[skrivis]

I have spent a lot more time listening to the Sapphire XL speakers both on a Fet Valve Ultra 350 and on an Ultimate 70 (which has plenty of drive power for them).  Preamps an Ultra SL and a Transcendence Eight, DAC an Ultra DAC. Cables, old Radio Shack and whatever came free with various DVD players and cordless telephones.

First I tried them briefly with the optional port plugs intalled. That made an unsatisfacory bass cut-off and made them sound like a much smaller speaker.  This could work well whe ...

Moot, not mute. hehe

It looks like their Panorama might be worth a try. They also have subwoofers, so maybe you could work something out with those and the Sapphire?

[nathanm]

alpha 03,

The heavy metal crowd (and such) are typically into high spls, not high fidelity and need only PA speakers with boomy bass to recreate the concert experience.

I would strongly disgree.  The same performance characteristics that work for any other music works for metal playback.  It's all about the tone.  Recreating the concert experience is a separate goal and would require: Bodies, Heat, Smell and Lighting, none of which are provided by PA speakers with boomy bass.  Low distortion and coherency at "healthy" SPLs I would also say are important.  By its nature heavy metal is going to have more going on in the upper mids and treble region because of the guitar harmonics.  Correct reproduction in this area is critical.

Anyway, the SP Tech speakers would certainly be great for testing amplifiers Frank, because they will be pushed into clipping most likely.  I've never seen a more power hungry speaker!  They're like a black hole for electricity!  They would definitely test your amps' mettle IMO.

[Aether Audio]

Frank,

The speakers nathanm is refering to and that he has had experience with, were our now obsolete Timepiece 2.0's.  Nevertheless, the new Timepiece 2.1 still has the same sensitivity rating of 85dB @1W/1M.  They will require the same amount of power to reach a given SPL as any other speaker of this sensitivity.  The only difference being that they do not thermally compress at higher levels as do most lower sensitivity speakers.  Therefore, if you have the available power, they can reproduce exceedingly high SPL's - especially considering their single 8-inch woofer design.  Apart from that though, they can reach SPL's that many, much larger systems with more/larger woofers cannot achieve, regardless of available power.  Such SPLs are not limited to mid and high frequencies either as are most other speakers.  The Timepiece 2.1 is not excursion limited at any frequency above 30Hz.  This means they can play just as loud at say...40Hz as they can at 400 or even 4,000Hz.  This, I believe, you will find is not very common amongst any of the speaker systems available in the market

-Bob

[alpha_03]

Mr, Van Alstine, I would be happy to "loan" you one of my Protons, you would be amazed how good they sound, truely.

Let me know, your not to far away from me, so shiping shouldnt be to bad. I'd be willing to bet you'll conclude the Proton as one very fine and very dynamic 100wpc amplifier as you have ever listened to with concern for an SS amplifier.

However, I want your promise I'll get her back :~) as she was sent.

[jackman]

I'm not sure why would Frank want to borrow a Proton amplifier when he already makes some very good sounding amplifiers.  I have heard several in the line, from the entry level to the one that used to be top of the line (I think he improved it since I owned it).  They all sounded great.

Anyway, although I haven't heard them, and I don't know if are available already assembled, but the new speakers from GR Research look really cool.  Plus, Danny is an extremely talented speaker designer.  I would be willing to wager the new GR speakers sound very good and would be a nice match for AVA amplifiers.

Also, my earlier suggestion for Bamberglab Series 5's was not apropriate because Frank is looking for passive designs that can be driven with a single stereo amp.  In that case, I'd like to suggest Bamberglab.com Series 5 speakers with passive crossovers.  I have my Series 5's set up in my room and they are honestly the best sounding speakers I have ever heard in my system.  I love the Seas Excel mids and the Mellinium tweeters.  They completely disappear, are very transparent and are flat below 20hz.  Phil's prices are very low so I doubt he could put together a deal to allow someone to distribute his speakers but if one could be worked out, I do not know of a better designed or better sounding line of speakers.

