[jon_010101]

At the Easton demo I was, at first, somewhat disappointed.  It is interesting, the audiogon poster describe them as "congested, honky and boxy" which is exactly what I thought... but...

Then I sat down in the sweet spot and the soundstage just unfolded in front of me.  When I heard my own CD, in the sweet spot, with a big SET amp, I was quite impressed!  They still had a slight sense of coloration (might be something else in the system?), but I could easily see the appeal: big sound, layered, fast, dynamic, efficient.

From an engineering perspective, the 10" driver will be more directional at higher frequencies.  So maybe its off-axis performance doesn't reflect what it can do in the sweet-spot?  This issue is probably what gave me an initial bad impression, and may be a source of disappointment in demo situations where one sometimes need to fight for a good listening position.

[213Cobra]

At the VTV show, the hotel room configuration did not allow anything by anyone to sound particularly good, so everyone was handicapped but the room traits varied somewhat, different exhibitors had varying coping strategies for addressing the dysfunctional acoustics, and varying equipment was vulnerable in varying ways. In the Zu room, clearly Druids were bass-shy in the immediate listening area, but when I stepped back into the anteroom to for a phone call I could hear more bottom range from the setup back there, with more linear distance between the speakers and my ears.

It's hard to anticipate what any one person considers sufficient when it comes to bass output. The Druid maintains its acoustic power down to a little below 40Hz, which I get in my home. It falls off below that just as spec'd. Flat to 40Hz or so sounds like real bass to me, even if another 20 cycles of range are missing. I have Druids and Definitions in the same house, different rooms. Sure, the Defs go deeper -- they're supposed to and they have a 4x10" sub-bass array.  But I never feel I have to listen to Defs exclusively to reproduce convincing bass. The bass character of the Druid is fast, clean, tight and tuneful. Not bloated in any way.

There are some variables to consider and the chief one is the gap between your floor and the bottom surface of the Druid's baseplate. Sean and Adam recommend stacking 2 CD jewel boxes as your gap guage, and my own experiments on hard floors confirm that's correct. Up or down from that mean, very small differences have quite audible effects on bass character and apparent depth. Closer to the floor seems to harden the attack but lean out the character. Higher fattens up the bass, more like an old tube amp, with less distinct transient detail. Carpet poses its own variables. If you don't have both, get the short and tall spikes from Zu and experiment.

The Druid is relatively insensitive to corner loading. Cables and amp selection have big effects on overall sound as well as your perception of bass. The Druid looks simple but it is an amazingly revealing instrument worthy of associated gear out of scale to its own price, as well as capable of uplifting modest gear to unexpected performance. Certainly, they are worth a pair of Zu Ibis cables if you can swing them. Or one of the less expensive grades. If you use a tube amp, even differences in tubes can tune the bass. In a 300B for instance, you can get a fast, harder attack from KR or the Chinese solid plate tubes, and alternately hear fuller, fatter bass from mesh plates. In the 845s, the Chinese variants all deliver markedly different character for tuning the system.

Speakers that are flat to 40Hz aren't bass shy, but the bass content has to be in the performance. However, most of the speakers most people have listened to all their lives have delivered decidedly inaccurate bass. It can be disconcerting to be in the absence of that.

I would not consider any subwoofer other than a Method to mate with a Druid. It presents the same problem as trying to match a sub with Quad ESLs -- almost hopeless. Even and REL doesn't have the transient quickness and articulation. And the harmonic distortion of most compact subs is too disturbing to match to the Druid's clean tone. Yeah, it's a mono solution unless you want to pop for 2, but then you might as well step up to Definitions. I'd tune the variables and otherwise leave well enough alone.

Phil

[ton1313]

All,

For the past 3 weeks, I have been listening to a new pair of Druids in my second system, and the depth of the bass has actually been impressing me, more than I can remember from my older pair (Druid MK2). As Phil stated, they don't go as deep as the Definitions, but the bass they are producing has a very natural & accurate balance. FYI they are broken in as they have over 400 hundred hours on them from being used for RMAF & the Chicago show.

My room had a placement issue due to some AC vents in the floor. As gap height is important, we didn't want the Druids to have a "black hole" below them to potentially taint the sound, so Adam & Sean suggested a factory set gap @ 3/16" - 1/4" and a solid baseplate. The speaker is actually lifted off of the baseplate by 4 small spacers, to provide the gap.
They look & sound really great!

