The Disease is Spreading

Dan Banquer · « **on:** 23 May 2003, 12:24 pm »

For those of you who think that hyper compression and clipping is only limited to rap music or J. Lo releases please check out this link.
http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C

doug s. · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 May 2003, 01:38 pm »

that article was written almost 9 months ago, & no signs of things getting better. the problem has been around for a long time. wirtually impossible to find any commercial music or radio that doesn't compress the hell outta the signal.

i remember when the santana supernatural cd came out - rave reviews for the music, universal condemnation of the recording. i awoided the cd, even tho a big santana fan. when i saw it on winyl, i jumped at it, figuring the engineers would go easier on the compression - anyone spending $40 on a winyl album would likely not be listening to it in the car, on a boombox or cheap rack system. well, what a disappointment & waste of money. the winyl wersion sounds like shit. it *is* acceptable, tho, w/the help of my trusty ol' dbx 3bx dynamic range expander, inserted in the tape lop, for yust such occasions...

doug s.

nathanm · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 May 2003, 02:44 pm »

This is something that bugs me greatly. Dynamic recordings seem to have more of a draw than undynamic ones, even if I am not 100% into the musical style. They are just more sonically stimulating. Yes, they are quieter overall, but when you "turn up the wick" (to use a phrase I saw on TNT) you get some realism happening! The whole motivation behind this "maximum slam, peg the meters" shit is built on a false premise anyway, which is the reason it is so wrong. If there were no volume controls on stereos yeah, they would have a point. But since there are the whole logic goes out the window.

But we could sit around and bitch all day about how albums are recorded, the question is what can we really do about it? A petition to the labels? The recording schools? Does a stuffy group of audiophiles have ANY pull at all about this?

One way would be to simply be a real jerk, go stomping back to the record store and return the CD saying "This disc is overly distorted, I want my money back". If oh, say a few million people did that we'd affect their bottom line and then something might get done. If it doesn't make them lose money nothing will ever get done about it.

Carlman · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 May 2003, 02:57 pm »

I think a quick look at current car audio may explain the marketing decisions of late. The car audio biz is a very high profit area and is very popular amongst people who listen to current pop. I don't know if markets are spilling over from one to another or if a demographic is being targeted or what... but, something bad has happened over the past 10 years. Cheap audio, high SPL, etc. Walk down the aisles at Best Buy... it's dismal.

The local hi-fi shops have some nice stuff but, the only people that keep that industry alive are dentists and doctors... How many people here have paid full boat retail for a Mark Levinson, Bryston, or Proceed at a dealer? I would dare say a very small percentage. I paid full retail for my speakers but, that was before I found AC.

The market does not belong to audio purists, it's pop lovers without ears. Could this be why CD's are as bad as they are?

-C

JoshK · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 May 2003, 02:59 pm »

Nathan,

You raised the perfect point, what can WE do about it?

I wonder if someone with the means to measure CD's dynamic range could start a website databasing new and/or popular CD releases and their dynamic range. The website can link to a lot of articles like this one that explains and rants about the problems. It could have a message board to let people rant and spread the word. The whole intention of the board would be to raise awareness and get the record exec's to start worrying about this little website.

We could give it a start in the specialty area of this site but ultimately it would need to be a site of its own.

nathanm · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 May 2003, 03:04 pm »

Music listeners have no knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes. They will like properly mastered material just as much as poorly mastered material. (and moreso, I would hope) I have NEVER heard anyone say "This CD is too quiet" they only talk about the music itself. So the people on the other end are pretty much operating with very weak or very misguided notions about what the public wants. it's just like the movie people who spout things like "the public DEMANDS this and that." It's nonsense, it's not based on true public opinion but sales figures. The two are not the same. False premises!

Well, let me clarify that - non-audionerd people DO talk about the sound quality of albums, but it's never about amplitude, it's tonality most of the time. They don't know what compression is, but they do know how they feel about the overall production value.

I think the hellraising site is a great idea.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 May 2003, 05:00 pm »

If you start the website; I sincerely doubt that there will be a shortage of material. From some of the pro guys I talk to we can easily bury with assorted scope shots, papers, articles and you name it. No problem in having a "wall of shame", just tell me how many megabytes I can use.
d.b.

nathanm · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 May 2003, 05:22 pm »

What we also need is a way to get non-technical people aware of this issue in a way that makes sense to them. It won't be good enough if it's just a bunch of audiophiles bitching, cause those guys bitch all the time about sound quality

, we need regular Joes to somehow get as pissed about this as the geeks are. Perhaps non-technical music sites should have links to this hellraiser site, maybe with an e-mail form to spam record execs with our righteous indignation!

markC · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 May 2003, 10:16 pm »

Although we are a small group here, Ya gotta start somewhere. Sign me up! I'm all for telling the front line people of the recording industry just how shitty most of this stuff sounds on decent gear.

CELT · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 May 2003, 10:46 pm »

It's not just the new music that's affected. There are several of the new re-mastered rock recordings where the companies just added more compression and cut the discs louder to the point of the signal being clipped! I have several 1983-1985 era CD's that actually sound better than their 2000-2003 counterparts. Shame on them!

