Sony's new ES Line All-In-One (Digital Power)

enzo · « **Reply #120 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 03:11 pm »

Asked this over at AA, and thought I'd post here. Is the SONY a bit dry or lean through the mids? TIA

Hantra · « **Reply #121 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 03:22 pm »

Dry? Lean?

OMG no!!!! It's the opposite. Very lush. That's one of its strong suits, IMO.

B

randytsuch · « **Reply #122 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 04:03 pm »

Hi guys,
first let me say I have not seen or heard these Sony digital all in ones.

But, after reading their white paper, I did see one compromise they had to make in their design.

They have the low pass filter after the power transistor, that is, they filter the amplified speaker level signal. Most things try to filter at either analog line level, or they filter the digital signal.

There is no analog line level signal in the Sony, and with Sony's design, filtering the digital signal would not help, so they have to filter the speaker signal. That's why they stuck those big torroids on the signal.

Only other comment was a lack of details, but this was written as a marketing tool, not an engineering paper, so I understand why, still they do some hand waving in this paper when they make some claims.

Randy

kent · « **Reply #123 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 04:10 pm »

Quote from: enzo

Asked this over at AA, and thought I'd post here. Is the SONY a bit dry or lean through the mids? TIA

I haven't experienced any sonic signature at all. To my ears, it precisely conveys the character of whichever loudspeakers and source material I pair it with. Adjectives I haven't heard a peep from with good source material and appropriate speakers: harsh, grainy, dry, lean, bright, forward, tizzy.

It has good enuf damping to precisely control my Paradigm Reference Studio 20's excellent mid-bass vented driver which can get sloppy with a poorly damped amp.

It makes my startlingly revealing Intermezzo 2.6 tweeters sing fully as well -- I suspect -- as they are capable. There is nary a transient, a detail, or a microdynamic that is not conveyed correctly; I confirmed this in close comparisons with my Musical Fidelity X-CAN / Sennheiser 580 "pocket reference system", which is electrostatic in its speed and detail.

The Sony hasn't been inclined to conceal any defects in hardware or software, e.g., many of my 1981-1986 redbooks are still quite unlistenable. I might want to hang onto a modest tube integrated with lots of euphonic distortion, or upgrade eventually to a 6th-generation digital amp with DSP parametric EQ, to enjoy those little monsters.

But it does wonderfully with a topflight redbook or SACD source.

Dmason · « **Reply #124 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 04:30 pm »

My excitement lies in the fact that this technology -as applies to audio, is just barely under way, and it rips! A new tangent to explore. An optimized Stan Warren design, etc. Let the boat anchor bunch keep their analogue amps, some sound just great, and heat the room in winter to boot. My prediction: In eighteen months, the Emporer shall have no clothes.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #125 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 04:44 pm »

Those toroidal coils are are part of the low pass filter that virtually all
digital amps require in order to drive a speaker without toasting the tweeter. The mystery is how they sound so good with these parts in the way. If the same low pass filter is put on a conventional amp the deleterious effects are obvious and to be avoided.Sony says the amps have no crossover notch distortion which is a primary cause of leaness
or dryness and also the main culprit when liquidity is missing.If these amps have enough power supply in them they could be very good indeed.
The fan that Harman heard is probably vital to cooling them as they have almost no heat sinking.Little fans are cheaper than big amounts of aluminum.

enzo · « **Reply #126 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 04:58 pm »

Yes the crossover distortion in conventional analog amps may cause leanness, but the eVos have no such problems at crossover yet still sound "lean" - or perhaps, more natural? The eVos aren't thin or bleached sounding like most solid state, yet reviewers still wish for more "presence" in the mid-band. Just hoping these SONYs are not similar sounding...

Brad · « **Reply #127 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 05:06 pm »

$515 shipped is a HECK of a deal.
If the new model is that much better, I can always use this one in a different room....

Let us know what you think AJerry

kent · « **Reply #128 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 05:26 pm »

Quote from: _scotty_

The fan that Harman heard is probably vital to cooling them as they have almost no heat sinking.

Yikes! This is a BIG issue to me. Can anybody definitively confirm or refute this???? I had assumed -- based on how cool my AVD-C70ES runs overall -- that the fan could be disconnected without penalty. I'm using it free-standing (not in a cabinet), with no components on top of it, and it has consistently run cool to the touch.

If the fan must be left on, I doubt I will want to live with this component. I really dislike hearing it running in the background.

Scotty, I hope you're wrong, and I think you might be -- e.g., I know dmason has disconnected the fan on his ZR series digital amps without any problem.

