Sony's new ES Line All-In-One (Digital Power)

Jay S · « **Reply #100 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 01:47 am »

Thanks for the clarification. I'll wait for a few months and see what gets introduced here in Hong Kong. If I see an all-in-1 with S-Master Pro for a good price then I'll jump on it.

I'm psyched that these Sony's sound close to a good Tripath amp. I don't know about you guys, but I don't see the need to clutter up bedrooms, offices and dens with up to 3-4 boxes (source, dac, pre, amp) plus several interconnects and power cables when a single box and just 1 power cable can produce excellent sound. And, the Sony will be much much cheaper. Viva la revolucion!

Brad · « **Reply #101 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 02:27 am »

Hopefully the new version will have a better remote.
It also has the 6th amplifier channel (in the bizarre event I run cable for a rear center channel)

Bring it on, Sony!

Sa-dono · « **Reply #102 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 05:23 am »

Quote from: kendrid

Here is a link that lists quite a few digital chip manufacturers, along with comments about the pros and cons of each chipset.

http://www.classd.org/oem_products/oem.htm

The Sony was not liked by them, but it also states that they have the 'S-Master', not the 'S-Master pro'.

I recommend going to the root of the site and looking at the Q&A. It is interesting..
"Obtaining acceptable performance (THD<0.1%, hardly enough to classify as a digital amplifier) is complicated and expensive."

The Tripath got a pretty mediocre review by them as well. Why all the hoopla about Tripath as such? And why would Sony want to emulate the Tripath if the performance really isn't that great?

Also, in regards to the Sony, they say that the unit converts DSD to PCM. Not exactly desirable in my mind. Many of the units up until now that have gone this route have used a brick-wall filter, that decreased the point and fidelity of high-res material. Have there been any third-party measurements taken on the Sony in this regard?

enzo · « **Reply #103 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 05:53 am »

As in the cut-off frequency and whether it's adjustable??

Brad · « **Reply #104 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 12:02 pm »

Where did you read that the Sony converts DSD to PCM?

I thought that was something that the cheaper Pioneer universal players did, not the Sony.

One of the attractions(to me) of the Sony we're discussing was the lack of any conversion between SACD and the amplifier stage.

BrunoB · « **Reply #105 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 12:14 pm »

Quote from: Sa-dono

Also, in regards to the Sony, they say that the unit converts DSD to PCM. Not exactly desirable in my mind. Many of the units up until now that have gone this route have used a brick-wall filter, that decreased the point and fidelity of high-res material. Have there been any third-party measurements taken on the Sony in this regard?

Quote

kendrid wrote:
Here is a link that lists quite a few digital chip manufacturers, along with comments about the pros and cons of each chipset.

http://www.classd.org/oem_products/oem.htm

I dont't think that the information provides by the link above is correct. From my understanding of the Sony white paper (see p. 7 of this thread),

Quote

The S-Master 1-bit pulse stream has much in common with the Direct
Stream Digital signal that Sony developed for Super Audio CD.

there is no DSD to PCM conversion, actually it is more likely to be an upsampling of PCM to DSD (this is probably why redbook CD sound so good on this unit). And the switching frequency is the DSD 2.8 MHz and not 768Khz as stated in www.classd.org

Bruno

8thnerve · « **Reply #106 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 12:43 pm »

Quote from: BrunoB

I dont't think that the information provides by the link above is correct. From my understanding of the Sony white paper (see p. 7 of this thread),

Bruno

I would have to agree. I'm not sure who is writing this stuff, but it does not seem to be an expert without bias. All the ratings are 4-6 except one or two that he likes which have 9 and 10. And rating how "clever" their design is, pshaw! This is also a person who states that digital sucks and analog is better, so it is hard to believe that this information is objective.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #107 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 12:50 pm »

That's sorta what I was thinking. Maybe the site shoulda been called "I Hate Digital Amps."

audiojerry · « **Reply #108 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 01:42 pm »

Quote

I'm pretty sure I'm getting the Carver from Nathan.

Who is Nathan, and please don't make me check back through this whole thread to find out.

If it's Nathan of 8th Nerve, is he a Carver Pro dealer?

Hantra · « **Reply #109 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 02:07 pm »

Quote

If it's Nathan of 8th Nerve, is he a Carver Pro dealer?

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4796

That should help answer your question. . .

_scotty_ · « **Reply #110 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 07:56 pm »

Has anyone seen the THD+noise on these units.The Sony receivers look
pretty sad except for cheapest 100watt /ch at .09THD a non S-Master amp section. Probably Tripath. These figures if they are reflecting noise as part of the measurement might be giving a falsly higher total distortion number. If the THD figures are real They need to be at least an order of magnitude lower.Distortion is not our friend.

kendrid · « **Reply #111 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 08:02 pm »

Quote from: _scotty_

sad except for cheapest 100watt /ch at .09THD a non S-Master amp section. Probably Tripath. [/size]

The 1000ES (the cheapest one) uses solid state amps. Only the 2000ES and up use digital amps.

audiojerry · « **Reply #112 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 09:36 pm »

Thanks everyone for making this a great topic and instructional too.
I went to this link: http://www.docs.sony.com/release/STRDA3000ES_TWP.pdf
and really enjoyed the explanation. It explains things well to the non-EE types, but I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough to challenge any Sony's claims.

