single driver speakers

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #40 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 09:14 am »

Quote from: Response Audio

Quote
If I give you Lonewolf's credit card number will you finally send me those D2's for review? I'm good for it, I promise, Marbles will even vouch for me

If the card is good, the speakers are yours

I'm telling ya Scott, you have to make a trip out here.

JLM · « **Reply #41 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 11:11 am »

I was wondering when someone from the multi-driver (darkside

) would show up to provide some balance to the discussion.

No speaker is perfect. Many single driver designs are best suited for less demanding musical forms (small group ensembles like jazz, chamber, or folk) and do those very well, especially in smaller rooms. Single driver designs don't have the typical artificial "hi-fi" sound. Like many aspects of this hobby, some folks get way off into a weird corner and learn to reject things like deep bass response or full dynamics, or to accept disjointed or flat soundstage sound.

The classic Klipsch (and other big horn loaded) speakers belong in huge rooms. Note that reproduction of bass frequencies requires lots of energy. Horns that reach 20 Hz must compensate and so are garage sized. Most horn designs push the frequency/spl range too far, resulting in the classic horn distortions. Room gain should always be considered when looking at deep bass output, so often real world frequency response is not flat.

As mentioned above most of the single driver speakers lack bass (partially to fit into the limited capabilities of small tube amps).

Any efficient driver should have good dynamic response. Typical "full" range drivers are output limited (only an issue in very large rooms or for headbangers).

csero · « **Reply #42 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 03:14 pm »

single driver - crossoverless - full range: you can pick any two but not the 3 together.

BTW. a mechanical crossover ( whizzer, BLH, TQWP, mechanical cone decoupling etc.) is still a crossover, just the slopes are badly defined, the overlap is uncontrolled and the group delay can be excessive

woodsyi · « **Reply #43 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 03:45 pm »

I am thinking a big "full range" electrostats come close to being full range. If you place them properly in a big room with acoustic treatment to control the back waves, they can be special. I still prefer my 3 way active/passive multi-amping juggernaut of drivers but I do appreciate the 'stats when I listen to them. I am just too much of a bass hound to give up that first octave but I can see the lure of one driver covering all vocal range.

Carlman · « **Reply #44 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 04:06 pm »

Just my opinion on this... I wanted to like single-driver designs but just couldn't. The closest to perfection for me was Ed Schilling's Horns. I almost bought a pair... but I found a 2-way I liked better... I didn't care for Omega's or Abby's personally but others in the same room at the same time, did... so, it's all up to your tastes.

To me, the single drivers just don't have the impact of a 2 or 3-way design. They are revealing/resolving and all that... but in a different way than 2- or 3-way designs. It always sounded like the mids were much better reproduced than anything else. So, if you listen to simple 1-singer and a guitar music, the single-driver will excel since that's the range they cover well. If you like new age or layered-rock, I'd have a hard time listening to them.

Hope this helps... not trying to stir any parts, just adding my experience.

-C

Scott F. · « **Reply #45 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 04:07 pm »

Quote from: csero

single driver - crossoverless - full range: you can pick any two but not the 3 together.

BTW. a mechanical crossover ( whizzer, BLH, TQWP, mechanical cone decoupling etc.) is still a crossover, just the slopes are badly defined, the overlap is uncontrolled and the group delay can be excessive

Not trying to be a turd but I disagree with what you are saying.

Group delays can be excessive? Compared to what, a sealed enclosure? If so, yes that is true. If you are comparing the group delay to the very typical EBS (extended bass shelf) enclosure, it is not. Modeling EBS enclosures, you clearly see that low tuning frequencies can have longer group delays than a rear loaded horn. And yes, you get into the same (if not sometimes worse) phasing issues on the sound that comes out of a typical ported box.

Mechanical cone decoupling is not a crossover when refering to typical speaker design. No more than cone breakup of a standard 6.5" driver is a crossover. The secondary cone (whizzer) used in many full range drivers is an integral part of the speakers frequency response and has nothing to do with a crossover which uses passive parts (caps, coils, resistors) and can be adjusted to roll off at differing slopes.

chadh · « **Reply #46 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 04:31 pm »

This is one of the things I've been wrestling with in my mind. Selecting a speaker, like anything else, is all about deciding which compromises you're prepared to make. And typically, people characterise single driver speakers as offering a beautiful, coherent midrange at the expense of really deep bass. So the first question I need to ask myself is: am I prepared to make this tradeoff?