So can anyone authoritatively address this? (I think speculation isn't very useful on this particular issue. Either an expert's assessment, or an owner's experience seems to be called for.)

Als, Does the AVD-C50ES have a fan, too?

_scotty_ · « **Reply #129 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 05:26 pm »

Quote from: enzo

Yes the crossover distortion in conventional analog amps may cause leanness, but the eVos have no such problems at crossover yet still sound "lean" - or perhaps, more natural? The eVos aren't thin or bleached sounding like most solid state, yet reviewers still wish for more "presence" in the mid-band. Just hoping these SONYs are not similar sounding...

Hi enzo,All Tripath technology based amps have a deadband setting that determines the time in nanoseconds between one output device turning on and the other device turning off.For some discrete amount of time measured in nanoseconds the speaker isn't driven by either output device. On an oscilloscope this appears as classic crossover notch distortion. In comercial products this deadband time is set for a longer period to insure a larger safe operating area for driving nasty audiophile
loudspeaker loads. Ask the BelCanto techs where the deadband time is set on their amps.The newer modules can be as high as 120ns. My custom amp is set for 65ns. It makes a big difference in liquidity and perceived
leaness. Scotty

_scotty_ · « **Reply #130 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 06:00 pm »

Quote from: kent

Yikes! This is a BIG issue to me. Can anybody definitively confirm or refute this???? I had assumed -- based on how cool my AVD-C70ES runs overall -- that the fan could be disconnected without penalty. I'm using it free-standing (not in a cabinet), with no components on top of it, and it has consistently run cool to the touch.

If the fan must be left on, I doubt I will want to live with this component. I really dislike hearing it running in the background.

It is unlikely that SONY put that fan in there if wasn't needed to insure the devices relability.This product was built by bean counters after all.There is probably no extra capacity anywhere in the unit. Exactly where is the fan located and where is the exhaust coming out. Acoustic foam could be positioned near the player/amp and dampening material applied to the enclosure. Soft footers or Darumas under it mght make it quieter.
Scotty

enzo · « **Reply #131 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 06:01 pm »

Thanks Scotty! Now i wonder if this parameter may be optimised/adjusted in the new SONYs... My S805s would present a far less difficult load than the average electrostat for instance.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #132 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 06:16 pm »

Quote from: enzo

Thanks Scotty! Now i wonder if this parameter may be optimised/adjusted in the new SONYs... My S805s would present a far less difficult load than the average electrostat for instance.

The New Sonys have had a non Tripath approach taken and do not exhibit this distortion. Until Tripath fixes this aspect of their design they are obsolete.I have had my amp less than a year and it may not sound as good as the SONY.Oh well. Thats progress.Enzo have you seen the impedence curve on your electrostats.What does it look like above 10kHz.
Is it above 4ohms.Eletrostatic designs typically have a falling impedence with increasing frequency and appear increasingly capacitive.Not an easy load.

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #133 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 07:12 pm »

The fan on my c70ES is turned off.

The fan, to begin with, is very low noise. I have extremely good hearing and doesn't in the least bother me even during quiet passages.

I don't need the fan in mine as the Sony unit runs "cool" without it. I found the fan flow to be unecessary. I don't see how this little fan can alter more than 1-2 degrees Celcius in the unit...........If the unit falters with that little temp change, then the unit ain't worth it's salt--know what I mean?

The unit has performed flawlessly with or without fan (btw, my unit has nothing on top of it and is below my 34" flat screen in one of the bedrooms).

The option to have the fan on or not is yours to make. It's still nice that a fan is implemented for people that live in VERY hot climates. (I still don't think this little fan can do anything of note with temps. I tweak electronics all the time and have a good grasp with fan flows and temps. I'm not worried in the least with the fan off)

sharper · « **Reply #134 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 07:32 pm »

This may be a stupid question and idea but...

I'm wondering if with the emergence of:

1) digital components like the Sony AVD series, and

2) room correction technologies like that built in to the Pioneer receivers (or I guess in the TACT gear too)...

could we also see the emergence of a "digital crossover" (between the mid and tweeter in a 2-way, for example) inside the reciever such that it allows for speakers without crossovers?

For example, if you had a biwirable/biampable two-way speaker, you could use the room correction software to analyze the performance of each driver on its own from the listening position. The room correction software would create an algorithm for that speaker in that room to produce a flat response...or whatever response you want...a big fat midbass. Or if Sony ES, for example, made a crossover-less loudspeaker, they could include a few digital crossover algorithms for that speaker into their digital receivers.

When playing back music, movie, or whatever, the receiver would take the source (digital) signal and process it through the room correction / crossover algorithm, split the woofer/midrange signal from the tweeter signal and power them separately or power them together.