J

[alpha_03]

I'm not sure why would Frank want to borrow a Proton amplifier when he already makes some very good sounding amplifiers.

LOL, what a smug.....err.........person, geeze, get over yourself.

Im done with this thread, some of you people are just plain RUDE.

I find it odd that if you do not have some designer badge, or mega bucks invested in some "unknown name" audio system that for some odd reason everyone else' gears sucks arse, to that I again say...........get over yourself you RUDE wanna be, sheesh.

I would be willing to bet you have never even heard a Proton power amp in a good enviroment, or for that matter, on really good speakers, lol, what a fool.

Good day to you all.

[jackman]

LOL, what a smug.....err.........person, geeze, get over yourself.

Im done with this thread, some of you people are just plain RUDE.

I find it odd that if you do not have some designer badge, or mega bucks invested in some "unknown name" audio system that for some odd reason everyone else' gears sucks arse, to that I again say...........get over yourself you RUDE wanna be, sheesh.

I would be willing to bet you have never even heard a Proton power amp in a good enviroment, or for that matter, on really good speakers, lol, what a fool.

Good day to you all.

Hey dude, I don't understand your point.  Frank is a designer and manufacturer of amplifiers, preams, and DAC's looking for a line of speakers to test his designs on and to possibly sell.  I still fail to understand how testing a Proton amp will help him achieve his goal.  Nothing against Proton, I haven't seen one of their amps in years.  It may be the best amp on the planet for all I know but I don't know how that will help Frank choose a speaker system, which was the purpose of this thread.  

I didn't mean anything personal and hope I didn't come off as a snob because that was not my intention.  My system has no designer badge appeal.  In fact, when my non-audiophile friends come over, they poke fun of some of the unknown brands I have in my system...until I crank things up and "enlighten" them.

Cheers,

J

[wshuff]

See ya!

[bhobba]

I would be willing to bet you have never even heard a Proton power amp in a good environment, or for that matter, on really good speakers,

I have.  I used one for years on a pair of Gale 402's - in their time one of the finest speakers on the planet.  All right performance - good value for money but ME amps for example trounced them into the 402's which were widely known as a tough load. The previous model the 401's would regularly destroy amps.  The 402's were not quite that bad but were up there in the difficult load department.  The performance was not commensurate with the price difference IMHO which is why I never upgraded until I changed speakers - but I would be telling a lie if I said the ME was not better - it was.

lol, what a fool..

Here I must object.  The purpose of this thread was to discuss what speakers Frank could use to test out his amps which are by reputation up there with the best on the planet.  Your comment about Protons was simply not appropriate nor is language like 'fool' etc.  A review of your posts indicates your willingness to indulge in such terms - I believe responders in general showed much better restraint.

Thanks
Bill

[avahifi]

The purpose of this thread is to gather the information for me to make a good choice of a full range speaker for the purpose of evaluating my electronics  full range.

Although I would be interested in listening to what is considered a really good digital amplifier if anyone would care to loan we one, I will decline the offer to listen to some other brand of solid state amplifiers.  We already build good ones and there is no real value of having me listen to one, especially if it fails our bench testing proceedure distructively, then I am faced with the cost of repairing a product I have no data for. You cannot believe how many "foreign" amplifiers just die here in testing - few seem to like full power 100K hz square waves into an eight ohm load in parallel with a .01 uF capacitor for example.

Lets keep this to loudspeakers please, and no "fool" comments.

Frank Van Alstine

[maxwalrath]

How crazy of a trial do you put these amps through?

I have a chip amp, an Audiosector Patek. I don't know if this would interest you to try, as I don't really know the difference between chip and digital amplification. I just heard it sounded good and got a good deal on it.  

Anyway, the fantasy football gods were nice to me, so I think I might send the amp to Peter Daniel to get the Blackgate upgrades. Those take a while to burn in (according to myth and legend), but if you want to give it a listen, I could send it your way if you would send it on to Mr. Daniel after a few days.

