[James Romeyn]

The room was made symmetrical by the addition of two walls.  A bass-ceiling soffit was built, w/ bass absorption at least equal to $8k worth of ASC soffits.  Other modifications are incomplete because the house is for sale.  Plans for those mods are included w/ the sale.

Front system view, bass-ceiling soffit at L/R corners


Bass-ceiling sofft, rear/side walls


Bass-ceiling sofft, rear/side walls


VMPS RM30C SWmax* OXO, BH5, CDW, TRT (*Stan Warren wire)


VMPS RM30C SWmax* OXO, BH5, CDW, TRT (*Stan Warren wire)

[lonewolfny42]

Nice photo's Jim....

[Berndt]

When can I come over?

[lonewolfny42]

WolfNY
I hate you...

Hey Jim....That's Great....Thanks....
You have a PM....

(simple...once you know how...try it.)

[John Casler]

Jim,

That looks absolutley fantastic!

Is that a black blanket in front of the TV?

What PreAmp are you using?

Since you like the Stan Warren gear, I have the new Revelation III (a demo buffer stage) that is flat out stunning with the RM30's.

  now I seem to remember you had, or have the Pathos?

[lonewolfny42]

now I seem to remember you had, or have the Pathos?

[James Romeyn]

Jim,

That looks absolutley fantastic!

Is that a black blanket in front of the TV?

What PreAmp are you using?

Since you like the Stan Warren gear, I have the new Revelation III (a demo buffer stage) that is flat out stunning with the RM30's.

  now I seem to remember you had, or have the Pathos?

John
Yes that's a black blanket on the TV. 

The Pathos Classic One Mk3 has no preamp outputs for the bass amp (ATI 1802), so I built this attenuator box per Jack Elliano's recommendation, dual 10k audio-taper pots (w/ several tweeks)
It's really quite amazing how well such a simple device works when properly implemented.   

It's a completely succesful remedy to bi/tri/quad amp even when employing an integrated amp sans preamp outputs.  In all likelihood it works better than an integrated's preouts: It provides a level control; also sometimes an integrated's preouts are not well-engineered to drive average to difficult amplifier inputs.  In Jack's circuit, a speaker level output, w/ a source impedance of about .1 Ohm, drives a 10k-Ohm pot.  Obviously the load is completely invisible to the source.  This is often not the case when a preout (1k source) drives an amplifier load (maybe 20k).  You don't need a calculator to see the former source/load ratio is far better than the later.  (Also, when bi/tri/quad amping, all amplifier input impedances are parallelled, making for a potentially terrible source/load mismatch.  In this case it would almost certainly be better to use an integrated for the preamp source-plus the integrated's power amp section can of course also be used to power one range of the speakers.) 

Good pots, good wire, & Caig Pro-Gold must be used in the construction.  Readers can PM me for other contruction tips.

[BrunoB]

I am one of the few lucky ones who has the chance to listen to Jim's system.
What I found interesting an unusual in Jim's setup is the wide angle of the speakers (Jim, could you provide the measurements?). This configuration provides a very wide soundstage which is very nice for the reproduction of large orchestral works.  Despite the wide angle, the center image fill was still very good. I sat at the sweet spot but also on the side , and indeed the imaging was still well present (unlike my system).
In my opinion, there is a small drawback to the RM30: the tweeter is above ear level when stitting on the couch. When I stood up in order to have my ears at the tweeter level, I could hear more treble. I suspect that this  results in a slight rolloff in the upper octave and beyond.
I suggested to move the huge TV one or two feet away from the wall in order to improve imaging. The main result was a strong increase in bass punch. Jim had the impression that a sub was added to his system! I have to admit that I did not expect such a bass improvement.

Jim's system is one of the two best stereos I have heard up to now.

I would like to thank Jim and his lovely wife for having me over: this was the last day of my trip in California and it was very enjoyable.

Bruno

[Brian Cheney]

OK, so what was the other stereo system you liked as much as Jim's RM30's?

Note: the speakers in a large TV like Jim's act as antiphase passive radiators at bass frequencies, which is why you heard the LF improvement when the TV was moved.

[tbrooke]

My plan, when my new 626r's arrive, is to use my old 626's as stands for the news ones for stereo and as rear channel for movies. I have 2 original subs. If I place the 626s in front of the subs will I have the same efffect (ie diminished base from the woofers in the 626s acting as antiphase radiators). Before I read this post I was wondering about the effect the 2 6 1/2 woofers in each 626 would have but I figured it would be negligable or possibly complimentary. (the reason for doing this is that I have a built in wall unit where my present front and center 626s are placed and the screen when I put it up is in front of them - with my new speakers I thought I could just place them in front of the wall unit on top of the old 626s when I'm not watching movies and put the new speakers in the wall unit for movies and use the old ones as rears in a 7.1 channel system)

any thoughts - I thought it was a brilliant plan

[Brian Cheney]

Plan is fine.  You can also temporarily short out the unusued 626 with shorted dual bananas, or place a solid baffle in front of the unusued 626 woofers.

626 CDWG's arrive tomorrow, your 626R's should ship Thursday.

[CornellAlum]

OK, so what was the other stereo system you liked as much as Jim's RM30's?

Note: the speakers in a large TV like Jim's act as antiphase passive radiators at bass frequencies, which is why you heard the LF improvement when the TV was moved.

I am a bit confused.  Are you saying the speakers that are built into a TV have an effect on the sound even when they are not on?  Secondly, how big of a TV are we talking about for it to have this interaction?

Thanks B

[tbrooke]

Lost me

I understand the baffle but not shorting them unless somehow that would keep the woofer from moving

Tom

[Zheeeem]

Speaking of baffles, a really good stand can be made out of stone.  If you have a stonecutter in your area, you can get rock custom cut to the footprint of your speaker and to the height you want.

