[Brett Buck]

I recently purchased some AVA equipment.  I have spent exactly NO time looking a the "HiFi Audio Salon" world since about 1984, because I was and am still quite happy with my little Jensens's Stereo Shop SCA-50 Control amp. It still works just dandy, and it will get a chance to go another 22 years.

I have had access to, and listened to, a WHOLE LOT of different bits of audio equipment, over that time, but not from a consumer standpoint. Some of it sounded a little better in some regards, but nothing was WAY better and certainly not better in terms of cost/quality. I just needed a little more poop and I can now afford it. No muss, no fuss, one phone call, and it's taken care of.

  But when I did a little HiFi research on the web, I was amazed at the massive amount of utter and complete bilge that is now being spewed about audio equipment. It was bad enough in 1984 (some of the descriptions of  trips to electronics shows from "Audio Basics" of that era were comedy classics), but the current state of the industry is infinitely worse. Magic caps are still around, but now we have magic wires, magic damper "stones", speaker wire stands, ad infinitum. Endless subjective jibbering about all the magic characteristics of various (insanely expensive) bits of equipment. Single-ended triodes with 10% distortion at a watt and a half!?  Magic *AC power cables*, for Christ's sake!?  One has to wonder if the collective IQ of the average audio buying public has dropped into single digits.

    The "audio salon" stores are even worse than before, too. Those that still exist, of course.  I can't tolerate more than sporadic contact with these idiots. I am an aerospace engineer, and I pretty well understand how electronics work, and have designed and built more than a few electronic devices over the years.  One guy at a salon in <<city redacted to protect the guilty>>  told me that even though I have a lot of experience with electrical engineering, understanding audio components requires understanding "electronics engineering". It didn't make me mad, but I think he got a little miffed when I laughed at him. One wonders which high school he dropped out of before he became a cable salesman.

    In short, everything I saw in 1984, and everything Frank wrote commentary, rants and/or diatribes about in that era, is sadly still with us, amplified by the ability to spew it instantly across the world at several MBPS!  Aside from few small areas of sanity (like this forum), the larger world of "Audio" seems to be closer to a religious cult than engineering. Or, to be precise, a large number of conflicting and mutually-exclusive religious cults.

    My mind is boggled that a sensible guy like Frank Van Alstine (or his long-time customers who actually understand what he is trying to do, for that matter) can actually tolerate being in constant contact with the larger world of "bizarro" world HiFi without his head exploding. Heck, just looking at some of the other "circles" here for a few minutes gave me a massive headache!

    I am relieved to see that some people (most regular posters here, for example) are still capable of rational thought and have a sense of proportion, but, holy cr*p, most of the rest of the hi-end audio world seems to have slipped off into the deep end!


   Brett

[LightFire]

    ...I am relieved to see that some people (most regular posters here, for example) are still capable of rational thought and have a sense of proportion, but, holy cr*p, most of the rest of the hi-end audio world seems to have slipped off into the deep end!


   Brett

I agree with you 100% but, unfortunately, we (rational people) still minority here in this forum!
There are two "no non sense" places that I usually visit in the net that may be of interest to you (in case you don't know them yet):

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/

http://www.audioholics.com/


Now if you really want to be shocked just search the Audio Circles about "wire/cable burn in". And  just make sure you are sitting down when reading the posts.

[Wayner]

Bingo Brett!

Many in the hi-end audio world have become obsessive/compulsive, spending thousands of dollars for micro amounts of improvement. The greatest you mentioned being speaker cable stands.

[BrianM]

Bingo Brett!

Many in the hi-end audio world have become obsessive/compulsive, spending thousands of dollars for micro amounts of improvement. The greatest you mentioned being speaker cable stands.

Speaker cable stands??

No no no.

You need to be suspending your speaker cables from the CEILING with any of several quality brands of Teflon coated surgical wire + cable harnesses. Mind you different speaker cable suspension wires will sound radically different, so spend some time playing around with what works best in your room. N.B. DON'T NEGLECT THE CEILING LUGS AND CABLE HOISTING RIGS. These will have their own sound properties, too. For some cables, a height of 6 inches from the floor works best, depending on the sensitivity of the upstream components. You may need to go as high as a foot and a half. And of course, room temperature and humidity play into this as well.