[Russell Dawkins]

I think it would make sense for Zu to offer as an optional accessory for the Druid second plinths to go under the existing ones, for people who plan to use them on carpets. For appearance and functional reasons it would make sense to make them slightly larger in width and depth than the existing base. The existing spike hardware would go under this plinth and it would come with nice, simple, brass or aluminum (to match the grey) standoffs with a couple of washers for gap fine tuning. The standoffs would fit into the existing spike receptacles on the bottom of the current base.
I imagine it could add interest to the existing design and visually balance the arresting appearance of the top of the speaker. As well, the implementation should be straightforward and it might even fit the existing shipping package.
Russell

[srayle]

Well, here's an update. A friend loaned me a subwoofer, not a great, fancy one, but I can adjust the crossover and the volume. After listening for a few days, I can only conclude, that...*as my system is set up now*... the Druids lack bass. This brand X subwoofer, while with some music is noticably slow, definitely adds a needed foundation to the music. It sounds deeper, fuller, richer...with more, well,... foundation. Without the sub, the music has a thinner quality, ungrounded. And I am not talking about any artificial sounding rumbling going on, nor any discernable sub sound, but a fleshing out of the bass. So now I'm down to several options:

a. The Druids aren't properly broken in. My friend that loaned me the subwoofer suggested this, and he may be right. Apparently the Druids really require a beating before they really loosen up, and I've never really played them for extended periods at very loud volumes. Will look into this after the other options are explored.

b. Speaker height. Very plausible explanation, will have to be explored.

c. room dynamics/speaker placement. Probably could be tinkered with and improve what I've got. But why does it sound so good with just a little smidge of sub thrown in?

d. the Druids actually need a sub.

I do love the Druids, they have a naturalness and ease that really appeals to me. When I go over to my friend's and listen to the Gallos I sold him, I miss the sound of those, too. He's currently got them set up to sound like a holographic sound stage, with an upper end that is both detailed and sweet. Speakers just friggin' disappear. Really nice. Just a beautiful, but different sound.

[Red Dragon Audio]

I wanted to response to your points with some ideas that might help.

a. The Druids aren't properly broken in. My friend that loaned me the subwoofer suggested this, and he may be right. Apparently the Druids really require a beating before they really loosen up, and I've never really played them for extended periods at very loud volumes. Will look into this after the other options are explored.

It is highly likely that those 10" drivers need to be loosened up considerably.  Those are some fairly stiff surrounds and suspensions which need to be stretched.  Get yourself some bass track CD, put it on repeat and let it stroke the woofers in and out about .5"-1" for a good hour or two.  Once you have a loose or compliant woofer suspension, the woofer will produce deeper bass and do so more easily even at lower volumes.

b. Speaker height. Very plausible explanation, will have to be explored.

This is clearly important as the special loading technique developed by ZU mandates proper Gap Height.  I would place the Druids on top of a solid flat piece of granite/marble so you can more accuractely measure how big the gap is at the bottom of the speakers.  Zu recommends 2-CD's should be able to slide underneath the Druid.  Since this is how the bass is determined this will also have a great deal to do with what kind of bass response you get in your room.

c. room dynamics/speaker placement. Probably could be tinkered with and improve what I've got. But why does it sound so good with just a little smidge of sub thrown in?

Often times placement of main speakers for ideal imaging doesn't provide for the best in-room bass response. Where do you have your sub? In or near a Corner?  Do you want to place your Druids in the corners? See what I mean?

If you could just plop your speakers down and get great imaging, depth, width of soundfield and wonderful bass...well that would be too easy.  We need a little challenge in our hobby don't we?

d. the Druids actually need a sub.

 This is relative for some folks but I would agree with your statement.  They need a sub since they don't reproduce the first/last octave of bass 20Hz-40Hz (though I think they have output down into the mid 30's).  

A truly capable subwoofer can add a great deal to any speaker for a multitude of reasons.  I think one of the main reasons has to do with proper placement of sub for accurate reproduction of low end frequencies.    A subwoofer should also create a solid foundation for the music to "ride upon".  Once you hear a high quality subwoofer in your system, you may never want to go back.

