[John Casler]

And talk about speakers in your TV

I remember the first time I met Brian "face to face".

He came down from El Sobrante to help me "tune" my RM40s.

They sat on either side of a 55" Toshiba RPTV.

After some placement adjustments, he sat and listened, hand on his chin and eyes closed.

A little putty here and a little putty there.  Then listen some more.

Then a head shake.  "No they'll have to be removed"

I thought he meant the RM40s.

Then he explained further that I needed to remove the speakers from the bottom of the TV.

Well off came the cover, then the screws, then ripping the wiring.  I then stuffed some old rags tightly into the holes left, and replaced the cover.

Sure enough, the bass was cleaner in the upper midbass.

Still have those speakers and the Toshiba has retired to the bedroom but as a monitor only since it has no speakers.

[Brian Cheney]

You'll have to do a search, but the CHENEY WECOLATOR is the solution to all your listening height problems!!

[Eugene2]

I am not as knowledgeable as most on this site, but I will throw my two cents in.  I just received my RM30M super max's with TRT caps and every other option Brian could throw in.  Set them up and tuned the oxo.  I have room lens in my room but needed help with the bass as I have the powered larger sub.  I went to Sam Ash music and discovered some devices by  www.auralex.com which may be a nice cost effective solution for some.  They have LENRD bass traps which are wedges that fit into room corners for $39.00 and subwoofer/speaker/amplifier stands which are tuned to certain resonant frequencies for $54.00.  I purchased 3 Traps and 3 platforms (1 for the larger sub and 1 for each mono bloc amp).
They certainly made a huge difference in my sound room.  Bass is much cleaner and distinct and imaging seems to have greatly improved.  In fact I am, going back to purchase some additional panels for first reflection absorption. 
The platforms may raise your 30c's enough to help with your treble issues.
Anyway the stuff is cost effective enough for experimentation (see their website).  I am loving my VMPS gear more and more with each listen.

[woodsyi]

You'll have to do a search, but the CHENEY WECOLATOR is the solution to all your listening height problems!!

How about just a cushion? 

[James Romeyn]

OK, so what was the other stereo system you liked as much as Jim's RM30's?

Note: the speakers in a large TV like Jim's act as antiphase passive radiators at bass frequencies, which is why you heard the LF improvement when the TV was moved.

I am a bit confused.  Are you saying the speakers that are built into a TV have an effect on the sound even when they are not on?  Secondly, how big of a TV are we talking about for it to have this interaction?

Thanks B

Brian & Linn's Ivor Teifenbraun (B help w/ spelling please) potty-trained me many decades ago about other unused & unshorted speakers in the room.  The speakers in my TV are effectively non-existent: I have about a lb of fiberglass stuffed in front of each speaker in the grills, tightly pressing against the diaphragm. 

Try this experiment: Listen intently to a favorite tune w/ no other speaker in the room.  Simply bring one other un-shorted 2-way (or more-way) speaker system & site it anywhere in the room not directly in the primary listening arc.  You won't believe the degradation in quality.

The TV is about 250 lbs, 50" x 50" x about 23".  IMO moving the TV out further into the room about 12" or so from the front wall (where the TV is now) moved the screen from behind the speaker driver plane to in front of the plane, minimizing direct reflections.  Also, though I doubt this is the case, possibly minimizing the path length from the wall behind the listeners to the TV scren helped the sound.  (The screen face is heavily damped w/ a thick blanket.) 

The bass probably got better because of a shift in one of the room's troubling bass modes.   Ideal would be to stack some rigid glass behind the TV but hey people my house is for sale remember?.     

[James Romeyn]

Hi Jim, nice set up!  I have a question about your sofit bass traps.  Could you give a description of them?
Is the underside open or just the vertical side?
What is in them?
What size framing did you use?
What covering did you use?
Size?

Thanks

I signed a licensing contract only to build the soffit, & am unfortunately specifically barred from disclosing specifics about the soffit & the plans.  The designer maintains intellectual property rights.  He sells room plans for profit.  The soffit & the CDW are the two best audio items in this room. 

[Housteau]

Try this experiment: Listen intently to a favorite tune w/ no other speaker in the room.  Simply bring one other un-shorted 2-way (or more-way) speaker system & site it anywhere in the room not directly in the primary listening arc.  You won't believe the degradation in quality.

