single driver speakers

chadh · « **on:** 27 Mar 2006, 10:22 pm »

I have never heard a single driver speaker - but I can't stop thinking about the excitement so many people express over their single driver experiences. My system is evolving in a single driver-friendly direction, with gainclone amplification and a plan to buy a 6sn7 tubed pre-amp. But when I think about making the plunge with this mysterious approach to loudspeaker design, I quickly become confounded by the variants and what they all mean. "Horn loaded", "aperiodic", "open baffled", "transmission line", "MSG%$#!!TL"....

Okay, so I overstate the situation a little. By and large, I can work out what the various descriptors mean (and when I can't, there's always google), but the important questions remain unanswered. For example, are the sonic results of these approaches more similar or distinct? Are there reasonably consistent sonic characteristics with a given single driver variety (so that two single driver speakers with transmission lines employing two-and-a-quarter twists in the pike position will generally sound similar)? Or are the sonic characteristics more a product of the particular magic that a speaker designer imparts?

I guess even more fundamentally, without being able to hear for oneself, how does one get any idea of the relative strengths or the distinctive flavours of two speakers (say, The Horns and the Omega Super 3 XRS) when the only damn thing anybody ever says about them is that they both sound amazingly, awesomely good?!?!

Chad

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Mar 2006, 10:40 pm »

There are different approaches and designs of single fullrange drivers that make the sounds into different extremes.

Horn advantages: high sensitivity, but somewhat lack of good definition of extremes, this in the case of an example I have is certainly true. Nevertheless, depending on the tweaking, one can increase the definition of the extremes or at least balance out the mids to make the frequency more benign.

BR fullrange drivers: for me, this type of design, depending of the driver in question might make a decent compromise between cost and sound quality factor. Sensitivity is not sacrificed, but then, the examples of this type of design I had heard were questionable, especially due to the midrange hump of MANY fullrange drivers. I am not commenting upon the brand, lest I be attacked on site.

TL or Mass Loaded Transmission Line: This is my present reference. With the F200s, the sensitivity borders in medium to low, around 89db, but with an op chip amp, all the compromises that I have mentioned above are not to be had. The amount of low end definition and high frequency delivery border in really "fullrange" no pun intended. This has to do with the design of the cabinets as well as the driver that makes it beat. When properly designed, this sort of cabinet, I believe delivers the veritable holy grail of what fullrange single drivers often seem to promise, but often fails to deliver. The best thing to do is to go out there and listen to some examples.

but beware, once you listen to a TL design, such as the one that JLM, GHM, Paul Bui and I have, it will make most, if not all other fullrange designs practically obsolete, especially at the price.

PS: Now, there are super fullrange drivers, such as the Supravox 215 EXC field coil etc...which I have not heard, but until I get to listen to these rare and expensive examples, I declare with absolute conviction that fullrange single driver such as the FTA-2000 will make everything, commercial or not, up to 5K sound like mechanical toys, of course the cabinets are really more like large trunks that scream at you, "I AM HERE, GIVE SOMETHING TO PLAY."

kfr01 · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Mar 2006, 10:48 pm »

Chad:

I'm sure with enough searching you can find the theory behind the various designs. The best place to start your search is probably diyaudio.com. Esoteric designs are usually more popular in the diy world than the commercial world.

To that end, if you're really curious, try some DIY.

Buy a pair of these very versatile and popular drivers:

http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=FR125S
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/css.html

and try out some different designs:

http://www.planet10-hifi.com/boxes.html

You'll learn pretty fast what sound trips your trigger. MDF is pretty cheap. A $20 sheet and you'll be able to build quite a few prototypes.

----
Now for my opinion. I'm not convinced that a single driver design can compete (objectively) with well designed multi-way speakers.

They weren't (subjectively) my cup of tea.

SET Man · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 12:16 am »

Hi,

Chad, I see that you want to know about Single Dirver speakers.

As you already know that there are many type of drivers and many cab designs. I could see why you are confused.

Here are some link that might be interesting to you. I'm sure you already know some of these.

http://www.fullrangedriver.com/

http://www.t-linespeakers.org/index.html

http://yu-ra.tripod.com/tqwta.htm

I think there is more but I can't remember them.

As one of Single Driver user since 2002. Personally I feel that there is somthing special about xoverless Single Driver speaker that no other mulit-way with xover can do... although I think there are a few exceptions

I remember the first time I've heard my first pair of SD speaker... it was at T.H.E 2001 I think... it was life changing exprirence.

But of cause ther are some people who thing that SD speaker can't be any good. Well, that depend on how you look at it... For example. I'm using 1 Fostex 6" 167E with helper/supertweeter per side. So, there is a limit of how much you could get from a pair of 6" drivers. They won't do bass or as loud like a pair of 10" for sure. But at normal listening level it is just magic for me.