As you can already tell that even a modest sub adds something nice to the overall sound.

[213Cobra]

It's difficult for one person to know what kind of bass response sounds anemic to another listener. I can't imagine that a speaker that is more or less flat to 38 Hz has insufficient bass, but in the Druid's case it is natural and quick, defined bass which certainly sounds "unhifi" and counter to what decades of speakers lead many people to expect. But let's presume you are a good judge of bass content and character in a system. What could be wrong?

On the break-in, yes Druids do take a beating to really limber up. I am still hearing discernible improvements to mine almost 10 months later. Aggressive accelerated break-in can only do so much. Beyond that, they just have to be used daily. So, this could be a factor.

On floor-to-baseplate gap height, this is critical. If you set up for a gap height equal to the thickness of w stacked CD jewel cases as a reference on a bare hard floor, you will find that very small -- by the millimeter -- differences higher and lower have seriously noticeable consequences to the bass. Experiment.

On room placement, the Druid is among the least placement-sensitive speakers I've ever listened to. They are relatively insensitive to corner placement or proximity to other boundaries. In the middle of a large space, they will produce tuneful bass without boundary reinforcement nearby. With respect to bass performance specifically, I think you will hear more profound differences in gap height adjustments than you will in  moving the Druids around your room.

If however you are accustomed to hearing music with the 20Hz - 40Hz range present and robust, well then perhaps a Druid could sound bass-shy to you. In which case, yes.....a Method Subwoofer does improve the sound of a Druid system. Sure. With no penalty to transient consistency and dynamic performance. But I am hard pressed to say it's necessary for anyone, however I really can't put myself in your head and know how important perception of bass is to you for a convincing illusion of fidelity, or what factors make relative bass performance satisfying. What I can say is that if a speaker that can produce realistic bass down to 40Hz or a little below is credible for your perception of fidelity, then the Druid will suffice alone, but break-in and set-up can be critical to that fulfillment. Otherwise, a Method Sub is a seamless match.

Phil

[GHM]

srayle,

We audiophiles sometimes live in denial. You've owned these speakers for more than 5 months. If you've played them an average amount of time as most A-philes play their speakers. I really can't see you getting more bass with breakin.

You've proved it to yourself that a subwoofer is needed. I wouldn't ponder on about it any more.If you love the speakers. Get a subwoofer ..so you can enjoy your setup to it's fullest. If not find a fullrange speaker that works in your room.It might help if you could acquire a SPL meter and test tones to hear for yourself what the speakers do in your room. Since all rooms are different ..you may have a suckout in the lower frequencies..who knows?

I've wasted plenty of money on denial and watched others waste even more . I see it all the time . Guys buying special cables and powercords trying to make a system do something it's not capable of.
Forget going from the shoulder to the elbow then to the hand routine.
Go straight to the problem...shoulder to hand and save yourself the headaches.

Hope it all works out for you.

[-Richard-]

Sensible advice GHM...as always...

I suspect there is a balance issue present in Srayle's perception of bass...rather
than the absolute measurable presence of this Hz level or that...

Balance may be the most important factor in our perception that a real illusion
of a musical space has been recreated in a satisfying way...

After all...we are talking about illusion...

Srayle feels something is missing...something that feels essential to his sense
that an organic musical event is unfolding in his listening room...

And he has identified that what is missing for him is in the bass region of the
frequency range...but I suspect...this is mere conjecture on my part...that there
is a leaness in the lower midrange that is contributing to this perception...

A case in point is my Open Baffle B200 speakers...I have never measured the
Hz region where roll-off begins...but a good guess would be around 60Hz or possibly
higher...yet I have no feeling that bass is missing...I suspect it has something to
do with the natural spatial bloom that the B200's impart with its highly penetrating
room loading characteristics...

How a speaker loads the room is critical to the perception that what one is hearing
is not the result of a series of essentially mechanical processes...a kind of suspension
of belief that the mind plays along with because it is so pleasurable to experience it...

Warm Regards -Richard-

[srayle]

Hey, thanks, to all for the suggestions...I know what to do now. Maximizethe Druids natural capabilities and then, if need be, get a sub.
I guess my 'denial' has been in resisting a subwoofer, would rather do without one, and especially don't want to pay $2500 for a Definition at
this point in time, but I think one of the others suggested would probably do just fine for me. Unlike Richard, I feel a sense of incompleteness without that bass foundation.