Unfortunately, this is where sheer lack of experience really makes things hard. Until you've heard a lot of different systems in a lot of different environments, I don't think you can know how important really deep bass is to you . Well, that's my (in)experience at least.

My current speakers are Von Schweikert VR-1s. They're sitting on a bench a little more than 12" from the back wall (the short wall) in a room that's about 15'x18' and is missing most of the back wall (an opening into the hall to the kitchen, and a big opening through to the living room). These are meant to go down to 40Hz, I think, which seems pretty impressive for little 2-way monitors. When I got them home and hooked them up, the first thing I noticed was how much bass I was getting. My neighbor made the same remark when he came over, and he's using Martin Logans with powered subs in a room that's roughly the same size.
On almost all of my music (mostly small jazz combos, classic rock and electric blues), I'm not left wanting any bass.

But every now and then, I put on some choral music from the Rennaisance (I have this thing for Palestrina), and I keep turning up the volume because I know that the music can just completely envelope the listener. Eventually, the music gets too loud and I realise that it wasn't really volume I was looking for, but it was impact - with this kind of music, I want to feel the weight of the voices hitting me. And to the extent that that is missing, I guess it's a bass problem. I don't think it can be really, really deep bass, as I don't suppose the human voice really produces anything THAT low, but maybe it's the way that the bass and treble integrate. I don't know.

So, when people say that you have to give up the lowest octave to get the magical midrange of the single driver speaker, I shrug and think I don't mind. But maybe, just maybe, I'm really yearning for a system that produces the deepest bass (or produces the whole bass range with real impact), but I just don't know it yet.

Obviously, the only thing to do is to listen. A lot. Hopefully it will be fun - I hate to think that listening to music might become like hard work.

Chad

miklorsmith · « **Reply #47 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 05:01 pm »

I agree with most of what everyone is saying and I'll correlate with my own experience:

Like I said, the BFB's would not satisfy my bass needs by themselves and the treble is not terribly refined, though extension is surprisingly good. Any decent two-way would be better in the treble and bass.

What the experiment did for me was to demonstrate what conventional multi-ways are missing, and that is what led me to Zu. They keep most of what's good about single drivers, such as immediacy, tonality, coherency, and efficiency but add a supertweeter above 12 khz and (with the Def's), subwoofers below.

Now, the Druids are practically a single-driver speaker, with just 12 khz+ handled by the supertweeter. The Definitions have 7 drivers per side and cannot be called a single driver speaker. But, the beauty is that they maintain the beauty of SD's while adding the stuff that detractors say they can't live with.

There are other ways this could be done. There's a Seattle AC'er who's running an Abby/Bailey combo with supertweeters that I'm sure is Magical (need to get over there). It sounds like ScottF has an excellent solution as well. JLM has a perfect solution for him which actually does nearly full-range with truly one driver only. No SET compatibility though.

Truly, there is no free lunch. But, with a little creativity the "SD Ideal" gets closer to the soul of music than anything else I've heard.

Folsom · « **Reply #48 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 06:01 pm »

Well there is some thing to be said to be said about no crossover... When you are making your own stuff it is the best route usually... You will have better sound to some degree this way, with no bi-amping invovled.

Big speaker manufactures put a lot of time, mechanical engenering, and electrical engenering into crossovers. There are few DIY that can really go to the same extent that some of these companies do for their crossovers. To make perfect time alignment etc is not all that easy to do with crossovers, while keeping full integrity of the sound.

Bi-amping really solves a lot of the delima, but not entirely, many drivers still bennifit from certain "crossover" parts, example a notch filter.

Personally I see nothing wrong with adding stereo subwoofers to fullranges that do not go as low as you like.... Also box types etc and power levels will help you level out how much bass you really need. I have a some what not near perfect but affective possible way of increasing some bass on full ranges, at least I discovered some thing amazing while playing with some TB's.