Of cause there are more robust SD speaker out there... Bemopti123's F200 for example. Although less sensitivity than my but they are 8" and can do lower bass, and higher SPL than my. If you think that SD speaker can't do bass compare to other multi-way speaker with 8", 10" bass driver than you have to hear these!

Anyway, this could be long... so! When I made/voicing my TQWT I used my Grado SR60 driven by 4wpc EL84 SE amp as referenc. So, if you alreday have a good pair of headphone than you know what SD speaker could sound like... well with space and sound that surround you of cause.

Well, to make it short... if you have very large room and like to listen at concert level than you might want to look elsewhere... (multi horns might do

) ... do your best to find people with SD speaker and give a couple of them a listen and see if you like it. And if your are handy with tool you might want to consider DIY

There plan that you could get for free. So don't take my words for it... listen for yourself you might like it.

Well, that is my system... ain't perfect but this is the system that I'm happy to come home to.

Good luck,
Buddy

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 12:42 am »

What a cool place to listen to music! I admire most stuff in your room, including the Abby-like speakers, monoblocks, speaker wires, stand-up tape recorder, and the huge and heavy PS Audio power conditioner.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 12:56 am »

Quote from: Paul_Bui

What a cool place to listen to music! I admire most stuff in your room, including the Abby-like speakers, monoblocks, speaker wires, stand-up tape recorder, and the huge and heavy PS Audio power conditioner.

what about the tabbity prutty cat, Paul?

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 01:18 am »

How could I forget that cute animal, perhaps the only living object in the photo? Thanks for the friendly reminder. It must be the pain in my bones and the sudden high blood pressure that blurred my mind.

Scott F. · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 02:43 am »

Hi Chad,

Each of he different single drivers out there tend to have their own sonic attributes. After listening to a number of them, I decided to settle on Lowthers. For me, I found them to have a better top end and do a better job in the midrange. That said, Lowthers don't do bass at all. Well, they do some but not nearly as good as Fostex drivers.

Here in lies the compromise. The Fostex drivers (generally) are very 'box' friendly. You can drop them in a BR enclosure, transmission line or a back loaded horn and they are fairly happy producing bass in all of them. Now, this is just my opinion so don't screw me to the wall on this but the Fostex lines midrange and treble (including extension) isn't near the quality of the Lowther, and in my case the PM2A's.

Granted, the PM2A's are bloody damned expensive but they have a considerably better mid and treble range than the Fostex's that I've listened to (103, 126, 166, 168, 206, 208, 165) in my opinion.

I've listened to the Supravox drivers in a hack loaded horn enclosure. The were extremely nice sounding but again, rolled in the treble (at about 8k or so). They did bass extremely well.

I haven't heard the Visation drivers everybody is talking about, nor have I heard the Jordans. One of these days I'll get to hear some Horn Shoppe horns. Those and I hope to hear the Hemps that Louis is making (Hi Louis, remember me, hint, hint

Heres an article I wrote a couple of years back that you may find of some help.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/lowtherpm2a_e.html

The MLTL's are a very worthy cabinet design even for the Lowther drivers. They are one of the easiest builds out there.

Here is another one I can completely recommend

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=8828999.24280&pid=1895

I heard the BK 16 a few years ago. For $700 I was extremely impressed. The bass was very good and the supertweeter augments the highs quite nicely.

Steve Deckert does a nice sounding hi-e pair of affordable speakers too. The DM944's main driver runs full range (again) with a tweeter to augment the highs. Alex (one of the local guys) brought his pair by and we drove them to very nice listening levels with my 300B's. Though not overly detailed, they were a very nice listen. They also did bass very well for a small enclosure.

Please, please don't take my comments as slamming the Fostex drivers. There is a huge price difference between the Fostex drivers and the PM2As. As well there should be. When you spend that much on a pair of drivers, they should outperform their counterparts. Remember, everything in audio is a compromise and dollars usually (but not always) are the determining factor.

Just in case you are curious, this is what my system looks like with the Lowthers using the Goodmans to fill in the bass duties.

SET Man · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 02:59 am »

Quote from: Paul_Bui

What a cool place to listen to music! I admire most stuff in your room, including the Abby-like speakers, monoblocks, speaker wires, stand-up tape recorder, and the huge and heavy PS Audio power conditioner.

Hi,

Thanks Paul

Most of my stuffs are DIY or moded. Sadly I'm not a carpenter so my speaker cabs are not well finished like those from Cain & Cain.