[Bill Baker]

Hello Again Frank,
 I think you have tapped the Circle in regard to speaker recommendations. From here on out, I think there will be more debating than recommendations. This thread seems to have taken an offbeat path. To be expected of course.
 I will now sit back and await the final results.

 Good luck Frank and can't wait to see what speaker(s) you end up with.

[avahifi]

You are probably right Bill.  But I want the thread to be available for a while.  I have lots of re-reading to do and then make contacts with some of the recommended manufacturers.

Frank

[Atwood]

Harbeth Monitor 40s or Super HL5s.
http://www.harbeth.co.uk/hifispeakers/monitor40domestic/index.php

[Russell Dawkins]

Why waste your time with anything other than the best speakers in the world?

http://www.worldsbestloudspeakers.com/

[guest1632]

First of all I am going to evaluate a pair of ACI Sapphire XL speakers that MESHBRO has so kindly offered to loan me over the holidays.  I know they are bookshelf size, but it will be interesting to see what fresh engineering has done in recent times.

Then I hope that Jim Sauk will be able to provide a promised loaner set of his speakers for me soon.  They get very positive comments from the owners, but curiously have not been mentioned in this huge thread.

Finally SPRES has to me made the most sense  ...

Yes they were mentioned towards the beginning of the thread.

Ray

[guest1632]

Some of the best speakers I have heard are the EFE t-22cf's  I put them up against the B&W802's and they stood right up there with them with a sub.  Best $1200 I ever spent.

Yeah, I was thinking of Ed Frias speakers. the major disadvantage is once you buy, you keep/stuck if you don't like.

In all fairness to some of the other good speaker manufacturers out there, I kinda think Bob has crossed the line. Now Bob, if you just laid out your thinking without selling your speeks on this forum, I probably wouldn't have a problewm. I would like more info on the Daedlus and just for curiousity sake, if anyone has compared the two, SP and Daedlus. Ed Frieas speakers are supposed to be wow for the money spent. Haven't heard them either. Now, what each of the manufacturers should offer to do is to send Frank a pair to listen/evaluate. Then all this hooplah on this thread will go away. I too will be curious what Frank chooses. I commend Kevin for volunteering his set of speaks to have Frank listen to.

Ray

[Marbles]

Ray, there are 3 pages that used to be in this thread, that are now in the Wastebin.  Bob was responding to many of the posts that are there.

[guest1632]

Considering the above, I believe a good High quality set of headphones would suite the above purpose far better then a pair of monitor speakers ever could. Never the less, left to right side hearing for most humans is not equal, just as left to right vision is never equal, ect. ect. There is a human conditon at play with such a way of determining any possible "flaw" that may exist. I believe here is where a designers expierence takes over, and Science goes out the window.

Well, now, I have a couple of questions. What speakers do you manufacture?  Sorry for my suspicious nature here.

Secondly, If the room is designed correctly, and the 2 speakers with the same parameters are being used, then what Frank is doing is accurate. Unfortunately, headphones are not 4 or 8 ohm sources. We can theorize all day long and discuss various speaker philosophies all day long, but what Frank needs now is a pair of speeks that will do what he needs them to do. I'm not sure what all this reading will accomplish, except it's good education for us the readers.

Ray

[guest1632]

I really wonder what a speaker builder can do effectively to design in non-linearities into his speaker system to compensate for room non-linearities?

It sounds like a really impossible premise to me.

"Buy my speaker because the built in 5000 Hz resonant peak will make up for your room's dip in the region"  sure, maybe, duhhh, not a chance.

By the way, some of you are just not reading my original statement.  Pray tell how I am supposed to evaluate power amplifiers on headphones?

Well that's sounds good, but I don't think that's what he is looking for. Back in the early '70's JBL brought out one of the first room equalizers. Unfortunately, that device was rather noisy, but the affect was startling especially at that time to my untrained ear. I was just starting out in audio. It actually made those speakers listenable. I don't remember which JBL's he had, except that they were big bookshelf. I think we need to just stick to Frank's original parameters. The guy knows what he is doing.

Ray