Zu Druids---Where's the Bass?

srayle · « **on:** 22 Nov 2005, 09:25 pm »

Hey all,

I've had my Druids for about 5 months, and truly enjoy their ability to mate with just about any amp you can throw at it. I'm currently running Wright WPA 3.5 2a3 SET monoblocks, and will also use my RedWine Vinnie-modded Teac, which seems to have a lot of slam. Neither, however, will give any really deep low-end bass (I don't have a meter to measure, tho). The Druids are midrange monsters, but somehow, looking at the big driver on the Druids, one would think that the low end would be good.

I previously owned the gallo reference 3's which seemed to perform better in the low-end. I was moved to get the Druids primarily by miklorsmith's discovery and posts of the Druids...he apparently also previously owned the gallo ref 3, and sold them in favor of the Zu's...then apparently moved up the chain to the $9000 Zu Definitions...

Are any of you Druid owners using a sub, and if so, which one?

Jon L · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Nov 2005, 09:49 pm »

Quote from: srayle

Hey all,

I've had my Druids for about 5 months, and truly enjoy their ability to mate with just about any amp you can throw at it. I'm currently running Wright WPA 3.5 2a3 SET monoblocks, and will also use my RedWine Vinnie-modded Teac, which seems to have a lot of slam. Neither, however, will give any really deep low-end bass (I don't have a meter to measure, tho). The Druids are midrange monsters, but somehow, looking at the big driver on the Druids, one would think that the low end would be good.

...

I've heard two separate Zu Druid setups 2 days ago at Vacuum Tube Valley show, and both setups had plenty of bass. One setup was using < 1 WPC 6111 tube amp and the other using 40 wpc Shindo tube mono's.

You're not going to have Wilson Maxx 2 type of bass, but you should be able to get enough amount and extension of bass appropriate for music.

Have you played with different speaker placement, cable matching, etc?

miklorsmith · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Nov 2005, 09:54 pm »

Thanks for the words. Hope I didn't lead you astray. . .I'd still own the Druids if I didn't luck out with the Def's but I would be looking for a good sub to mate with them. They are very fast and tuneful in the bass department but don't mine the subterranean depths.

213cobra has opined the Method would be the only sub fast enough to keep up with the Druids. You certainly would get a lot of surface area with the 2 - 15" drivers, but it's a mono solution and expensive.

I would guess that REL would be a good choice, or some of the new Velodyne units would probably mate well. I guess it depends on what your priorities are as far as speed, power, and depth.

I would generally avoid ported boxes. I would also guess front-firing would give the best leading-edge response that I would consider important to apparent speed, though being properly designed is THE operative parameter. If it's endorsed by HomeTheaterMonster magazine, it's probably going the wrong direction.

srayle · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Nov 2005, 10:05 pm »

miklorsmith,

...Oh, I'm very happy with the Druids...they really do make music. Yet the one thing for me is the bass issue...while they're not bass-shy, you're right--they don't mine the depths, and I guess I miss that last bit of low-extension. I think to be optimally satisfied, I'm going to have to get a sub...I think the Method would have to be the best choice, but wouldn't mind hearing some of the others. Anybody have any experience with Martin Logan subs? I would think they would have to be fast to keep up with their ribbon speakers.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Nov 2005, 11:47 pm »

seems to me the most consistently favourably reviewed subs are made by SV
http://www.svsubwoofers.com/
and Hsu
http://www.hsuresearch.com/

I have owned a pair of Hsus for 11 years and have never regretted it. Many who have heard my system have noted the name and asked me to tell them if I ever wanted to sell them.
The Hsus are characterized by being essentially inaudible above crossover and sounding flat and neutral down to their very low (-6dB at 13Hz) limits. I have a pair of their passive 10 inchers, crossed at 40Hz to a pair of big Tannoys. I imagine they would work with Druids, though probably not as well as a pair of Methods, but much cheaper.
Russell

dlite · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 11:13 am »

srayle,

I have yet to hear the Zu Cable speakers, but will be becoming a dealer in Sydney, Australia for them, so i hope they live up to their reputation. Doing my research at the moment.

Have you tried playing with the height of spikes to get a different bass response, although the Druids are never going to have the deepest bass in the world, if they truly go down to 35Hz it may very well be the fact that the bass is so tight that the Druids appear bass shy.

ton1313 · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 12:00 pm »

dlite...

Very true statement. Some people have never been exposed to clean bass, and are only used to the bloated/distorted sounds that we heve been exposed to from some other speakers.

gonefishin · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 12:25 pm »

When trying the different speaker positioning...I'd also give attention to the listening position in the room as well.

I haven't heard the speakers, so I can't comment on the sound. But they are known to be a little bass shy. Could they benefit from a smaller room than their in right now?

take care,
dan

miklorsmith · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 03:22 pm »

On the spike height - this DEFINITELY plays a big role in bass response. If you're using carpet spikes I recommend going to the hard-floor versions. I don't think the carpet spikes can be dialed in sufficiently to optimize the vent-loading. Zu may disagree with me on this.

What I did with my carpeted floor was to spike a ceramic tile (from Lowe's garden department) to the floor underneath using cut chair-feet (threaded, also from Lowe's). Then, I set the hard-floor spikes on that.

You can further dial in the bass response using the threads on the spikes, to increase gap, or try sliding things underneath which would decrease the gap. Zu recommends 1 - 2 CD cases as being the optimum range, with lower gaps giving tighter bass and upper values a higher overall amplitude.

dogdog49 · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 04:36 pm »

Hi srayle. would you mind commenting on the differences that you hear in the mids and treble with the druids as compared to the gallos? Also, what are the dimensions of your listening room? Have you tried moving the druids closer to the corners?