[Peter Gunn]

This is not only sadly true it has effected the feelings of many who I think would not behave this way did all this not exist. A number of my audio friends are constantly worried if they are getting the "Nth" degree of this, that or some other damn thing, others roll tubes forever, change cables forever......

WHO GIVES A RATS ASS?

Why do I never see this sort of angiush over music? That's what all this smoke chasing is supposed to be about after all anyway isn't it, enjoying music? I never hear friends tell me about some new album they got or how they enjoyed listening to "whatever" so much they played it twice etc... No, It's usually stories about how the tube they put in last night caused some other new problem....  I just don't know how we talk them down when they're constantly being fed the notion that enough is never enough.

What's next, hanging speakers from the ceiling and worrying over toggle bolts and ceiling lug properties? Ummm...... never mind 

[Brett Buck]

Speaker cable stands??

No no no.

You need to be suspending your speaker cables from the CEILING with any of several quality brands of Teflon coated surgical wire + cable harnesses. Mind you different speaker cable suspension wires will sound radically different, so spend some time playing around with what works best in your room. N.B. DON'T NEGLECT THE CEILING LUGS AND CABLE HOISTING RIGS. These will have their own sound properties, too. For some cables, a height of 6 inches from the floor works best, depending on the sensitivity of the upstream components. You may need to go as high as a foot and a half. And of course, room temperature and humidity play into this as well.

  Thanks, that's very helpful, but what I really need to know is were to find some good-sounding mercury to put in my mercury-filled interconnect cables. The old mercury has gotten depolarized, and now the sound is no longer engaging, exhibits no space, and has gotten gritty. I know that there is one mercury mine in Upper Volta that produces consistently better sound, but I hear that the good mercury is getting rare. Remember, if you want liquid sound you need a liquid conductor!

   Before anyone suggests it, I will note that I have already realigned my pyramidal amplifier enclosure to magnetic North to compensate for the drift of the poles.


     Brett

[Peter Gunn]

Of course that only works if you wrap your head in foil first, not aluminum but copper foil, tellurium if you can get it. Don't forget to grease your head with siliclear first too, and if you can't get that I understand bag balm (what they use on cow udders) is an excellent substitute.

Of course for all that to work best you'll then need to insert a silver coated teflon rod in each ear to which about 20 shuttlecocks have been glued with the open ends facing your stereo (real feather shuttlecocks are much preffered for this than plastic ones). And don't forget a grounding wire!

This should get you where you need to be. Good luck!    

[Brett Buck]

Of course for all that to work best you'll then need to insert a silver coated teflon rod in each ear

   Ear?


    Brett

[Peter Gunn]

Yeah, ear. The device picks up all the sound vibrations and transmits them directly to the ear canal where they are in contact with the ear drum and malleus, where upon the sound is whisked off to the cerebral cortex and enjoyed in full by the medulla oblongata. I saw it on the net, it has to be true.

[EclecticSeeker]

Brett –
Thank you for a great post!  It’s just the kind of thought- and discussion-provoking thread that make this hobby (obsession) fun.  The responses so far are really enjoyable, too!

In terms of what I interpret as the core of your message, well… I absolutely have to agree that there’s a lot of hoo-ha out there.  I also shake my head in wonderment at some of the claims I read.  However, I also try to keep an open mind if I have the occasion to audition various products.  I have to assert that I CAN hear the difference in at least some different types of “high-end” cables and interconnects.  To me, the whole thing boils down to two questions:

1.  Can I hear the difference/improvement?
2.  Is it worth to me whatever money is being charged?

To me, a product has to present a definite, hearable sonic benefit.  If that’s not the case, I don’t bother to think about it.  Just my two cents…

Thanks again.

[Peter Gunn]

The problem isn't do plugs and cables matter, because they actually do and quite a bit. The problem is, is the $5,000 one better. In most cases it is not.

A friend just came up to hear my gear and let me hear his preamp. After a half hour we took my power cable out (signal cable) and put one of his he brought with him in. (cardas) The difference was immediate and very noticeable. At first we got deceived and thought the Cardas was better, but after about 5 minutes you could tell it was manipulating the signal whereas the Signal Cable power cord did not. We both found the Signal Cable cord much better in the end and it's also much cheaper. I've found the same thing to be true with Signal Cable interconnects.