What about rear speakers for surround sound applications, or abient synthesis systems such as the old and simple Haffler circuit, that are not being used while listening to stereo?

[PLMONROE]

I have been experimenting with using the Haffler circut to add ambiance to my.  RM-40s with a pair of 626s behind me but closer than the main speakers It definitely seems to broaden the sound stage however I am concerned about phase issues and time delay effects. Thoughts anyone?

[James Romeyn]

I have been experimenting with using the Haffler circut to add ambiance to my.  RM-40s with a pair of 626s behind me but closer than the main speakers It definitely seems to broaden the sound stage however I am concerned about phase issues and time delay effects. Thoughts anyone?

In the above case, if the listener hears an improvement, that seems like only a good thing. 

If all the speakers in the room are always utilized as part of some type (discrete or multi-plexed) multi-channel system, that seems like there is nothing to debate.  OTOH, let's say there's a multi-channel system that is sometimes monitored in stereo only.  I have wondered if unused speakers may degrade sound quality while listening to a multi-channel system in stereo.  My guess is yes. 

But...if the output of the amplifier channels that are unused is low enough to effectively short the unused speaker inputs, maybe the negative effect is minimal. 

I went from enjoyable stereo, to better performance in a multi-channel system, to the best quality I've had by far in a stereo-only system, better than any multi-channel I've heard.  I've not sampled stuff like multi-channel DSD hard drive rigs like at least one AC member, who swears it is the closest you can get to live.  My experiences seem to mimic this member's.  That system was probably in the multi-hundred thousand US dollar range.  The "software" & software technology is not offered to the public, so it's a reference not replicatable at anyone's home.  Too bad. 

I'd employ every potential current VMPS technology & acoustic upgrades before spending money on multi-channel anything.  IMO 50 lesser speakers are not capable of supplying the resolution & spatial performance of the CDW w/ dedicated XO mods, OXO, TRT caps & wiring upgrades.  IMO, the primary market-driven purpose of multi-channel, & the reason audiophiles would prefer to add/swap hardware is because it is so much simpler than sitting down & getting very serious about one's room's acoustic upgrades.  It's also because reliable acoustic advice is extremely rare & it's still a newish science.  It's kind of like loose weight now solutions.  The ads say it's effortless, but anyone w/ common sense knows that's a lie. 

But I absolutely respect the current position of every member & every member's system.  I'd probably enjoy most member's systems, & am virtually positive every member has better sound than what is normally avaialble in stores.  I certainly agree this march toward sonic nirvana is a journey.  Enjoying the journey no matter what point you are at is part of the fun of the hobby.

     

[John Casler]

I have been experimenting with using the Haffler circut to add ambiance to my.  RM-40s with a pair of 626s behind me but closer than the main speakers It definitely seems to broaden the sound stage however I am concerned about phase issues and time delay effects. Thoughts anyone?

What Jim says above is very true and reducing room interaction (unless it is cancellation of "bad" sound) is always good.

That said, I think the greatest damage is caused by passive return that is "out of phase" in the same general plane of the speaker.  This means that the "non-powered" passive waves will arrive the listener "out of phase" shortly after the direct waves.

That is, a TV or other woofer that is not operating (not powered) and in the same general plane, will be affected by the bass from the active speakers, and then release an anti-phase, or out of phase signal back, that travels to the listener.

This will muddy, fuzzy, or blur bass definition.

Shorting the offending speaker, or if used as stands, turning it around to face the wall can help reduce this.  Also placing a solid, non-pliable and non-reasonant material in front of the driver will also help, as will lightly compressing a soft material against the cone to keep it from moving will too.

Speakers out of the plane of the mains will also place "rebound" radiation back into the room, but their phase and power are not as threatening, since this will be happening via other surfaces in the room and it is difficult to know their phasing relative to the direct arriving signals.

I would say, if possible face them toward the wall, but a simple listening experiment might tell you if they seem to degrade the sound or not.

[PLMONROE]

Hummm! My diliema stems from the fact that to get the kind of sound I will accept I have had to completely separate my music sound system from my home theater sound system. So I have two separate didicated systems in the same room. I sit at one end of the room facing  my RM-40s when listening to music. About three feet behind me are two 626's which are the left and right speakers for home theater, two sub woofers and a L/C/R. The left and right surrounds are two more 626's behind the RM-40s. When I want to watch home theater, I move my chair to the other end of the room (between the RM-40s), face it the other way and turn on the other system. So how much do all these speakers which are turned off when I am listening to music degrade the sound and how does one resolve this (short of having TWO dedicated rooms)? 