[fabaudio]

Richard

 Always a pleasure to read your contributions.
 In my 50 odd years as a musician and audiophile ( phool ? ) as far as the reproduction of music goes I've always been obsessively concerned with the midrange. As long as I get the midrange right the rest is, well, just icing on the cake.
 Currently I'm enjoying Super 3BPCR's ( impressions will follow on a separate thread ). Yes, they and Monica2 Dac get the midrange right!

[-Richard-]

Hi fabaudio,

Please let me return the compliment...I always enjoy reading your posts very much...

It is very interesting to hear that you are a professional musician...which I respect
enormously...especially since your ear is tuned quite differently than the average
music lover who may have a somewhat limited exposure to live music and
whose frames of reference can therefore become quite skewered...

I have just ordered a pair of Super 3 Bipole speakers from Louis of Omega Speakers
myself...I suspect that they will do what no other cabinet speaker can hope to do...
load my listening room with the same penetration of sound that my Open Baffle
speakers do so beautifully...which once experienced changes your ideas of the
realism that is possible with pistonic drivers...and there is no going back...

I built my own Clavichord as a young man studying the keyboard from a kit sold
by Zuckermann Harpsichord...it took me several months to put it all together,
weight the keys, double string it with different widths of copper wire, and finally
tune it...I learned to listen to music by learning to tune and then play my Clavichord
over many years...

I await your impressions of the Super 3 BP's with great interest...

Incidentally, Fabaudio...what does the CR stand for?

Warm Regards -Richard-

[darkmoebius]

I know what to do now. Maximizethe Druids natural capabilities and then, if need be, get a sub...Unlike Richard, I feel a sense of incompleteness without that bass foundation.

That's the problem with subs, they aren't necessary until you've had them in your system - then, there's no living without them.

I have a pair of passive subs driven by IcePower 500 modules and it is amazing how much they enhance my overall system performance/perception. (see my entire system & in room measurements here)

But, nothing compares (new amps, preamp, cables, dac, turntable, cartridges) to the benefits in sonic performance of room treatments. I had a situation where prominent room modes (too much bass) actually resulted in too little perceived bass. The standing waves seemed to be causing a massive suckout between 50-70Hz. Everything below that dropped off like a rock. After adding DIY bass traps to reduce bass energy, I actually had more powerful and clean bass performance overall. It seems counter-intuitive, but it is true.

Not only were bass frequencies improved, but everything across the board - sounstage, depth, imaging, mids, highs, etc. Tonality and note decay became better. And I now can easily evalutate the influence of each component on it's own.

I had a chance to check out the Druids for a few hours at the VTV show in Arcadia, CA last month. Less than ideal circumstances, for sure, but it was still possible to get a sense of deep they go and the potential of their wide soundstage.

I would try a couple of bass traps first to see if that helps clean up a deepen response before buying the sub.  A pair in the corners closest to the speakers is a good start. Four are better and much cheaper than the sub. You may still want it afterall, but even it's performnce will be greatly enhanced.

There is no way to truly hear what your system and individual components are doing until you remove influences of the single largest resonator - the room. Get a good test tone system and SPL meter to truly see what your room is like before spending money on anything else.

[fabaudio]

Hi fabaudio,

Please let me return the compliment...I always enjoy reading your posts very much...

It is very interesting to hear that you are a professional musician...which I respect
enormously...especially since your ear is tuned quite differently than the average
music lover who may have a somewhat limited exposure to live music and
whose frames of reference can therefore become quite skewered...

I have just ordered a pair of Super 3 Bipole speakers from Louis of Omega Speakers
myself...I s ...

 I believe you are aware from the thread initiated by jswallac that I bought a demo pair of the original version. The C stands for convertible ( bipole,dipole,monopole ) and the R is for certain premium upgrades Louis adds to a Standard version. BTW my JVC-ES1 also gets the midrange right. Your supposition that the Super 3 Bipoles must be Super 3's on steroids is an understatement!! Once you have them connected pour yourself and Deb a glass of your favorite wine - cue up a reference female voice- Elis Regina perhaps-and make a toast to midrange bliss!!  