Other voodoo that is true is using cable risers, especially if the cable touches a rug anywhere. (most noticable in the winter as static is more of a problem) Doing this won't make an instant change unless you demagnetize the cables when rising them (which can be done with a demagnitizer or a slightly damp cloth run over them) but in any case you'll likely notice a subtle but positive change, if not right away in a few days.

Herbies Audio lab is also a place of black audio magic. His turntable mat is fantastic, his iso cups and balls are THE word in component isolation, his tube dampers not only work they work wonders and using his grungebuster dots under my maggie C/O boxes opened a window I didn't even know was closed. The guy should get a Knobel prize, especially given that his products are very cheaply priced.

What it amounts to is taking care of obvious things. However cost has relatively little to do with that. It is also true the higher the resolution your system can attain, the more these things will effect it. Like anything in due course and when money allows they can be improved, but obsessing over this stuff is a road that cannot lead to any good. Like most things in life simpler is often better.

[Spirit]

[quote author=Peter Gunn link=topic=32080.msg284670#msg284670 date=1159900548
What it amounts to is taking care of obvious things. However cost has relatively little to do with that. It is also true the higher the resolution your system can attain, the more these things will effect it. Like anything in due course and when money allows they can be improved, but obsessing over this stuff is a road that cannot lead to any good. Like most things in life simpler is often better.
[/quote]
Peter:
I have grappled with upgrade issues for a long time.
So let me ask you this:
Give me your opinion on the following componets and whether a sonic difference can be
achieved - Please feel free to name brands if you so desire -
1:  Power condtioners vs plugging straight into the wall
2:  Interconnects
3:  Power cords
It seems to me that there are 2 camps when it comes to these accessories -
those who hear no differnece at all and those who feel that conditioners and cables make a differnece.
Your thoughts?

[Peter Gunn]

I think you picked the worst person possible to ask this, but I'll tell you what I know.

In the first place, sonic differences will result changing any of the things you listed. But as I said, this has a lot to do with the resolution ability of the gear to begin with. If the gear was only mid fi to begin with, how far can it go? If it's sensitive, expensive, prissy high end stuff you will experience far wilder changes. This is especially true with tube gear.

I use no power conditioning at all. My rig runs from a new 20 amp fuse that goes to the outlet behind the stereo and that's it. Up until recently I didn't have any problem I thought, but I've just tweaked my stand design to such a point that I noticed it was not always possible to reach this new magical realm of resolution every night. I think dirt in the line effects it from day to day and time to time. I posted a querry on AA and got the usual replies, so I did some looking on my own and have decided I am going to try a new product by PS audio. It's called the Soloist http://www.psaudio.com/products/soloist_overview.asp and it power conditions, surge protects and cleans the line, right in the wall! No cables to buy, no box to find a place for etc... plus I like the balun design it uses which cleans the signal without robbing detail like the heavy winding filters do.

As far as interconnects and cords, I did a stint as an audio salesman in the 80's (it's my dirty secret, it lasted 1 month) and when it was dead (which means usually) I would play with gear in the "main" room and swap connectors. The general conclusion I reached is price means nothing, and if anything synergy is the real key. With 10 systems cable A might beat cable B 9 times, but on that 10th one B is superior.  So in reality neither one is "better", you have to find the right man for the job. The other truth I discovered is the more complex (and pricey) a cable is, the more it is likely to be like cable B above.

Over time I have become a fancier of plain pure copper. In that light I use stuff from Signal Cable http://www.signalcable.com exclusively. I love his analog 2 cables with eichmann plugs, his magic power cord is great and just bested a cardas cord in an A/B I had at home recently. For the price his stuff can't be beat and used together it has a synergy that works even better. Sure, better stuff exists (in that it would work better for me in my application) but the time, effort and cost to find and buy it is not worth the marginal gain I would get. This gets me 95% of the way there at a great price. Works for me.

As far as people not hearing a difference, it is quite possible changes do nothing for them but there has to be a reason why. Their gear is probably the most likely culprit, and either can't meet higher demands or the components are not compatible in some unknown way which is restricting resolution.

