[warnerwh]

I'm sure the Vmps RM 40's would do exactly what Frank needs.  They'd make his job alot easier as the differences are obvious between amps, preamps and dacs so much so a novice can hear them.  I've heard the big B&W's and had been woefully unimpressed at their price.  The RM 40's are much superior.  These planars have no rear wave to deal with and the planars and ribbon follow a signal like no cone can until someone can figure out a way to defy the laws of physics.  

With regards to the digital processing.  My room is LEDE with bass traps.  A triple layer ceiling the bottom layer being acoustic tile.  The floor is carpet over a heavy pad on concrete.  First reflection points have been treated on both walls and ceiling. The sound has been the best I've heard.  Measure the room again and you still have significant dips and peaks, especially in the bass region.  

With the Behringer DEQ 2496 I'd been able to set a curve for the auto eq which it did nicely. Then make adjustments with the parametric equalizers to taste or what I feel is a more accurate sound than without the dsp.  At this point the signal has all been in the digital domain. Then run it to your own dac so there's no loss in sound quality, none.  For 300 bucks with a microphone you would be surprised what the Behringer will do.  My sound had been outstanding but the little DSP has been the icing on the cake.

Frank you really should hear the RM 40's.  I think they'll do exactly what you want so well you'll wonder how you got by without them. Besides you're older than I so your hearing isn't as sensitive as it used to be.  The last sentence btw I was: JUST KIDDING

[alpha_03]

Well it would appear that I have either been ignored or taken out of context. However, this statement:

All my designs and modifications are based on the fact that [most] consumers will be placing a given product in a real world enviroment. This could be a living room, dining room, etc. As we all know, niether myself or any other dealer/manufacturer can predict how any given product, especially speakers, will integrate into ones personal enviroment.

Vindicates what I believe. GENERALLY speaking, MOST rooms for the TYPICAL audio enviroment are closely the same. All be it my room is larger then many persons here in (26 x 14), I have plants, partial carpet, blinds, curtains, ect. not for the purpose of Audio, but creature comforts, because it's my HOME, NOT a STUDIO.

Here is my point. Why design speakers (or electronics for that matter) that only apeal to a (the) person that is WILLING to CREATE the PERFECT room?

How about this, YOU engineers get busy designing a better product that can facilitate MOST people's average rooms on an audiophile level- do that and you'll be famous, make millions, and have my vote for president.

As for headphones, what can I say, I assumed you would use Microphones to record your amplifiers, why not use them as a source as well?

Fellas, I am not trying to be rude, just realistic, isnt that what this is all about- the sound IN OUR homes, NOT your studio? Maybe I am wrong.

[warnerwh]

alpha: It's impossible to design a speaker to accomadate any room. You should read up on room acoustics. Depending on the dimensions any speaker will sound different.  With just that fact which doesn't include furniture etc. it's impossible to make a speaker act linearly.  Even if it had a perfectly flat frequency response in a controlled environment all bets are off in any other room.  These are laws of physics that must be dealt with if you are to attain the best from any speaker made.

Any room may work well with some speakers but lesser so with other speakers.  One thing Vmps does as do a few others is at least give the speaker owner the ability to adjust for the room and tastes to some degree which can help immensely in the effort toward getting good sound.

Without room treatment most rooms including yours are going to be in proximity of walls.  Let's use your sidewalls. You will have first reflections hitting these walls which will arrive at your ear a significant amount of time behind the direct signal.  Without something to absorb or diffuse these reflections the sound will become more blurred than it should be.

If you go to realtraps.com you'll find Ethan has done a good job of explaining what and why you need room treatment.  It's very easy to read and understand. The bottom line is though that good room acoustics are an improvement over the average room's acoustics.  The difference is very audible as an improvement.  The cost is small compared to electronics upgrades and is on par with a speaker upgrade.

A 2,000 dollar system in a good acoustical environment can sound better than a 5,000 system in the average room. I'd bet on it.

[alpha_03]

I have contacted Mr Salk

As in Jonus Salk? (Spl?) Loud speaker cook book design author? Same person- I wonder?

[lonewolfny42]

I have contacted Mr Salk

As in Jonus Salk? (Spl?) Loud speaker cook book design author? Same person- I wonder?

.... ...Jonas is here......Jim Salk is here......and an Owners Circle on AC.

Ever checkout the other Circles.... [/list:u]

[alpha_03]

Warnerwh, I wont argue that point with you, with one exception- well maybe two, equipment, vrs. speakers, vrs the enviroment.

If you can tell me- on a professional level, that any given speker you design will sound equally good in the exact same "accoustically perfect" room you win, and I will conceed to your point. However, since we both know that is a bunch of B.S, then suffice it to this, a speaker should be designed to a given room, with given aspect on a PARTICULAR responce curve on SAID room- (average).

Now with the above in mind, it logically dictates to me as a (the) typical consumer that "Your" high-end speaker should sound good in MY room-because it was expensive and had lots of "studio time" NO?