I like to think of my speaker of having a "Natural Plywood Finish"

Anyway, Paul if you ever coming in NYC you are welcome to listen to my system and of cause meet my pussycat

Take care,
Buddy

Jon L · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 03:15 am »

Quote from: chadh

I have never heard a single driver speaker - but I can't stop thinking about the excitement so many people express over their single driver experiences. My system is evolving in a single driver-friendly direction, with gainclone amplification and a plan to buy a 6sn7 tubed pre-amp. But when I think about making the plunge with this mysterious approach to loudspeaker design, I quickly become confounded by the variants and what they all mean. "Horn loaded", "aperiodic", "open baffled", "transmission line", ...

All the above posts are great information, but nobody an predict that you yourself will love single-driver speakers or not. Single-driver speakers vary very widely in cost, sound, and quality, almost as much as "conventional" speakers. It's perfectly possible that you will buy a single-driver speaker "A" (or B, or C) and absolutely hate it.

You just gotta listen to some, somewhere, somehow..

SET Man · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 03:18 am »

Quote from: Scott F.

Hi Chad,

...I found them to have a better top end and do a better job in the midrange. That said, Lowthers don't do bass at all. Well, they do some but not nearly as good as Fostex drivers.

Here in lies the compromise. The Fostex drivers (generally) are very 'box' friendly. You can drop them in a BR enclosure, transmission line or a back loaded horn and they are fairly happy producing bass in all of them. Now, this is just my opinion so don't screw me to the wall on this but the Fostex lines midrange and treble (including extension) isn't near the quality of the Lowther, and in my case the PM2A's.

Granted, the PM2A's are bloody damned expensive but they have a considerably better mid and treble range than the Fostex's that I've listened to (103, 126, 166, 168, 206, 208, 165) in my opinion. ...

Hi,

Scott, I totally agreed with you on that. I've never heard the Lowther but I've heard the AER.. forgot what model. And yes they are $$$$$ and the mid and high are better than Fostex for sure. But like you said Fostex are more forgiving and do bass better than AER or Lowther.

So, that reason I chose the Fostex ... 6" 167E in my case because... First for the cost, secondly the sound. I could have save money and get myself the Lowther but with the type of music I listen to (Jazz, Pop, Trip-hop/electronica... yes electronic music

) and my listening level I think Fostex is good for me.

Although I have to admit that sometime I'm dreaming of having a pair of Lowther with a good big and long DIY TL sub for bass below

Hey! Scott nice set up there. I see Yamamoto amp there... and are the other amps below? Man! would love to be there when you guys get together. We NY Ravers seem to be more into SS, ICE and Chip amps here... haven't see much SET around here.

Take care,
Buddy

Scott F. · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 03:19 am »

Quote from: Jon L

All the above posts are great information, but nobody an predict that you yourself will love single-driver speakers or not. Single-driver speakers vary very widely in cost, sound, and quality, almost as much as "conventional" speakers. It's perfectly possible that you will buy a single-driver speaker "A" (or B, or C) and absolutely hate it.

You just gotta listen to some, somewhere, somehow..

Can I hear an Amen!

If you live around or ever visit the St Louis area, drop me an email. You (or anybody else reading this) are welcome to come by and give my system a listen.

SET Man · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 03:26 am »

Quote from: Scott F.

Quote from: Jon L
All the above posts are great information, but nobody an predict that you yourself will love single-driver speakers or not. Single-driver speakers vary very widely in cost, sound, and quality, almost as much as "conventional" speakers. It's perfectly possible that you will buy a single-driver speaker "A" (or B, or C) and absolutely hate it.

You just gotta listen to some, somewhere, somehow..

Can I hear an Amen!

If you live around or ever visit the St Louis area, drop m ...

Amen!

Yup, you have to go out and listen for yourself. I've never though I would like Single Driver unitl I've heard them by accident at T.H.E show in 2001.

Take care,
Buddy

Scott F. · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 03:33 am »

Quote from: SET Man

Scott, I totally agreed with you on that. I've never heard the Lowther but I've heard the AER.. forgot what model. And yes they are $$$$$ and the mid and high are better than Fostex for sure. But like you said Fostex are more forgiving and do bass better than AER or Lowther.

So, that reason I chose the Fostex ... 6" 167E in my case because... First for the cost, secondly the sound. I could have save money and get myself the Lowther but with the type of music I listen to (Jazz, Pop, Trip-hop/e ...yes electronic music icon_wink.gif) and my listening level I think Fostex is good for me.

Although I have to admit that sometime I'm dreaming of having a pair of Lowther with a good big and long DIY TL sub for bass below

Hey! Scott nice set up there. I see Yamamoto amp there... and are the other amps below? Man! would love to be there when you guys get together. We NY Ravers seem to be more into SS, ICE and Chip amps here... haven't see much SET around here.