In any case my advice is worry about this last. Get the gear you like the sound of, and then if you feel the need to improve these areas do so. The old KISS (keep it simple stupid) method.

[Brett Buck]

The crux of my post was that people were pursuing a bunch of things that either don't make a difference, or make the sound less accurate (even if you like the distortion better), for reasons/justifcations that don't make sense.

  In an example of the latter, if a high-zoot interconnect cable "sounds" significantly different from a cheap RCA interconnect you get for 99¢ at Fry's (assuming it's not broken or damaged in some way), you can almost certainly assume that the "difference" is a "distortion". Maybe you like the distortion, maybe it sounds "warmer", but it sure as heck isn't passing the signal with less error than the cheapie - because the cheapie is as damn near electrically neutral as is possible. OK, I like the end fittings on, say Monster Cable interconnects because they are mechanically more reilable, but as far as passing electrical signals it had better be a wash.

    What I suspect is commonly happening is that people are randomly hooking together various reactive components, and then evaluating the results subjectively, until they find something they think sounds good to them. Swell, it sounds great to them. But what it really happening is they are making their own music, not reproducing it. They might be better served by learning to play the piano, but who am I to judge what "instrument" someone decides to play. Just don't call it hi-fi.

    If someone wants to spend any arbitrary amount of money on something that makes them like the sound better, far be in for me to stand in the way. It's their money, they can do what the want with it. Buy all the $13000 1250watt monoblock tube amps you want, if nothing else you will keep the house warm in the winter.  It's no skin off my nose, and I am a firm believer in capitalism.

   What does strain credulity is incredible machinations that go into convincing each other that because they like it more,  it must therefore be more accurately reproducing the input signals, and is therefore objectively "better".

    Brett

 

[Spirit]

OK Brett so let me ask you a question.
If a person had to start from scratch in assembling a truly "HiFi"
system what would you recommend as purchase options?
I don't mean which brand names, I mean what variables
should be looked at when shopping for equipment.

[avahifi]

OK, enough discussion of voodoo here already.  Take it elsewhere.  I don't care if you think that the magic flame from the cigarette lighter came from the fire gods or from the holy rocks.

Facts.

   We build audio electronics that many people appreciate as providing world class sound.

   I design the equipment using good engineering and careful listening in double blind test conditions.

   I would be an idiot to not recommend the best possible cables, etc. I knew of to make our
   equipment perform at its best, if there was such a thing.

   I would offer the long term acceptance of our equipment as evidence I am not an idiot or deaf.

Observations:

I absolutely reject all audiophlake notions of good sounding parts, good sounding wires, and all similar unsupported claims.  There is no such thing.

I am astonished that the hobbiests here have absolutely no curiosity to want to understand what is actually causing the differences in sound that they hear.  They would rather talk about their pet wires on and on rather than simply make a few measurements.  Duhhh!

Do wires and cables make a sonic difference you can hear?  Absolutely they do.  However the differences are not caused by any magical musical quality of the cables, they are caused because excess capacitive loads and other measureable issues represented by the cables modifies the linearity of the driving source, and the modifications are always BAD, no matter how much you like them.  You can see the results on the test bench with a square wave generator and scope in an instant. The more load sensitive the equipment is, the more various cables will change the sound, an obvious red flag of bad design.

This is one reason we design equipment that is as load insensitive as possible, and fault tolerant.  We want our equipment to be easy resistive loads for whatever is driving it, and to drive random difficult loads without stress or internal difficulties.

All the discussions of the magical virtues of wonderparts and wandering woven witchcraft wire is not a substitute for good electrical engineering.  Engineering is HARD, bullshit comes easy.

Right now a well intentioned and well known "modifier" is working on one of the older versions of the Fet Valve 350 amplifier.  I will help him out to make sure nothing is done that would be destabilized or damaging, although I very much disapprove of taking the speaker fuses out of circuit which of course risks damage to both the amplifier and/or speakers in case of any "whoops".

I am sure he is going to be certain of making useful musical improvements, although he has ignored my advise to just do one channel first, and double blind AB it with the stock channel.  However, I am not going to tell him that there is one resistor value in the amplifier he could change that will improve the transient performance and musicality obviously, and I bet he will not discover what that engineering change should be.  That requires engineering analysis, not blind faith. We shall see.