Super tweeter? Hm well sure, but I think I would go with a planar but I am just like that

JLM · « **Reply #49 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 06:13 pm »

csero,

I agree with you on the evil whizzers, but most every speaker has a cabinet of some sort.

And my Bob Brines FTA-2000 can do 30 - 20,000 in room with no whizzer.

konut · « **Reply #50 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 06:14 pm »

Quote from: chadh

This is one of the things I've been wrestling with in my mind. Selecting a speaker, like anything else, is all about deciding which compromises you're prepared to make. And typically, people characterise single driver speakers as offering a beautiful, coherent midrange at the expense of really deep bass. So the first question I need to ask myself is: am I prepared to make this tradeoff?

Unfortunately, this is where sheer lack of experience really makes things hard. Until you've heard a lot of differ ...

The VR-1s was one of the speakers I was considering before I bought my Omega A8s. Aside from the efficiency differences, they pretty much have the same frequency range. BECAUSE of the efficiency differences, the A8s will be more dynamic. This assumes volume levels approaching realistic levels. IMHO both require a subwoofer for a realistic listening window. Why don't you start with adding a sub, and see if that gets you closer to what you're looking for.

yeldarb · « **Reply #51 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 09:02 pm »

I used to think that there was no way that a "single driver" would be acceptable as good hi-fi. Then I bought a little Norh SE9 and had to have something efficient to drive. So, I built the Madisound BK16. I have another system with Dynaudio monitors, tube pre and a nice poweramp. I listen most of the time to the Norh/BK16. There is an livelyness that just isn't there with the other system. Probably has to do with rise time in the speakers. The BK16 doesn't do great bass but an inexpensive sub sure makes that no problem. Of course, you could now argue that it is no longer a single driver system. But it sure is fun and I have been jaded for years.

Folsom · « **Reply #52 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 09:15 pm »

Well the big part of "full range" is usually just no Tweeter invovled, people have as large as 10 inch full range drivers.

Personally I think for best sound it depends on where your speakers die out in the bass range. If they do not hit -3db until say at least 80hz or lower than throwing in one subwoofer is dandy for the most part. It would be nice if the speakers -3db where more at like 60hz just because, personal preference, bass guitars should be VERY defined in sound.

I think if your full ranges die off around 80-150hz to -3db then stereo subwoofers is a good idea. I however do not think cheap ones are wise, there is a little to much going on in these frequencies to just slop it. I think in this case two talented small subwoofers that will get low are wise. I would use them in boxes where the driver faces you and is either on-axis or on similiar alignment to what ever your speakers are at. Until you start creeping below 80hz you are going to want the bass guitar, drums, etc to be in stereo because you WILL hear them in the soundstage, and understand it is important. There is just to much going on in that area to ever use cheap subwoofers, non-stereo, in my opinion.

Box type, well for the one who cares.... If you go the stereo route I would choose a TL, tall standing ported/sealed, or some thing or the sort to be as with your full ranges as possible.

Full range possible? Yes.... Good? Yes..... The best? Well theoretically sure but in reality no. I will not deny the awsome sound you get from them though, you have to love it....

acresm22 · « **Reply #53 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 10:03 pm »

Just curious....those of you out there using a single driver Fostex or Lowther in a horn, TQWP, bass reflex or whatever.....what kind of music do you most often listen to?

I'm not trying to prove a point here, believe me. But as one of the earlier posters mentioned, SD speakers most often lend themselves to smaller scale music reproduction, doing extremely well with vocals, small jazz combos, maybe chamber music, but quite often falling apart when confronted with large orchestral works, multi-layered electronica, metal, etc.

I'd also love to hear from someone who uses a SD speaker system to excellent effect with Nine Inch Nails or the equivalent (not that I listen to that stuff...okay, maybe once in awhile ; - )

Flea-powered SET amps are theoretically supposed to be limited in much the same way...great with small scale, intimate music, not so great with complex stuff that is more demanding at the frequency extremes. But I really think that's a bunch of bull. As Sam Tellig once said, "you haven't experienced home theater until you've experienced SET home theater." Or something like that...

D.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #54 on:** 29 Mar 2006, 10:12 pm »

My BFB's do not rock in any pleasing manner at all.