Yep, that a Yammie alright. It's Blackmores. He bought the matching Yammie pre. They are ultra cool. Oh, he uses them with a piar of Abbey's

The amps below are the Wellborne DRD's I built. By far the cleanest SET's I've ever listenend to.

Buddy, if you ever make it down to St Louis, you'll find there are quite a few of us SET guys here. We've got 45's, 2a3's, 300B's, 845's, 50's, 10's and triode strapped EL34's. The speakers run the gammut. From Bozak Concert Grands to Altecs to Klipsch horns to Fostex to Lowthers and everything in between. I'm starting to think St Louis is the center of the Single Ended Universe (right next to Tokyo of course).

SET Man · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 04:03 am »

Quote from: Scott F.

...The amps below are the Wellborne DRD's I built. By far the cleanest SET's I've ever listenend to.

Buddy, if you ever make it down to St Louis, you'll find there are quite a few of us SET guys here. We've got 45's, 2a3's, 300B's, 845's, 50's, 10's and triode strapped EL34's. The speakers run the gammut. From Bozak Concert Grands to Altecs to Klipsch horns to Fostex to Lowthers and everything in between. I'm starting to think St Louis is the center of the Single Ended Universe (right next to Tokyo of course).

Man! you guys make me drool! I wish I could stop by there someday.... wait I think I should move there! Shhhh... don't tell the NY Ravers I said that

Talk about amp... guess what amp I'm using?

Yup, the no longer available Welborne Labs "Apollo" I love them alot... not quiet though but still love them

I would love to get a pair of DRD 300B, but I don't have money burning a hole in my wallet right now.

Anyway, Scott and the rest of the Gateway people...party on with those tubes glowing!

Take care,
Buddy

konut · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 04:33 am »

The common denominator of single driver loudspeakers is a smooth, crossover-less midrange. Relating to the driver itself, each has its own characteristic frequency response which can be influenced by modification (treatment of the cone or basket) and alignment. Alignment would be the type of cabinet, or in the case of open baffle, no cabinet at all. My own take is that a lot of people try to wring full range sound out of a single driver much to the detriment of that oh so delicious midrange that enthralled them in the first place. I prefer to think of the single driver as a wide range mid-range. Supplemented with a well integrated subwoofer and a super/helper tweeter, a realistic reproduction system can be realized. Placing whatever crossovers are necessary below 100hz and above 10khz , where hearing is less sensitive to phase and impulse anomalies, can free the single driver to be more dynamic in its pass band. Strictly speaking though, its a 3 way system that I advocate.

chadh · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 01:56 pm »

Thanks everyone for LOADS of information. I've certainly got lots to think about.

When I read the posts, the DIY idea sounds really appealing. But then, in the cold light of day, I remember my complete lack of skills and the dearth of functioning tools in my garage.

Anyway, I'll try to formulate a plan to hear some of these - somehow. Alas, the drive to St Louis would be a big undertaking, but thanks to Scott for the invitation.

Chad

mcgsxr · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 02:21 pm »

For me, the transition from 2 ways, to wide range drivers, has been based on coherency, midrange, and tonality. At the price point I live in, under 1K for speakers, a simple open baffle has increased the reality of the sound for me.

Alas, all is not perfect, as the Visaton drivers I use do wonderful things in my installation from around 100Hz-20Khz, but it has been a challenge to bring bass to the table - integration woes, with my big ported sub... too slow, and too inefficient to keep up!

Open baffle is the simplest way in - cut a board, cut a hole, mount a driver, hook it up. Done.

FR125's would be the perfect way to find out about the sound, and with their popularity, I am sure you could move a lightly used pair rapidly...

Good luck!

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 03:14 pm »

Chadh, where are you? If you are ever near NYC, you can come to my place for a listen. You could also go to listen to SETMAN's set up.

Buddy, guess what? I got my SET amp back and I paired them the horns you saw. They are awesome with volume control being the EVS Ultimate Attenuators and source being an old, 1997 Sony CDP. They were incredible, but I need to break both the amp and the horn drivers. The set up was incredibly nice.

Paul K

Bill Baker · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 Mar 2006, 04:08 pm »

Quote

...The amps below are the Wellborne DRD's I built. By far the cleanest SET's I've ever listenend to.

Hi Scott, I have to agree with the DRD's. I recently had the chance to spend a couple weeks with some DRD 45's that a customer wanted me to test for him.
I had them driving my Usher D2's at 98dB and WOW. It's hard to believe that 1.5 watts could give you so much in terms of dynamics.

I am just now finishing up a pair of highly modified 2A3 amps for a customer and hope to have them driving the D2's by tomorrow. Should be real nice at more than DOUBLE the power (3.5 watts). I will set this one up as a vinyl rig running a prototype of Dan's SWLP phono pre and a Music Hall MMF-9.

Love those SET's and high-E speakers!!