Sony's new ES Line All-In-One (Digital Power)

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #180 on:** 21 Sep 2003, 10:16 am »

Dmason will probably clue us in when he gets to use the peice for awhile, but from the literature it looks like the 6 ch analog inputs are passed along untouched. So a guy quite likely could use it to bi/tri amp speakers, or biamp & run a pair of subs. Although you'd need to split the signal or have an x-over ahead of the reciever, of course.

sfdoddsy · « **Reply #181 on:** 21 Sep 2003, 11:40 am »

Unfortunately I've checked the literature now and appears that the multichannel input is only a 5.1 one, so I'd only get 5 channels at the speaker taps, plus a subwoofer preout, which is no good.

Unless I'm wrong?

Steve

Dmason · « **Reply #182 on:** 21 Sep 2003, 01:35 pm »

sfdoddsy, you and I are on the same tangent. This looks like a great way to punch the ticket for active amplification. Please email with more about the dbx crossover implementation...

I havent bothered yet to have a look at the Pana manual to figure out how to get rid of all the DSP bullshit, like Dr George was referring to at the Newform Research site. I can say that upon closer inspection, it actually has a nice fit and finish. I have dropped my Pana cell phone maaany times and it runs great after two years. Right now the little curio has been on a high idle hooked up to some speakers, and later on today after 18 hours, we shall see. the remote is flat out better than the Sony I can say that.

The Flying Mole people got back to me to say that all their ICs and PSUs, everything was developed by themselves, with Matsushita as a development partner. I find this quite interesting because, Matsushita was a major silent development partner with Tripath, and I would bet a tooth that their new ultra efficient OTL PSU (read cheap) bears more than a passing resemblance to whatever it is that Tripath has quite recently come up with. It is a small pond in the co development/capital funding world of microelectronics, I know to be a fact, due to required costs and economies of scale. I would say the Flying Mole shares a common genetic with aspects of latest generation tripath stuff. Their SRP is quoted as $349 per limpet, so leaving plenty of wiggle room for one to order a pair of these mollusks...

sfdoddsy · « **Reply #183 on:** 21 Sep 2003, 02:02 pm »

I replied briefly about the Driverack in the other thread, and linked to my website. Email me at steve@doddsy.net if you want really detailed info about what these xovers can and can't do.

Regarding the Panasonic, if you are feeding it an analog signal just do it into the 5.1 inputs and there will be no processing at all, according to the manual.

However, I don't think I could get six channels out, so it's not really what I'd need. Easy bi-amp though.

Cheers

Steve

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #184 on:** 21 Sep 2003, 08:55 pm »

Very cheap way to digital biamp a stereo pair. I had to watch the mighty Vikes polish off the happless Lions, but now that the game is over I'll probably check Best Buy to see if they still carry the Panny.

Hmmm...shopping for gear at BB, pretty funny!

Dmason · « **Reply #185 on:** 21 Sep 2003, 09:13 pm »

Not "still" carrying the Panasonic, as these are brand new. Look at the model number XA25, this is the same one with less junk involved, I believe they are around $240.

I have been listening to it, and you know what? -It is starting to sound really really nice. It is a switching amp with a dithering-to-match-the-signal architecture, and switching Fq of up to 5MHz, where the Tripath is about 750kHz, so, similar to the Tripath design in those respects. Very smooth and musical, great bass, hard to think of this Phat sound coming from this innocuous little black box. Thing has a ballsy, sweet sound...Looks more like something you might use to put amps ON. Nice remote, too, I will be keeping this as well.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #186 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 12:19 am »

BB & Ultimate only have the cheaper '25, but they want $300 for it...a bit high, as you can get the same piece from J&R for $240 w/ a pair of cheapo 'phones thrown in. The '25 has cheapish binding posts for the front L & R, with very cheap speaker terminal clips for the other channels. But it does have a 5.1 input, which surpised me.

Does the more expensive XA-45 have binding posts all around?

A little looking today unearthed a nice looking Pioneer Elite 6 x 100 W reciever w/all digital amps, too. I'm surprised at how prevalent digital amplification is becoming.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #187 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 12:40 am »

Dmason,Thanks for posting the the links to these products it makes for facinating reading. I expressed my concern about a lack of heat sinking in these new products to a designer friend of mine and he said most people don't use more than 5watts max most of the time.With this in mind the heatsinks probably aren't undersized unless you try to drive a pair of Apogee Scintillas.His expressed concern was about severe limitations in the stored energy available to reproduce the lowest bass frequencies.The caps in the switching power supply are adequate to suppress ripple without
any problems at low powers. Problems will no doubt be encountered when
attempting to reproduce low frequencies at high volumes.The small inexpensive capacitors used in the switching power supplies cannot
store enough energy to properly reproduce a sustained low note at higher volumes.These caps are no doubt at the top Ric's list of items to upgrade first. This perhaps one reason Dmason likes the sound of his Carvers and their bigger power supply a little more than his new SONY.

Dmason · « **Reply #188 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 01:15 am »

Thought I would weigh in and explode the above myth alittle bit; The Tripath design as exists in the ZR amps is considered to be a couple generations away from what the Sony, TI, Flying Mole, and now, current Tripath iterations are all about, the difference being ultra efficient power supplies, and high switching frequencies; the current Tripath complete amp chipset for example, requires no transformer of any kind. Your friend's concern about heatsinks is misplaced: there is no heat to speak of. I used my ZR run flat out at high output at a party for four hours, and it was only warm to the touch. And that is the OLD way of doing things.