The Druids rock ultra hard. One of my first tests was Metallica and they played LOUD and clean with a 6-watt Clari-T. My RS SPL meter was over 100 db in a giant room.

Scott F. · « **Reply #55 on:** 30 Mar 2006, 12:00 am »

Quote from: acresm22

Just curious....those of you out there using a single driver Fostex or Lowther in a horn, TQWP, bass reflex or whatever.....what kind of music do you most often listen to?

I'm not trying to prove a point here, believe me. But as one of the earlier posters mentioned, SD speakers most often lend themselves to smaller scale music reproduction, doing extremely well with vocals, small jazz combos, maybe chamber music, but quite often falling apart when confronted with large orchestral works, multi-layered electronica, metal, etc.

I'd also love to hear from someone who uses a SD speaker system to excellent effect with Nine Inch Nails or the equivalent (not that I listen to that stuff...okay, maybe once in awhile ; - )

Flea-powered SET amps are theoretically supposed to be limited in much the same way...great with small scale, intimate music, not so great with complex stuff that is more demanding at the frequency extremes. But I really think that's a bunch of bull. As Sam Tellig once said, "you haven't experienced home theater until you've experienced SET home theater." Or something like that...

If you take a look at the first page if this thread, you sort of get a glimpse at my setup. You can see tucked away in the corners are my 15" hi-e subs. This is my way around a few of the limitationss of the single driver. The Lowhter PM2A's are one of the few drivers that do treble extremely well. They don't spit, they aren't harsh and they damned sure don't shout (that is a complete phallacy propogated by the internet). If they did shout or were harsh, I wouldn't listen to them.

These drivers start to roll off between 12 and 15k. At 15k is where the supertweeter I use rolls in. The crossover point on the simplest 1st order XO (a single cap) on my speakers is set at about 23k. Giving me a -6db point of 15k.

The Lowthers are pretty much useless under 100hz. When you drive them full range (no sub) they sound hollow and thin. Completely unbelievable. Thats where the vintage 15's come in (actively). They are solid to below 30hz. They are super 'fast' being high-e and having a lightweight cone and an xmax of maybe 2-3mm. They blend seamlessly to the Lowthers timbre at that frequency.

In turn, this system can play anything, and I do mean anything. R&R, Rap, Industrial, Electronica (and yes I'm a NIN fan), all of it with better control, slam and infinately more accuracy than the typical one box speaker. On the flip side of the coin, this system is phenominal on everything from large orchestral works to choral to trios and quartets.

The trick here is the active crossover. It allows you to flatten out those bass shy R&R recordings with a twist of the knob. If the recording still sounds a little thin after that, turn the crossover frequency up to the next octave.

Then you have the purity of the full range driver and the SET. This runs between 100hz and 15k. There is nothing to get in the way of the heart of the music. No passive parts, no trying to timbre match a woofer to a tweeter, no spitty treble. All you have is simple clarity of source. The typical SET has all of about 6 parts in the signal path. It doesn't get much simpler than that. This is one of the many reasons why it works so well.

Does a single driver do it all. No way. I've listened to tons of them and each sacrifices either bass or treble. If you build a system around a quality single driver and then augment (properly) where it falls short, there is nothing better IMO.

When it comes to an SET falling short on complex music.....don't believe it. Statements like that come from people who are absolutely clueless. They probably listened to one fleapowered SET working its ass off trying to drive a pair of Dynaudios which is a complete mismatch. Although, at GAS gatherings we've been know to drive Maggies with 45's (and it didn't sound too bad).

When it comes to Telligs statement and knowing HT recievers cut the drivers off at 80hz, I'd belive it. The dynamics from my Lowthers still startel me on occasions. I can't imagine what a HT would be like with 5 or 7 of these things in the same room with me all being driven by 300B's.

JLM, your preference for heavily rolled off treble explains why you don't like Lowthers or whizzer cones. That doesn't make them a bad thing, they're just outside of your comfort zone which is absolutely cool.

acresm22 · « **Reply #56 on:** 30 Mar 2006, 01:25 am »

Scott, that is a fantastic system! Tell me more...is that a Yamamoto 45 amp on top, with some custom 300B monoblocks on the sides?

