown by Linkwitz.  I believe SL's graph is more indicative of folded shapes with the worst case
being a pipe with drivers on each end wired as a dipole.  I'm used to ear tuned OB's, so 2db is something
I can live with (maybe not at the wrong frequencies though, since they appear to be harmonic ripples).

If nothing else, a change in the edge geometry will result in a change in how the pressure is released at
the edge.  That's what Olsen's work tells me.  A smooth and more gradual change in pressure has to be
better than an abrupt one.

Before I brought this topic up, it was generally accepted that we should avoid circular baffles like the plague.
Now you're telling me it's not that big a deal, or that it matters for small drivers but not big ones.  Come on,
the only difference is wavelength.

For now, I'm sticking to the idea that the edge geometry makes a difference, and more of a difference for OB's. 
My real concern is that at these lower frequencies need a transition distance greater than the 3-4" that I'm
willing to commit to trying.

As support for my way of thinking, here are a top and front view of my small baffles for my Fostex FE108Esigma's.
First I built just a 3 piece squared edge baffle.  I wasn't satisfied with the somewhat boxy sound, which I
attributed to the squared backside, so I filled those inside corners for a smooth expansion of the well rounded
driver cutout.  That cured the boxy sound, which I believe to have been reflections off of the inside of the
wings disrupting the rear wave.  Still not satisfied with the sound, I edges of the front corners as seen in the
top view, which really sharpened the focus of the audio image.  I made the changes to one baffle at a time so
I had a direct comparison of before and after changes I made.  I've tried roundovers on boxed speakers before,
and was unsure of much, if any benefit.  With these little OB's the difference was more than just subtle.  Please
explain how those results fit into your interpretation of theory, and why trying something similar but round from
the front is a waste of effort with the NoBaffle idea.  Are you sure I'm missing the boat, or is there maybe more
to edge diffraction than just the baffle step effects due to the pressure release?


JohninCR

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Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #129 on: 5 Nov 2006, 03:35 am »
Oh, the aerodynamic analogy was left behind.

Don,

I'm not sure about round if given a choice and you can avoid the dipole ripples.

I'm also now even more intrigued about basket mods.  Think about the pressure
inside a stamped basket frame vs the release as it clears the frame and vice versa
going back in.  My thought is to round the both the inside and outside to make
the pressure change less abrupt.  If nothing else it will damp the frame and could
look interesting if done well.

scorpion

Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #130 on: 5 Nov 2006, 10:29 am »
Good points, Rudolf. My earlier question to John came as a result of a similar EDGE-simulation.

John's statement about EDGE is not true. It is a diffraction simulator and very versatile in setup and configuration of simulations for about any baffle type or shape and to do so with good precision. Like MJK pointed out earlier baffle shape could be more investigated and the EDGE is a very useful tool to employ for that.

If this speaker type should be acronymed to anything it is of course NB regardless if it stinks or not.

But as I see it this approach could only be successfully applied to large speaker chassis. Crossing over from what and to what
on no baffles ? Or not crossing over at all ? The smaller the chassis the higher up is the useful frequency range with no baffle.

I think it would be very hard to get audiophile quality fullrange sound from this approach.  :scratch:

/Erling
« Last Edit: 5 Nov 2006, 04:13 pm by scorpion »

Rudolf

Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #131 on: 5 Nov 2006, 03:19 pm »
John,
it goes without question that edge diffraction is more pronounced for dipoles than for monopoles. EDGE is showing that too (and below 400 Hz it nicely shows the baffle step of the monopole!):


What you see is a 3 cm dia. driver on a rectangular baffle 100x30cm, driver at 85 cm height in the middle of the baffle. Monopole is green, dipole is red.
What I am more interested in is a changing relation between baffle width and driver dia. Look at the next diagram, which shows the same baffle but now with a 15 cm dia. driver (red) compared to the 3 cm driver (green):


Ferekidis has shown that a baffle, which does not exceed 2.2 times the effective driver diameter, works best with regard to minimised edge diffraction. The complete derivation is only available in German (http://www.randteam.de/papers_lf/daga_2001-lf.pdf).

For your circular baffle with 15" diameter I have simulated the silver iris and drivers with 20 cm and 10 cm dia.:


Even if your SI cone breaks up at 1.500 Hz radiating with only 200 mm diameter you need not worry about more than 2 dB ripple. And an active area of 100 mm dia should be fine above 3 kHz.

What you see in Olsen´s measurements is more like the 10 cm driver on the 15" baffle. Please don´t forget that every theory explained by Linkwitz and almost all experiments I know of Olsen have been done with (relative) point sources. Your NSB is a coaxial driver, but nothing less than a point source.

I don´t want to discourage you from chamfering any baffle edges you want -  I just try to sensitise you to the fact that you will not need it.