That last poster here asked what characteristics he should be looking for.  I suggest he should think about equipment that is fault tolerant, stable, quiet, does not radiate RFI switching noise, reasonable low maintenance (if you own a vacuum tube power amp you really need to learn to be a tube mechanic or it will be expensive), has resistive input impedances, and can drive loads really well.  Anything meeting all these requirements is likely to be pretty good sounding subjectively too.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[TheChairGuy]

Beeeee-autiful post, Frank

Tho I barely know diddly about the engineering work you do, and have some differences of opinion on a few matters of mostly style (as any two people can); I just think you are friggin' terrific in setting many of us on the straight and narrow (extraordinarily well written for an engineer, I may add)

Sorry about the public accolades if you are of such that doesn't like them much - but I just wanted to put in print how I feel. Not that it matters much - you have 40 years of 'evidence' to speak for you.

Hope to meet you one day when I'm in Minny 

[Spirit]

I absolutely reject all audiophlake notions of good sounding parts, good sounding wires, and all similar unsupported claims.  There is no such thing.

I am astonished that the hobbiests here have absolutely no curiosity to want to understand what is actually causing the differences in sound that they hear.  They would rather talk about their pet wires on and on rather than simply make a few measurements.  Duhhh!

Frank:
I REALLY do want to understand!!
I value your opinions with great respect.  Please help me understand.
Lately my mind has been swirling around the importance to sonic quality of AC power.
What I mean by that is the following:
1:  How important is it to have a dedicated AC line devoted solely to an audio system.
2:  Your feelings on AC Power Conditioners in terms of the claims of cleaning AC noise
     before the noise enters the system.
3:  Power Cords (Oh boy, now I've opened a can of dirty worms).  It has become a given
    by most audiophiles that the $5.00 Black cord that arrives with every piece of new gear
    is awful and must be replaced immediately.  Your feeling?
    I still have equipment from the 70's and 80's with power cords that are hard wired into
    the inside chassis.  The cords are not mot much thicker then lamp cord. 
I assume that you have tested some AC issues through the years in your double blind testing.
Please respond when convenient.

[avahifi]

Actually the last time we purchased AC power cord they cost $1.80 each not $5.00 (up from $1.15 due to the increasing cost of copper. 

The power cord is in series with and part of the hundreds of feet of tiny crummy copper wire wound on the primary side of your power transformer.  Buying an expensive after market power cord to make the last six feet better is absurd.  it is as if your house was on fire, the hydrant was 1000 feet away, and you strung out 980 feet of half inch garden hose.  Then the fire department showed up, and started to connect the last twenty feet with their 4 inch canvas hose and you had a fit, and sent them back to the the 10 inch canvas hose for the last 20 feet.  The audiophlake concept of good sounding AC power cords is as useful as Ming Shue dots and all the other wonderjunk.  All you will end up with is an additional set of unnecessary pressure contacts for the AC at your amplifier chassis.  Makes real sense.

AC Power Conditioners?  Go to your local computer store and get a good surge and RFI protected outlet box of adequate capacity.  If possible keep the power amp on an isolated AC line to eliminate the possibility of any signal feedback developed between the amplifier AC and the small signal devices.  This does not cost very much.  Voodoo audiophlake grade conditioners do. Get real.

Good engineering builds good audio components, good voodoo does not.

Good engineering costs a whole lot less too.

Frank Van Alstine

[budyog]

Here is my 2 cents on the dedicated circuit issue. For me going to a 20 amp dedicated AC line eliminated clicks and pops from other equipment in my home like the washer, dryer, dishwasher , AC or refrigerator. Apparently they were wired into the same circuit. From that point on I have always had a dedicated line for my system
Also I live in the heart of the city on a busy street, 100 year old homes, with old wiring in my home and the air in front of my home. I noticed such a huge improvement in my systems sound when I added 1, RGPS 400 (Richard Gray Power Supply) that I even added a 2ND one. I am sure that there are a lot of current peaks and dips coming from around me. I will not be without them in my location. I do not care how they work, they just do in my situation. An analogy in my situation is like there are times when my internet service is slower then others. My cable company says it is when kids come home from school that it has the most usage going on. That is when it is the slowest! Go figure!