[James Romeyn]

I can only pass along my personal experience.  I'd set up the best 2 channel system possible, probably w/ an integrated having an output stage ideal for either the bass or ribbon array, & another stereo amp for the range not covered by the integrated.  The integrated would be the volume control for the 2-ch system.  I'd spend money on room treatments & do everything possible to upgrade the speakers to current specs & get the best caps I could afford.  Only after that was done would I concern myself w/ multi-channel upgrades.

For multi-ch, integrate the best HT reciever or pre-pro, utilizing the same 2-ch system for the HT main front L-R channels.  I'd probably only add the 2 rear surround channels & omit the center.  I would do whatever was necessary to insure the rear speakers did not minimize 2-ch sound, including installing a gold-contact switch between the rear channel amp & speakers.  One switch position would be normal HT play, the other position would present an 8-Ohm 10W dummy resistor to the amp & short the speaker inputs for 2-ch use. 

My current resolution is high enough w/ only 2 channels that I rarely if every miss even the surrounds.  The center image is clear for videos even w/o a center speaker.  Sometimes it is extraordinary to hear the most faint & subtle audio effects while watching video.  As stated earlier, I recorded a segment of Speed's Barret-Jackson auction.  During a commercial fade there was crowd conversation; a woman was heard talking in a large crowd in a huge environment (actually a huge tent).  She was clearly heard to my extreme right, about 10-15' beyond the right wall in my room.  It was quite distinct & quite strange.  IMO only & I totally respect any other view, compared to the highest 2-ch resolution, surround seems gimmicky & does more to lead away from musical interest & closer to video watching.  The better the 2-ch the less you are interested in TV & the more interesting is the music.

That said, I do plan to later add two 626R-CDW-OXO-Auricaps as rear surrounds after I move into my new room.  Following my own advice as above (for a change), a HT receiver will serve for HT decoding, control, & rear surround amplification.  Lastly, one pair of inputs on the 2-ch system's integrated amp will serve double-duty in the HT system.

The CDW is so outstanding, especially combined w/ OXO & TRT's, that I'd probably prefer new current-spec 626R-dehorned spiral-CDW-OXO-TRT ($3200 msrp) vs. any pre-CDW RM40s.  The smaller the room the more accurate is the above prediction.  Besides, you could always add subs later to the 626R.  Future xo upgrades would require shipping only 2 wittle oxo boxes.  You could even get dual or triple direct speaker inputs for future active xo upgrades.    Again, only my 2c & YMMV.         

[Housteau]

I don't currently have a home theater, or video mixed in with my 2 channel system.  If I were to set up a nice video system it would be kept separate and in a different room.  However, I would do that for different reasons than those already mentioned.  To me the video experience is the video.  That is the focus and that is what I would want to see.  The sound is important, but only to bring realism and impact to the video.  I would want the speakers not to be seen and be an invisible part of that room.  Where with strictly audio, the speakers and room treatments add to my experience, but thats just me.  I have never wanted to mix the two, or have seen it as being practical for me.  One reason I can think of is, I would want my video system for average TV viewing as well as movies, and I can't see running tube gear to watching the news etc. 

I am not opposed to multichannel music reproduction (I have rear channels for occasional synthesis), but I do see that as something different than that of home theater.  A center channel for home theater makes sense to me due to the nature of home theater and how viewers would be seated.  Several would be off to the side, as in a normal living room setting.  As such a center channel would still center the vocals to the screen and I believe that is the main idea behind using a center channel. 

When I listen to music I don't like having anything large between the speakers other than the back wall appropriately treated, and possibly some artwork to focus on.  As alluded to by RibbonSpeakers.net, the center fill and image created are what two channel is all about and adding a center channel to that is almost blasphemy.  My dedicated two channel room has one chair in it.  Its not that I am selfish, it is due to the simple fact of the sweet spot.  Sure one can be off center and things will sound OK, but that is a compromise and dedicated rooms are not about compromise.