I realize crossover design is one of the key skills of any speaker designer...and this would remove one of the fundamental elements of speaker design...but maybe Sony ES, for example, could put out a crossover-less speaker designed to work this kind of product. Again, maybe it's a stupid idea.

It came to mind because I realized that one of the more transparent speakers I've heard is the Reference 3A De Capos which run without a crossover on the woofer. I would think the lack of a crossover has a lot to do with its transparency.

Anyway, I've been following this thread from the beginning and am pretty interested in these new Sony units.

kent · « **Reply #135 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 08:41 pm »

Quote from: sharper

This may be a stupid question and idea but...I'm wondering if with the emergence of: 1) digital components like the Sony AVD series, and 2) room correction technologies like that built in to the Pioneer receivers (or I guess in the TACT gear too)...could we also see the emergence of a "digital crossover" (between the mid and tweeter in a 2-way, for example) inside the reciever such that it allows for speakers without crossovers? For example, if you had a biwirable/biampable two-way speaker ...

I've been waiting and hoping for that. I'd want

6 bands of parametric EQ for each channel (Sony provided digital parametric EQ as long back as 1990, in a $1.5K digital preamp I owned, maybe called the TA2000ES? not sure),

separable crossovers for each channel including 4 different sub channels, all with adjustable slopes,

infinite phase adjustment for each channel (sony's provided several discrete settings for bass phase in their new AV ES receivers).

I'm not yet convinced automatic room correction will improve on what I could do with all that, but I'm happy to be convinced!

I might never get my wish list, but is there a simpler version around the corner? I think the writing is on the wall...

Heck, various very mainstream car stereos (including a $150 pioneer) already provide multiple bands of digital parametric EQ. Who woulda thunk that 10 yrs ago?

Of course, all that DSP could sound terrible.

kent · « **Reply #136 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 08:47 pm »

Quote from: TheeeChosenOne

The fan on my c70ES is turned off. The fan, to begin with, is very low noise. I have extremely good hearing and doesn't in the least bother me even during quiet passages. ...

Thank you, Theee. Very encouraging. As for me, I find the fan quite noticeable, but my room may be smaller than yours. It's most noticeable when music isn't on. Then, in an otherwise silent room, there's me and my sony shadow (intermittently). You don't find this?

A question: you said you have the fan "turned off". I just want to check that I haven't missed some menu function to "turn off" the fan. Did you mean you have it physically disconnected? If so, does the disconnection require any permanent changes -- do you have to break a soldered connection, or is it just a matter of pulling a removeable plug from its socket?

kent · « **Reply #137 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 08:54 pm »

Quote from: _scotty_

Exactly where is the fan located and where is the exhaust coming out. Acoustic foam could be positioned near the player/amp and dampening material applied to the enclosure. Soft footers or Darumas under it mght make it quieter...

It is located in the upper right corner of back panel. Wait, let me be clearer than that: I am referring to 'stage right' from the player's perspective.

In other words, if you're look straight at the front of the unit, put your hand on the left upper corner of the front , follow that to the top edge of the back of the unit, and there's the fan.

I doubt footers or internal damping would make any difference. The noise is just blade noise emitted by the exhaust port. But a little acoustic cube over the port could work. But I'm still hoping I can just rip the little sucker from its socket.

randytsuch · « **Reply #138 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 09:02 pm »

Quote from: kent

I've been waiting and hoping for that. I'd want
6 bands of parametric EQ for each channel (Sony provided digital parametric EQ as long back as 1990, in a $1.5K digital preamp I owned, maybe called the TA2000ES? not sure),
separable crossovers for each channel including 4 different sub channels, all with adjustable slopes,
infinite phase adjustment for each channel (sony's provided several discrete settings for bass phase in their new AV ES receivers).
I'm not y ...

Kent,
Check this out
http://www.behringer.com/02_products/prodindex.cfm?id=DCX2496&lang=eng
I did not check it exactly against your wish list, but I think it will be pretty close. I have also know of people modding the behringers, with good results.

Randy

sharper · « **Reply #139 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 09:08 pm »

Quote from: randytsuch

Kent,
Check this out
http://www.behringer.com/02_products/prodindex.cfm?id=DCX2496&lang=eng
I did not check it exactly against your wish list, but I think it will be pretty close. I have also know of people modding the behringers, with good results.

Randy

FYI, to anyone interested...You can read more about the Behringer 2496 on the Newform Reseach site under What's New -> August 2003. John Meyer of Newform recommends using it with the new Panasonic receiver with digital amplification - SA-XR45. It was his comments on the Panasonic which got me interested in the Sony AVDs.