[GHM]

Looks like someone else is having a bit of problems with their Zu Tone speaker on Agon.
Zu Tone/Druid Tonal Anomalies

[Gridlock]

Looks like someone else is having a bit of problems with their Zu Tone speaker on Agon.
Zu Tone/Druid Tonal Anomalies

That would be me.  Unless my pair of Tone's are defective, I believe the speakers are very bloated in the upper midrange.  Please read my Audiogon message shown above.  I would like to hear from others as to what they have or have not experienced in this regard.

Thanks,

- Stew

[Ispec1]

As I said earlier I have been using a pair of a friends druids with very good results, so good I now have a pair orderd for myself. I am using them with 2 vandersteen subs although I was getting good bass, as someone else said once you get used to subs you can't go back. They blend seemlessly, with a little loss of resolution in the bass perhaps a speed issue. I have not yet tried different locations with the subs as of yet.
This is only a minor problem compared to the excellent sound I am getting.These will punch you in the gut if your in the mood. Oh, and there is no better way to buy speakers than a 60 day trial in your own room!

[-Richard-]

Hi Fabaudio,

Elis Regina!!!! Now that says volumes about your musical taste...
sophisticated in the extreme...

Elis is one of the greats...her soul and art pour out of her subtle renditions
like ambrosia from the gods...even the angels listen with hushed
expectation each time she sings...

Elis and Tom...with Antonio Carlos Jobim contains several marvelous classics
in her inimical Portuguese...

Thanks for your highly regarded recommendation...I am also interested in Louis's
new forthcoming Hemp 4 1/2 inch drivers which he thinks could be dropped in
to replace the current Fostex drivers in the Super 3 2V Bipole's when they are ready...
just another option one can explore for their tone...depending on amp and inclinations...

Warm Regards -Richard-

[213Cobra]

If it weren't for the big gap in price between Zu's Druid and Definition speakers, I'd say that anyone whose perception of fidelity depends on presence of bass information below 40Hz is really a Definition customer. In a 12" x 12" footprint you get 16Hz - 25kHz, neutrally conveyed. It also solves a number of other minor anomalies not addressed by the Tone and Druid, including a sharp reduction in floor and ceiling effects and an increase in linearity. But it is a $6200 jump from Druids to Defintions.

The Definition is not however usable in a near-field listening configuration whereas the Druid is. In fact what the Definition sacrifices to attain its superiority in scaling and stricter tonal neutrality, is the penetrating intimacy that the Druid and Tone are uniquely capable of. That latter doesn't require a sub and more to the point a sub may compromise it. Where the Druid is particularly strong, 40Hz extension is enough.

The Method sub is the only dynamically consistent subwoofer match to the Druid or Tone that I know of. It mates as perfectly as you can expect a driver sitting in another cabinet not co-located with the primary speaker can be.  For some people hearing a Tone or Druid system with the Method sub is transformative and cannot be reversed. For others, the addition of the Method can be distracting and unecessary, so better off without it.

Do different speaker types, designs and drivers load a room differently, when outputting the same acoustic information? Yes, and it is hard to predict exactly what to expect until you have said speakers in your room. In the case of Zu speakers, the phase coherence and elimination of crossover combined with ultra-efficiency and wide-band combine to stir up consequences elsewhere. It is seldom you can plop Zu speakers into an existing system without coming to the conclusion that the fulcrum for fidelity in said system has shifted from where it was before. Once you get through break-in and understand the holistic environment you have in room + gear, the drivers for perception of fidelity pertinent to you *may* change. Be open to it and you'll be on the home stretch toward your audio objectives. For me, it became clear that the simple lack of a crossover in the meat of the music in a wide-band and tonally accurate speaker shifted the fulcrum of fidelity to the power amp(s). I couldn't get that from other "full-range" driver-derived speakers before, for both sins of commission and omission. It turns out once you stop fighting the pinhole effects of a crossover in a speaker that doesn't sacrifice tonal fidelity, a lot of sources that soak up endless energy in tweaking and audiophilia nervosa are actually just fine. Zu's design spotlights the amp/speaker interaction and makes it easy to resolve.

Phil

[Watson]

213Cobra, your post reads a lot like marketing material.

I looked through all 46 of your prior posts on AudioCircle, and every single one of them has been touting Zu speakers.  Curious.