When I had a monitor/sub setup, I had 23" high stands for the monitors cut.  Plus a base that the sub would rest upon, plus another slab for the top (each about 3 inches thick).  Liked it all so much I made an equipment rack as well.  The added mass really helped the sub performance.  And although stone will carry vibration, the mass is so great that they are relatively inert to vibrations from speakers.  (I also judiciously used sheets of fairly dense polyurethane foam as dampers.)  It is cheap and good looking.  It is also heavy as hell.  A 10x14x23 stone is almost too heavy to lift - something that didn't occur to me when I ordered them.  Duh.

On TV speakers...  My thinking is that anything in a listening room that can vibrate will vibrate.  Speakers are problematic because they are specifically designed to vibrate.  This is one of the things to consider when going into a hifi store chockablock with speakers to listen to a few pairs...  in addition to listening to an acoustic environment totally screwed up by having boxes in the wrong places, basically all the speakers are singing along with the one you're listening to.  Big planars are especially egregious in this regard. 

(FWIW, I prefer TVs that are just monitors.  I haven't used a tuner for over a decade, and I would always prefer to listen through a decent hifi than the grot electronics and cheezy speaker that comes with 99.9% of TVs.  But that's a different matter.)

[warnerwh]

You need to remember a speaker has a resonance. It will vibrate and absorb some frequencies instead of playing them. You may have heard of people wiring two speakers out of phase and facing them to each other at a close distance so they can break them in and not have to listen to them. This is because one cancels the sound of the other out.

If you short the speakers the driver will be forced to stay in the magnetic field of the voice coil with little movement. Otherwise you have a very good anti phase passive radiator which most people really don't want. If you do short them be sure to unshort them before you use them or you may get smoke signals from your amp

[dubravko]

In my opinion, there is a small drawback to the RM30: the tweeter is above ear level when stitting on the couch. When I stood up in order to have my ears at the tweeter level, I could hear more treble.

I used to feel the same way as you about the height of that tweeter. But somehow, that impression faded with speakers positioned optimally. I listen 30s mostly from some 3.2 meters distance and my ears are at a height of 105 cm. This is ideal for RM2, RM40 and 626R positioned on 45 cm stands.  Therefore I sit with ears 10 cm below 30's tweeter but still hear enough treble with it's pot at 9.30. It may seem that I like rolled off sound but that's closest to sound I hear live from a first 1/3 of the concert hall.

[MaxCast]

Hi Jim, nice set up!  I have a question about your sofit bass traps.  Could you give a description of them?
Is the underside open or just the vertical side?
What is in them?
What size framing did you use?
What covering did you use?
Size?

Thanks

[BrunoB]

OK, so what was the other stereo system you liked as much as Jim's RM30's?

A system based on Apogee Divas.

Note: the speakers in a large TV like Jim's act as antiphase passive radiators at bass frequencies, which is why you heard the LF improvement when the TV was moved.

Why must the TV be moved away from the wall for the antiphase passive radiator to be effective? How big must the TV speakers  be to affect strongly the bass?


I have two alternative explanations:
 
-the low frequency sound waves enter the space between the huge TV and the wall, bounce back and forth between the two surfaces and loose energy, thus acting as a bass trap.
-the  low frequency sound waves reflect on the surface of the TV and arrive sooner and stronger to the listening position - the effect would be similar as to bring the  speakers closer to the wall.

Bruno

[tbrooke]

Hmmm I think I get the shorting.

I may need to find a simple explanation of how a speaker works to really get it. Thinking further an unused speaker is basically a bass trap. And if it is resonating at the right frequency (are radiating and resonating the same thing?) it may be helping me . Or I could wire them in parallel if my amp could handle it (I believe they are both 6 ohms or create some sort of cross over to help blend them, This may be something fun to play with. (Also when I put these in the rear my Lexicon processor has a bass enhancement circuit that I believe does something about the phase)

Tom

[John Casler]

In my opinion, there is a small drawback to the RM30: the tweeter is above ear level when stitting on the couch. When I stood up in order to have my ears at the tweeter level, I could hear more treble.

I used to feel the same way as you about the height of that tweeter. But somehow, that impression faded with speakers positioned optimally. I listen 30s mostly from some 3.2 meters distance and my ears are at a height of 105 cm. This is ideal for RM2, RM40 and 626R positioned on 45 cm stands.  Therefore I sit with ears 10 cm below 30's tweeter but still hear enough treble with it's pot at 9.30. It may seem that I like rolled off sound but that's closest to sound I hear live from a first 1/3 of the concert hall.

All this is interesting.

I have posted my "RM30 TALL BOY" tweak and have raised the RM30s till the tweeter is around 53" high.  I sit 6 feet from the speaker and ear height around 10-12" below the tweeter.

I am at least in the center of the middle neopanel or lower.

I have several cuts that display HF sound and the most delicate of those frequencies is in total balance and crystal clear with that config.

I love detail and cleanliness in the sound, and this height seems to give it without too much.

But strangely enough I have had a friend who experimented with raising and lowering himself and found 6" higher gave him the best balance.  When I raised myself, the sound was entirely to bright and brittle and way too "trebly" (overbalanced to the treble)

So it appears that although we can all sit and listen to the same speaker, we can hear different things.

I know that when I had my 626R's I was closer to the tweeter's height and found it "only slightly" bright.

It may have something to do with the "HF collection efficiency" of the external ear.  It may also have to do with head orientation.

I find looking at the floor, with the head slightly down, "increases" treble, and looking up with head slightly back reduces it.

But, that may be based on my external ears (pinna) shape and collection abilties.