To this concept I say Hog wash!!! Excuse my .....truthfulness.

Design in accordence to YOUR customer, not to YOUR preference- or, go bankrupt. Remember, what is the golden rule to audio? It is SUBJECTIVE- (to a point of course).

After all, if we can send men to the moon, rockets to Mars, tell me, why then is it "impossible" to design a speaker in accordence to a given customers room, and or, preferences, or, for that matter on an average? Many in pro audio do it all the time- are you saying that this isnt "audiophile" or, germaine for good sound?

As any audio engineer should know, you design to the room, not change the room to your "prefered" design. Unless of course your unable to do such a thing, please let me know- I am truely wondering, that is, if your willing.

This is the essence of Mr, Van Alstines post, I believe, and one I think I begin to see as an impossibility, and for good reason. Maybe I am wrong.

[alpha_03]

lonewolfny42, excuse my ignorange for not knowing, I have read many of his publications. All be it, I am not as rude as you in pointing such a thing out.

[warnerwh]

Typically I don't like to apologize before I write something but I'm a hobbyist as you are but here's a few things you need to consider.  

All sounds have a frequency and a wavelength.  Bass wavelengths are say 10'-20' or even more. Upper treble frequencies are a fraction of an inch.  All these sounds have harmonics at multiples of their frequencies.  If your room has walls the sound will bounce from one wall to the other and from the floor to the ceiling and back. If the wavelength is the same as your rooms dimension or a multiple of that frequency it may augment the frequency or cancel it out to some degree at your listening position. This is very oversimplified but bear with me.

Now you have a frequency of say a middle C on a piano at 440hz and it's harmonics which are multiples of 440hz.  The sound is bouncing all over your room and because of it's dimensions the middle C at 440hz is 3db lower in amplitude than the rest of the frequency spectrum. The harmonic at 880hz is up 5db and so on and so forth through the rest of the harmonics.  How do you think that middle C on the piano is going to sound?  Not exactly like it should I would think.  This amplitude variation starts in the bass and goes through the treble in every room. The bass has typically the worst peaks and dips.

These amplitude variations are also caused by resonances and reflections of everything in this room.  No speaker maker can guess where your end tables are or what kind of cover is on your couch. Hardwood floors that are very reflective or thick carpeting?  What to design to?  These non linearities are much reduced with room treatments and further with digital signal processing.

Now to the fun part. Move your head or the microphone two feet over.  The measurements or sound will be notably different.  The sound varies depending on where you are in the room. Some speakers do have designed in non linearities but that too is for another thread.

My knowledge is quite limited but I've learned through real world practice that with room treatment and dsp the sound is more lifelike.  Different speakers will sound different even though the ampliitude nonlinearities are the same due to other reasons.  A far too complex subject to discuss here especially being as unless you are a speaker engineer you really don't have much more than a clue what all is going on in a speaker design.  I include myself in this same category.  It's kind of like the more you know the less you know.  I hope this helps you understand some of the problems.  I should add that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

Here's the simplified version: The average room has a nonlinearity or frequency response variation of plus or minus 15 decibels. Where these peaks and dips are at can only be roughly guessed upon.  My apologies for the tangent in Frank's thread.

[audiojerry]

Mr. avahifi wrote:

Keep your observations coming, but keep them polite and kind please.

Oh goody!!  Tact 2.2!!!  Pay $4000 extra to get some wonderful digital processors and amplifiers in you system.

Duhhh, how about spending that money on some Sonex. acoustic wallpaper, and heavy carpeting instead?  No way that Tact machine is going to get rid of high and mid range nasty reflections and echos from your room.  What a waste.

Frank Van Alstine

That sure was polite    

[zybar]

Mr. avahifi wrote:

Keep your observations coming, but keep them polite and kind please.

Oh goody!!  Tact 2.2!!!  Pay $4000 extra to get some wonderful digital processors and amplifiers in you system.

Duhhh, how about spending that money on some Sonex. acoustic wallpaper, and heavy carpeting instead?  No way that Tact machine is going to get rid of high and mid range nasty reflections and echos from your room.  What a waste.

Frank Van Alstine

That sure was polite    

Unfortunately what I have come to expect...

George

[avahifi]

I am sorry my Tact comment raised your ire.

The problem is that every digital ampifier I have ever heard made me feel like the fillings in me teeth were going to fall out.  Its hard to give a polite answer when a digital preamp or amp is suggested as an answer to my quest.

Back to speaker design and room acoustics.  All I am saying is the speaker designer needs to build as linear a speaker as possible, and it is up to the end user to provide as good a listening room as possible.  Obviously neither is going to obtain perfect results, but it is a reasonal goal and standard to try and achieve.

I have been able to achieve a really nice listening enviorment both in Burnsville and in Woodbury with acoustic wallpaper and Sonex ceilings.  I end up with a very quiet and dead room that has no obvious problems and the speakers we made and the 801s sould essentially the same in both rooms so I think my room treatment has done the job very well.