I'd love to have Hugh, Curt, DVV, and some of our other resident guru's read it, and pick apart, if they can.

I'm still not convinced that the signal that reaches the speakers is not in the analog domain. In reading pages 5 and 6 of the document, it seems to show that the LPF stage is working with an analog waveform.

In any event, I'm picking up a demo unit of the AVD-C70 from a local dealer for $595. Is that a good price? Well, I have 14 days to decide if I want to keep it. The dealer has decided not to restock with the newer models because sales were not good. He felt that most consumers do not take consder it a serious high-end product because everything is in one box. I will be sure to post my findings on how it compares to my referernce system: ARC VT200, Audio Valve Eklipse preamp, Modwright P-3A, P-1A, Monolithic PS, Classe CDT transport, and all the pricey cabling. Both will be driving the same speakers using redbook cd playback.

Dmason · « **Reply #113 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 09:45 pm »

Here is what I did: Do a google, "Sony AVD C70ES price"

this way every entry will include a price. I got mine for $485 at Authorized Electronics. They were prompt and courteous, and I love it. Let it play for a week.

Sony AVD C70ES--Usher X719 monitor (ScanSpeak 7 2 way clone)

yukiginger · « **Reply #114 on:** 18 Sep 2003, 09:46 pm »

Audiojerry, I just ordered the 70 today at www.electronicsjunction.com, per another board member's advice for $519 to my door. They are authorized dealers so the 5 year warranty is fine, but I did not check out their return policy. I am sure if it is defective they will take it back, but for lesser reasons, who knows (check it out). I am planning to replace an Anthem Integrated 2, which I have for 2-channel, and coupled with a HT receiver for my HT. Part of the reason is for convenience. I am quite hopeful that it gives me what I am looking for. If it does I can sell off some components and be ahead.

Mark

Sa-dono · « **Reply #115 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 02:39 am »

Quote from: 8thnerve

Quote from: BrunoB
I dont't think that the information provides by the link above is correct. From my understanding of the Sony white paper (see p. 7 of this thread),

Bruno

I would have to agree. I'm not sure who is writing this stuff, but it does not seem to be an expert without bias. All the ratings are 4-6 except one or two that he likes which have 9 and 10. And rating how "clever" their design is, pshaw! This is also a person who states that digital sucks and analog is better, so it is hard to believe that this information is objective.

Thanks for the info guys! I figured it seemed a little fishy. I haven't really done much research on these units yet. I'm still waiting for more reviews here before I want to try out the digital commercial and/or pro offerings.

audiojerry · « **Reply #116 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 01:19 pm »

I picked up the demo unit from the dealer, and I've got several cd's on repeat going 24/7. I will give my impressions next week. The fan is a bit noisy, the remote is a bit complex, but I'm amazed at so many features packed into this all-in-one unit.

Thanks everyone for great advice and suggestions.

Dmason, how do you like the Usher? Is it up there with the big buck monitors?

Will an all-in-one $500+ unit be able to compete $20,000+ worth of separates? ......... Stay tuned

Dmason · « **Reply #117 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 01:27 pm »

Audiojerry, that is a fantastic and thoughtful combo you have there. I cannot wait for your input and comparison. Serious competition there.

The Ushers are about as good as a monitor can get, subjectively. They have cloned Scanspeak drivers, so they could be considered to be ProAc 2.5 standmount speakers. Many consider the Usher drivers as superior over all, and the cones are from the same manufacturer as SS. Bottom line, the Usher. Sony AVD is a very cost effective and BIG sounding system, which I listen to every day. This is a $1400 stereo of the high end sound...

audiojerry · « **Reply #118 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 02:49 pm »

I would love it if the AVD even came remotely close to satisfying me. As much as I love the sound I now enjoy with my current system, I continue to be bothered by how much money I have invested in it, and the cost to operate, as well as the eventual cost of tube replacement. I am also worried that the digital amplification technology will soon mature and take over the market, rendering my components worthless.

If things turn out favorably, I am hoping I still have some time to get some money for my current system. If the AVD's are good, but not quite up to the caliber I want, I might consider moving next to the Carver Pro, but I like the idea of all-in-one box, avoiding A to D conversion, and keeping everything in the digital domain like Sony has accomplished. I am speculating that the Sony AVD will have some noise problems from all the circuitry and RF, which will degrade the potential that is really inherent in this elegant design. We shall see.

BTW: I think Scotty made some interesting points.

Hantra · « **Reply #119 on:** 19 Sep 2003, 03:10 pm »

Quote

I am also worried that the digital amplification technology will soon mature and take over the market, rendering my components worthless.

Heh. . . Well, IMO the opposite will happen. Digital amps will probably take over the market, but that will actually render analog amplifiers, and components more valuable and collectible. In 5+ years, analog amps will probably be rendered to ultra-expensive ultra-niche designs by a few small guys who will resist, and people out there like Mark Levinson who'll say that digital amps somehow intrinsically "harm" humankind, and that you should buy one of his $4 Chinese Integrateds for $4,500 instead.

That's my prediction anyway.

B