Rudolf
www.dipolplus.de

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #132 on: 5 Nov 2006, 03:54 pm »
I just try to sensitise you to the fact that you will not need it.

Aesthetic. Makes it look pretty.  :lol:

JohninCR

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Re: NSB = No Stinkin Baffles
« Reply #133 on: 5 Nov 2006, 04:17 pm »
Thanks Rudolph, it's sinking in now.  The 15" driver is radiating from a wider
range of surface, so there's more inherent source to edge differences built
in than a smaller driver mounted on the same size circular baffle.  ie Larger
drivers mean the diffraction effects are averaged together, making the
overall magnitude of the ripples lower.  Also, putting a B200 on a squared edge
15" dia circular baffle is probably a bad idea.

Where I get crosswise with this technical approach is that I believe that even
if you get the response graph nice and flat by averaging the effects with a range
of source to edge differences, there there still can be audible gains by actually
curing the diffraction effects.  Olsen shows us how to cure it.  This gets back to
my 108 baffles.  I started with good driver to edge differences with the trapezoid
shape.  The change only in edge geometry paid audible dividends.  I'd rather cure
the illness than take medicine to treat the symptoms.

BTW, I didn't want to call the speaker's NSB's.  The joke, I guess, turned out to
be just an inside joke that didn't work.  I'm just trying to make OB's smaller with
an interesting look that still sound great.

scorpion

Re: OB with NoBaffle
« Reply #134 on: 5 Nov 2006, 05:36 pm »
JohninCr,

Exactly what is this: 'a squared edge 15" dia circular baffle' ?  :D

/Erling




scorpion

Re: OB with NoBaffle
« Reply #135 on: 5 Nov 2006, 05:47 pm »
JohninCr,

You would get satisfactory responses from 15" units that match. Of course you can design 15" woofers to take you down into the 30'ties with no baffle for sufficient SPLs. The problem as I see it would be to extract sufficiently good quality from the upward going speakers with that large membranes for
midrange performance.

/Erling
« Last Edit: 5 Nov 2006, 06:00 pm by scorpion »

Rudolf

Re: OB with NoBaffle
« Reply #136 on: 5 Nov 2006, 06:21 pm »
John,
glad my argument came through. Looking back I should better have started comparing a 15" driver to an array of much smaller drivers. I believe that would have been better comprehendable in the first place.

If people find it easy to put the SI on any baffle size and shape and get good results, this might stem from the fact that those baffles automatically would not be much larger than the driver - at least not a full order of magnitude. One could easily argument that putting a small driver on a big baffle is a more demanding task than leaving a big driver without a baffle. (That B200 centered on a 15" plain circular baffle IS a bad idea :D)

You are certainly right that EDGE is not all and everything. I surely would not want to be regarded as the simulation maniac of this forum. :green:
Chamfering those edges will somewhat "disguise" them from EDGE and contribute effects EDGE can not simulate. So it could well pay audible dividend (and visible too) to round off the baffle edge generously. "Generously" meaning that the chamfer radius needs to be about a quarter wavelength of the frequencies to take effect. A 5" radius for instance would work from ~700 Hz up AFAIK.

And thank you for that NSB explanation. I like those cross references for insiders - as long as I belong to the insiders. :lol:

Rudolf

scorpion

Re: OB with NoBaffle
« Reply #137 on: 5 Nov 2006, 06:23 pm »
JohninCr,

I do not think we should take ourselves to seriously and prestigous. Perhaps we also are to respectful in some other cases.
With regard to the no baffle I performed some simulations and arrived at about the same conclusions as
Rudolf and initially thought it not so bad and interesting. Later when trying to analyze it a bit deeper,
I arrived at my stated standpoint. It would not be easy for the midrange. But not impossible.

Rudolf's link gives very interesting insight with regard to our baffle design. As is also the discussion about MJK's Lowther baffle.

Forward !

/Erling

Rudolf

Re: OB with NoBaffle
« Reply #138 on: 5 Nov 2006, 06:37 pm »
JohninCr,
Exactly what is this: 'a squared edge 15" dia circular baffle' ?  :D
/Erling

Erling,
I already got it: squared in contrast to rounded or chamfered. :wink:

For sure it will be fun to see you in Gelsenkirchen. It seems that we are thinking along the same lines.

Rudolf

JohninCR

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Re: OB with NoBaffle
« Reply #139 on: 5 Nov 2006, 08:05 pm »
It looks like I need to try the B200 in a similar arrangement to see
if "diffraction rings" can cure diffraction effects or not, since I may
not be able to hear a benefit with the 15's.  If I can pull off a 12"
or less diameter rings without sonic detriment.  I'm running active
with full flexibility, so I can deal with the earlier roll-off.  I just need
to retain the B200's smooth response.