-Richard- · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 04:50 pm »

Hi Srayle,

Nice to see you posting on AC...

These are general impressions...

I also heard the Zu Druids at the Vacuum Tube Valley show...a tepid show that
refused to emerge from its sleepy continence...

And like Jon L, I heard them driven by the tiny impamp with its equally tiny tubes...

I thought the Druids sounded a bit thin on the bottom...let me rush in and
quickly say that I am not at all interested in voluptuous bass with its visceral
kick in the stomach effects...most of the music I listen to has very little
bass prominence...what I am talking about is a somewhat tipped up frequency
personality...not at all inconsistent with my experience with American
speakers generally...

The hotel room did not appear to be a good match for the Druids...it was small...and
Sean...a really nice younger gentleman who is friendly and assessable...had them
facing the door and windows of the rooms entrance...

In this set-up the Druids lacked smoothness...I think amplification played a
significant part in the presentation...and so did the room...

The Druids look quite modern...masculine with their post-industrial aesthetic...

Sean loves a kind of heavy rock (sorry forgot the name of this genre)...
and I wondered if the Druids were voiced with that in mind...

I liked Sean and I like the direction that Zu is going with their super-efficient
drivers and sleek designs...

I had the distinct impression that the cabinet for the Druids may not be entirely
helpful in fleshing out the bottom end in an all-over "organic" sense of balance...
and that may be why Zu has introduced their new rather expensive subwoofer...

I will try to hear them set up more optimally if I have the chance...

Just sharing thoughts...

I would like to wish everyone a joyous ThanksGiving...good food and good cheer...

Warmest regards -Richard-

miklorsmith · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 05:55 pm »

Boy is this hobby funny. I never found the Druids to be anything but smooth. I would even describe their sound as warm, with excellent musical fill on the bottom.

But, I don't doubt your impressions in the least, Richard.

Happy TurkeyDay, everyone!

Mike

ctviggen · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 06:08 pm »

Russel, I have both an SV sub and a VMPS larger and like the Larger better. The Larger is more expensive, though.

-Richard- · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 06:12 pm »

Hi Miklorsmith,

Knowing from your well informed posts the constantly careful attention you
pay to synergy and set-up...I naturally bow to your sense of what must be
the Druid's real "nature"...especially when optimized for a particular room
and matched with ancillary equipment that shows off their best attributes...

I am only reporting on what Deb and I heard...in that particular room...with
that particular amplification...Srayle has suggested that Zu has a reputation
for bringing examples of their speakers to shows that have not been fully
broken in...and that may well account for what I heard...

Warm regards -Richard-

Tbadder1 · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 09:15 pm »

I owned Druids for a year and found that placement isn't going to get you very much extra bass, if any at all. These are sealed enclosures and as such you won't get the room to help you out much. That said you should know that the Druids are flat at 41Hz, the lowest note on an electric bass guitar, so bass shouldn't be a problem unless you're a classical guy. So I agree with the previous comment; people don't really know good clean tight bass. We're enculturated to believe it's bloated, overly weighed down, fuzzy, etc. Now the question is, are the Druids voiced to be on the lean side--that I agree with. With the Druids the motto is "speed is everything." And the develpoers never strayed from that belief. That's why the Druids are electrostatic scary. Great speaker. I also thought that Zu developed a matching sub called the Method (don't know for sure). Take care. Gooble till the cows come home.

Dan

miklorsmith · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 09:44 pm »

The Druids aren't sealed, they've "vented" out the bottom, which is why spike-length is critical. Zu's careful not to call it a port, as the "Griewe" box model is different from a ported box.

I also didn't find positioning within the room to have a tremendous influence on tonal balance.

warnerwh · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Nov 2005, 11:36 pm »

Every room is different. The most important tweak I think is room position for your speakers. Spend some time doing this whether or not the bass gets to the point you want as it may be you need a sub. Listen for a while before moving them much and keep trying til you get the best balance you can. This is free.

Get the best sub you can afford as this will help the entire presentation of your speakers, not just the bass. Good bass costs money but is well worth it. By all accounts from people that have heard those and whose opinion I trust the Druids sound excellent. If you like the sound except for the bass, a good sub, not an ok sub, will be well worth the effort.

GHM · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 Nov 2005, 12:51 am »

I would like to hear these speakers myself one day.Apparently Richard isn't the only one that hasn't quite warmed up to the Zu.Two guys on Agon posted their impressions today.Both seem very knowledgeable in the hobby . http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1117595963&openflup&20&4#20

No one speaker is for everyone. That's why they make plenty to choose from.

A little negative feedback is good... it keeps the balance.

Tbadder1 · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Nov 2005, 11:12 pm »

Quote from: miklorsmith

The Druids aren't sealed, they've "vented" out the bottom, which is why spike-length is critical. Zu's careful not to call it a port, as the "Griewe" box model is different from a ported box.

I also didn't find positioning within the room to have a tremendous influence on tonal balance.

DOH! (Homer Simpson impression) Griewe box so you say. Wow and I had those babies standing upside down for months trying to get more bass and still never noticed that port--LOL! Probably the reason I'm still looking for that perfect speaker, completely inattentive.

Seriously though, it really can't do that much because I tried all different lengths concerning spike lengths, and couldn't discern "more or less bass."

peace, love, dope (and evidently I've been heavy on the later)
Dan

Ispec1 · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Nov 2005, 12:17 am »

I have heard the Druids at the east coast demo where the sound ,I thought was decent considering the size of the room (extremely large) but recently putting a system together for a friend bought a pair and have been using in my system(McCormack DNA 225, Audio Research SP16L) and have been experiencing deep tight base. You definitly need to get the spike height right.