I agree with Brian's speaker design ideas for the most part and am very interested in hearing a set of VMPS speakers, along with SP Techs' and Jim Salks, among others.

I have had some manufacturers kindly offer demos, and I am taking them up on their offers.  I am listing now to a set of ACI Sapphires, and plan on taking time today for some serious listening to them.

I think my quest here and all your suggestions will pay off for me with a great set of modern speakers one of these days.

Thanks again for your help.

Frank Van Alstine

[avahifi]

Anyone want to lend me a "good" stereo digital amplifier for a few days?  Maybe it can make me change my mind.

Frank Van Alstine

[Mike Dzurko]

"Further listening to the ACI Sappire speakers -- they are a pleasure to listen to, maybe with an overall very slightly warm cast, but certainly very nice to hear all day long. They come with port plugs that I have not tried yet, not have I downloaded and read the owners manual from the web site, so the jury is still deliberating. I like them and wish ACI made that big floor standing speaker I am searching for. "

Thank you Frank  The more you listen to the XLs, the more you'll like them. Perhaps they will become your reference "small monitor".  Maybe the speaker to replace your Biros. I look forward to further comments, enjoy!

[BobRex]

Umm, warner,
If your piano is playing 440Hz for middle C then you need it tuned and fast!    440 is A above middle C, middle C is more like 250 Hz (247 if memory serves.)

[zybar]

Here is the chart that was referenced in an earlier post:



George

[ScottMayo]

Here is the chart that was referenced in an earlier post...

Standard caveat - the chart doesn't talk about overtones, and overtones are a big part of what give instruments their characteristic sound. That chart might lead you to believe that stuff above 5kHz isn't important, but it is. Most of what we call sparkle, realism and accuracy comes from our ability to process high frequencies. Listen to well recorded human voice, and then listen again with 5k-20k chopped out. It's just wrong.

[ctviggen]

Those are only the fundamental, and not the harmonic, frequencies of musical instruments/voice.

[skrivis]

One whom listens to Metallica certainly will not purchase a speaker designed around classical music parameters, and, visa versa. Nor should they.

Why wouldn't a speaker be designed so that it's accurate with all music, not just one type?

Perhaps the old "east coast" and "west coast" sound thing still exists in mid-fi speakers, but I'd imagine that high end speaker designers have moved beyond that type of thing.

[skrivis]

Our listening arrangement for new electronic design ideas is as follows. We put the two loudspeaker we are using side by side far away from the walls. We make the electronic changes to one channel only of the device we are testing. We set the preamp to mono. One of us makes the hookup of speakers, amplifier, preamp, and so on, randomly scrambling the cables as he goes, so nobody knows which channel is which when we start the playback. Then we play back the familiar source material in mono, and use the balance control to switch from channel to channel.

DBT of both channels in mono is probably valuable, but I suspect some problems may be more noticeable in stereo listening.

It also seems that the common power supply might blur the distinction between channels in some cases. You'd have to be quite careful to always avoid this type of thing.

Finally, if your ears and head aren't exactly symmetrical in all characteristics, it's possible that one channel would sound better (or at least different) than the other, so you would need to swap channels without revealing which is which in order to make the test a fair one.

If you're going to test in mono, I'd say it's better to have only one speaker in the room and switch between channels...

[avahifi]

I have spent a lot more time listening to the Sapphire XL speakers both on a Fet Valve Ultra 350 and on an Ultimate 70 (which has plenty of drive power for them).  Preamps an Ultra SL and a Transcendence Eight, DAC an Ultra DAC. Cables, old Radio Shack and whatever came free with various DVD players and cordless telephones.

First I tried them briefly with the optional port plugs intalled. That made an unsatisfacory bass cut-off and made them sound like a much smaller speaker.  This could work well when combining them with a sub-woofer (we do the same with the Biro L/1s) but not recommended for just listening to the Sapphire XL speakers alone.

Back to the Sapphires set up as they should be (no port plugs).  They are very very musical and have the rare ability to present a huge open sound stage and make the audio system go away.  The are very transparent, free of any high end glare or harshness, and are very detailed and revealing.  My impression of a bit of midrange "warmth" remains, but it is not bad or annoying at all -- kind of the sound of a very very very good vacuum tube amplfier.  Overall I like them, and in the absense of any other speaker, I could be comfortable with them long term in my own system (but I would miss the clean deep bass excursion that only a much bigger system can provide so far).

Finish quality is outstanding.  Comparing them to our Biro L/1s, (which are not out of production), I still like the Biro's better as they are more neutral to my ears and just as big and transparent playing.  The finish quality of the ACI speakers is definately better and the looks are better too.  The Biro has a better clean bass reach and no "tube" cast at all.  However the Biro is gone so that is mute.

I consider the ACI Sapphire XL speaker to be a rare high quality value.  Highly recommended.

Frank Van Alstine