A friend of mine was commenting on another acquaintance of ours who continuously switches out gear, cables etc. in order to get the proper sound he is looking for, but never achieves.  He said something to the nature of "he is so busy chasing the mice out of his room that he can't see the elephant standing there.  With that I have to agree that with many the filling of rooms with more speakers is a band-aid of sorts to the fact that the main front two/room relationship was never in order to begin with.

However, with that said I realize it may not be possible to achieve that ideal two channel relationship in a nondedicated listening space.  Some rooms simply may not work, especially those deemed for family use.  In these cases multichannel audio, or video may very well be the best solution toward higher end enjoyment. 

[PLMONROE]

Sigh! My wife allmost divorced me after 45 years when I took the second largest of our 12 rooms as a dedicated one for my sound and home theater. Taking another to have two dedicated rooms will be a bit of a challenge.

[Housteau]

Taking another to have two dedicated rooms will be a bit of a challenge.

Agreed .  That is why I made my choice for audio.  I feel I can eventually work our small livingroom into a more advanced video area in the future if I choose.  Right now it is just pleasant room for our standard 36" Sony TV.

[zybar]

Sigh! My wife allmost divorced me after 45 years when I took the second largest of our 12 rooms as a dedicated one for my sound and home theater. Taking another to have two dedicated rooms will be a bit of a challenge.

This reinforces what a lucky guy I am!

My wife let me turn the formal livingroom and formal dining room into my dedicated two channel space AND I have a big space mapped out in the basement for the new HT as well.

 

George

[John Casler]

Hummm! My diliema stems from the fact that to get the kind of sound I will accept I have had to completely separate my music sound system from my home theater sound system. So I have two separate didicated systems in the same room. I sit at one end of the room facing  my RM-40s when listening to music. About three feet behind me are two 626's which are the left and right speakers for home theater, two sub woofers and a L/C/R. The left and right surrounds are two more 626's behind the RM-40s. When I want to watch home theater, I move my chair to the other end of the room (between the RM-40s), face it the other way and turn on the other system. So how much do all these speakers which are turned off when I am listening to music degrade the sound and how does one resolve this (short of having TWO dedicated rooms)? 

Hi Paul,

I have both a 2 channel and HT in the same room, but the emphasis is on 2 channel.

These are "separate systems, and only share the 4 LARGER subs via the NHT Crossover.

The room is 20 x 30 and the 2 channel is set up with the speakers on the "long" wall,and rather nearfeild.

The HT is a Front Projection system (120") and is at one end of the room with about a 12 foot viewing distance.

Both are very satisfying, but the theater has limited seating, (max 4)

It is a tight fit, but the results are very nice and all the furniture, room treatments, equipment, and my listening chamber (for 2 channel) do a great job of breaking up and softening most room problems.

[ctviggen]

OK, so what was the other stereo system you liked as much as Jim's RM30's?

Note: the speakers in a large TV like Jim's act as antiphase passive radiators at bass frequencies, which is why you heard the LF improvement when the TV was moved.

I didn't know that about the antiphase passive radiators.  Interesting.

[James Romeyn]

I apologize if I mentioned this earlier...fiberglass is stuffed tight between the TV's speakers & its associated grill cloth.  The grill frame is massive, it attaches snugly, it's well over an inch thick, & it spans the full TV width.  I safely assume the TV speakers are not affecting performance (although I could remove them).  My bet is the bass improved by a trap effect resulting from the approximately 15" space that appeared when the TV was moved out toward the room center.  Image/stage performance may have improved because the flat screen was moved from behind the speaker plane to just IFO it. 

If I wasn't moving I'd certainly fill the entire space behind the tube w/ rigid fiberglass sheets in cloth sock covers to protect the enviornment.  The glass should certainly audibly improve the bass trap's positive effects. 

[Daygloworange]

Hey John,

I believe I read similar comments from you elsewhere and have to say I believe your thoughts to be very true about people's ears "collecting" frequencies differently. I can think of a millions times when that was the case. We all have noses too right? But people don't always pick up smells at the same intensities, and some people like smells that other's don't.

I totally think this is valid. Some people have large ears, ears that stick out from their heads, some people have ears close to their heads. Put both hands cupped behind you ears while listening and play with the angle towards your eardrum, it makes a big difference in the amount of HF you hear.

Cheers