I have never heard Lowthers, but would LOVE the opportunity! You don't happen to be located in southwest Montana do you??

Scott F. · « **Reply #57 on:** 30 Mar 2006, 01:47 am »

Quote from: acresm22

Scott, that is a fantastic system! Tell me more...is that a Yamamoto 45 amp on top, with some custom 300B monoblocks on the sides?

I have never heard Lowthers, but would LOVE the opportunity! You don't happen to be located in southwest Montana do you??

They're Yammies but not the 45's. They are the 300B's owned by one of teh local guys (Blackmore). The 300B's sitting on the floor are my Wellborne DRDs. Then the white amp in the middle on the rack is one of Hugh's AKSA 55 watters with the Nirvana upgrades. Its driving the 15" Goodman subs.

The crossover is a vintage Pioneer SF 850. I just finished up rebuilding the power supply in it. I swapped the old PS caps out for some new Elna Cerafines, the old diodes for new Shottkeys, the resistors our for Dales and bypassed it with a Jupiter Beeswax cap.

Unfortunately I'm the best part of two or three days drive from you. I live in St Louis. I'm afraid you've got a drive ahead of you to hear Lowthers or a single driver speaker. You've got two that I know of for sure, Ron Wellborne down in Denver and Terry Cain over in Washington. You might try posting at the Horn Shoppe and Omega Circles. I think they both have Frapper sites too. I'd bet somebody not too far away has a pair you could listen to.

Then again, if you ever make down this way, drop me a PM and come on by

JDUBS · « **Reply #58 on:** 30 Mar 2006, 02:36 am »

Quote from: acresm22

Just curious....those of you out there using a single driver Fostex or Lowther in a horn, TQWP, bass reflex or whatever.....what kind of music do you most often listen to?

I'm not trying to prove a point here, believe me. But as one of the earlier posters mentioned, SD speakers most often lend themselves to smaller scale music reproduction, doing extremely well with vocals, small jazz combos, maybe chamber music, but quite often falling apart when confronted with large orchestral works, multi-layered ele ...

I listen to all sorts of music with my Oris 150 front horns / AER MD-3 drivers (powered by a Red Wine Audio Clari-T). Of course the horns only go down to 160hz or so....then I've got a pair of JBL 4648 theater bass bins powered by a Crown K2 (500 watts / channel) for sub-160hz work.

By all kinds of music I mean Marilyn Manson to Norah Jones. Mostly I listen to Dave Matthews Band and the "typical" jam bands...i.e. Grateful Dead, Phish, etc.

-Jim

JLM · « **Reply #59 on:** 30 Mar 2006, 11:27 am »

I listen to several musical genres, but mostly jazz, and classical.

Scott, with nearfield setup and the on-axis response of the F200A drivers essentially flat to 20K the treble doesn't seem rolled off to me. IMO any decent audio system must be able to cover the full range of a piano (that starts at 32 Hz). My objection to whizzers is based primariy on principle as I can't get my head around exactly what goes on physically with the use of whizzers. I do agree that current production Lowthers do sound better as their quality control and designs have improved over the decades. BTW Bob Brines also offers MLTL design for Lowthers, that offers remarkable bass performance (into the 30's). Chip amps (9 parts in the signal path)synergize well with less efficient single driver speakers for probably the same reason SETs do. BTW I'm very infatuated with the SET sound, especially with 45s, but in the final analysis find it full of romantic colorations.

Typical SETs need 95 dB/w/m or better speakers to really show what they can do. The problem with high efficiency drivers is that they aren't normally tunefully accurate as manufacturers push too hard (IMO) for that extra efficiency.

If you don't have a Bob Brines floorstanding MLTL design, the next best option IMO is to use a powered sub with high quality and perhaps smaller driver and crossover below 80 Hz. This maintains the "active", imaging, and coherent midrange benefits of the single driver concept. If the F200A/MLTL option hadn't existed I'd gone this route.

I'd like to emphasize the need for quality drivers in single driver designs. You just can't hide the fact that the largest function of the sound in such speakers is based on the driver itself, so don't skimp and don't expect a $40 driver (and there are remarkable $40 extended range drivers out there) to sound as good as a $400 driver from the same vendor.