Paul · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 May 2003, 01:30 am »

Quote from: Dan Banquer

If you start the website; I sincerely doubt that there will be a shortage of material. From some of the pro guys I talk to we can easily bury with assorted scope shots, papers, articles and you name it. No problem in having a "wall of shame", just tell me how many megabytes I can use.
d.b.

Dan, all,

I'll set up the website ( no charge ) in a few days. 50MB or so to begin with. I can do a shell for the design, but have no content - I dont know any recording pros ! I dont mind giving a few trusted people a dedicated FTP account, or I can accept ratings / comment / graphs ( I especially liked the graphs ) by email and put them up myself.

Any opinions on the domain name ? 'badcd.com' is available ..

-paul

doug s. · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 May 2003, 01:31 am »

*anyting* that sounds *worse* than cd's mfr'd ~'83-'85 - now *that's* really scary!

doug s.

nathanm · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 May 2003, 03:56 am »

If you folks really want to hear some digital overs I higly recommend Exit 13's "An Electronic Fugue For The Imminent Demise Of Planet Earth" from the album "Ethos Musick" on Relapse Records.

Exit-13

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 May 2003, 10:41 am »

How about "The recording industries wall of shame". Please contact me at my regular e mail address and I will be happy to send some scope shots, and forward your e email address to some of the recording pro's I correspond with.

Paul · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 May 2003, 02:20 pm »

Quote from: Dan Banquer

How about "The recording industries wall of shame". Please contact me at my regular e mail address and I will be happy to send some scope shots, and forward your e email address to some of the recording pro's I correspond with.

http://redVU.com is on air .. well, a basic shell anyway.

Any 'scope outputs, comments, 'worlds worst mastering' opinions please forward to :

submit@redVU.com

And I'll put them up.

If you do ( or dont .. ) wish to be credited for a submission please make it clear.

This site is only for 'the once-in-a-lifetime musical moment was sadly lost due to dumb recording/mastering' rather than 'this album sucks..'.

Rip Rowan - a credit coming your way.

-paul

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #15 on:** 27 May 2003, 12:05 am »

Hi Paul;
I will have some scope shots out to you this week. I also will be contacting others to see if they can send anything.

Paul · « **Reply #16 on:** 27 May 2003, 02:08 am »

Thanks Dan, anything appreciated. I will sort out a layout and see what people think.

If any non-pro's ( music lovers.. ) have a CD they are disappointed in for recording or mastering quality, please let me know too. I may do a 'peoples suspect list' for those with the know-how and equipment to investigate if they have time.

Paul

nathanm · « **Reply #17 on:** 27 May 2003, 02:21 am »

I captured a WAV file from a band called Bathory which in my collection is clearly the worst offender of clipping hash. (which is a shame, since I love their music) But surprisngly, there are no 0Vu samples on the song I analyzed. It doesn't look anything like the "Vapor Trails" samples. So I am assuming the periodic ugly grunge I hear has occured during tracking and not that they peak limited the data in mastering. Hmmm.

In that article you can tell from the graphical representation of the wave that it's been monkeyed with. You get that fat, solid slab shape and not the spikey looking ones from the earlier records.

I analyzed "Hooch" by the Melvins because this disc always made my ART DIO's clip LED come on more than other CDs. Although the stats show no 0Vu samples the sound is rather distorted. But hey, it's the Melvins one of the loudest, sludgiest bands on earth, so what'dja expect? I suspect the brown distortion is occuring during tracking and may in fact be intentional for the music.

I also analyzed the original release of Candlemass "Nightfall" and the recently remastered re-released version. WOW! Definitely some shenanigans going on there! I have submitted this information to the website. I hate to slag on my favorite band, but I really don't think any meaningful improvement has been done here. It just sounds loud and harsh to my ears.

I know how annoying wide windows are and I assume most of ya'll aren't running your monitor at 1800x1440 so I shrunk this one down. Top wave is Bathory which appears to have no limiting tricks. The bottom wave is "Hooch" by the Melvins which is clearly slammed to the ceiling! Sheesh!

duff138 · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 May 2003, 02:46 am »

Red Hot Chili Peppers sounds horrible. The clipping makes it unlistenable, (not just the song quality

). Sounds like everything is going through blown amps.

I've heard the new King Diamond remasters are victims of this too.

nathanm · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 May 2003, 03:57 am »

Doesn't it seem a bit ridiculous to get people to buy a CD a second time if all they're gonna do is crank the level of the disc? It also sucks because there's often been CDs I've always planned on getting, but they've since gone out of print. Then they become available again, but they're hawking them as being "remastered". Now you've got no choice but to get the slammed version!

I think it's safe to point the finger squarely at Pro Tools abuse. I bet ya any money these mastering places are just running these tracks through their peak limiter plugins, normalizing them to 0Vu and sending them on their way. I know it's unfair to blame the technology, but I think that software gives them enough rope to hang themselves (ourselves, the record buyers that is!)

You want us to listen to loud CDs? Put a note on the disc saying "Crank it up!" but don't mess with the dynamics!

It ends up sounding strained and fatiguing, not louder because we adjust the level to what we feel comfortable with.