Make no mistake, --and I think my new Sony AVD alumni will agree: the Sony can rock. Digital amps seem to display tube like headroom, as in Big Watts, and there is certainly no lack of bottom end on tap; I listened to an entire Virgil Fox album today at truly reference levels, while the others were out, my Coincident PEII's have an F3<30Hz, and there was no loss of information about the 32' pedal pipes drone on the Tabernacle organ while the Bach counterpoint rattled on!! Synth bass allows it to pull out even more information and very well defined stuff as well. ex: analogue synthesizers sound analogue because I can hear the crackling of voltage controlled oscillators. It gives me goosebumps. The Sony has goosebump factor in spades....I prefer the ZR amps because THOSE chips exhibit increasing distortion with rising frequencies, mimicking tube amps; YMMV, but its because I am a tube-o-phile.

sharper · « **Reply #189 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 02:31 am »

We have it all wrong...

Check out the new (to me, anyway) http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pe/article/0,,2076_4159_48023,00.html"> Pioneer 500-watt digital sound projector with 254 individual speakers, each with its own compact digital amplifier.

I'm going to post all my gear for sale now. Bye. (I'm not sure which emoticon to pick.)

sharper · « **Reply #190 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 02:37 am »

...and it's only $40,000 according to this article.

Cool, nonetheless. http://www.space.com/techtoday/tech_today_pdsp-1.html"> Tech Today gives a review

sfdoddsy · « **Reply #191 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 12:14 pm »

Quote from: Dmason

I have been listening to it, and you know what? -It is starting to sound really really nice. It is a switching amp with a dithering-to-match-the-signal architecture, and switching Fq of up to 5MHz, where the Tripath is about 750kHz, so, similar to the Tripath design in those respects. Very smooth and musical, great bass, hard to think o ...

Are you listening through the digital inputs? If so, could you do me favor and plug an analog source into a couple of the 5.1 inputs and see what that sounds like.

Specifically, I'm very curious to see if you can hear any differences or artifacts at really low listening levels compared to higher ones.

Thanks

Steve

sfdoddsy · « **Reply #192 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 01:30 pm »

One other very nifty possibility strikes me for the two channel crowd. The Behringer DEQ2496 is a very comprehensive machine that offers 10 bands of parametric EQ per channel, 1/3 octave auto-room EQ, dynamic EQ, 1/6 octave RTA and a bunch more.

It also has digital ins and outs. And costs $300.

Combine one of these with your CD player and the little Panasonic and you have an all digital room EQ chain for $600 (assuming you have a CD player).

Not bad.

Steve

Dmason · « **Reply #193 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 01:49 pm »

All input feeds sound pretty much the same to these ears. Yup.

What is clear, is microdynamics, -once again, represented very well at low levels, specifically nylon string guitar, that certain resonance, ...there it is in spades, at very low listening levels. I think the Panasonic is a winner here, and I would not be ashamed to use this with some very uptown equipment. the Behringer with this thing would be a no brainer for a seriously comprehensive rig which can power about any speaker you care to attach to it.

Dr George is not kidding when he says he had a hard time looking at this little box and equating it with what he heard. Sweet, liquid, dynamic, the sound of bottomless power at higher levels, it passed the 'Gladiator' test swimmingly. I love ALL these amps. They just hand it all right back to you in spades...

audiojerry · « **Reply #194 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 03:09 pm »

Sorry, but I need to temper the overwhelming enthusiam somewhat.

I promised to burn-in my C70ES for a week before passing any judgements, but I couldn't help myself. I did some serious listening and comparing last night after keeping the unit playing 24/7 since Thursday afternoon, so it had about 72 hours, and it was a demo unit. I will provide a complete review after 200+ hours.

I think the C70 is a tremendous bargain, and you only need to add great speakers and wire to have a very nice 2 channel system (my only goal).
If you want movies and multi channel it's an even bigger bargain.

To sum it up briefly, the Sony adheres to the virtue: First, do no harm.
The Sony does not do anything that harms or distracts from the music. It does not get between the music and the listener. This is an extremely important point. I've listened to many expensive high-end systems that did interfere with the listening experience, and sometimes chased me out of the room. The Sony does not do this.

On the other hand, the C70 is far from 'reference' quality, at least as far as my 'reference' system is concerned. I will get into the reasons when I post my review. If the quality of the C70 changes after 200+ hours, I will definitely point that out. But at this point, if you are considering dumping your personal reference system because you think the Sony and other digital amps are the future, well they may be the "future", but my experience with the C70 says it is not the "present". Audition first if you can.

However, the individual must ask himself, "Is it worth it to me to spend thousands of dollars more to enjoy my recordings?" After listening to the C70, I am still pondering that question, but I've already taken a bite of the "high-end" apple, and I'm afraid that accepting anything less will be too difficult for me. If you are a relative newcomer to the high-end, it might be best to throw that poison apple away, and be happy with a product like the Sony.

hoxuanduc · « **Reply #195 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 04:14 pm »

Jerry,

Sure one can find faults with the unit. Couple of things to keep in mind though:

- If one has $400 to spend for a CD player and an integrated amp, what else even come close in the traditional analog paradigm? At $800? At $1600? That has not even considered the multi-channel capability of the unit!
- Absolutely phenomenal WAF! I originally bought the AVD-S50ES for my wife, and couldn't believe the sound quality for the money.
- With this type of all-in-one approach, the marginal return is even more absurd!
- Like you said, it's possible to spend a lot more money, yet not get as good a sound (Those colored "reference" systems). Your reference system was arrived at after considerable investment in time, money, trials and errors.

I think once modders get to play of this (Ric Shultz is considering it), it's possible to get reference quality for a very reasonable sum!

audiojerry · « **Reply #196 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 04:25 pm »

I don't disagree, Hoxanduc.
Like I said, if you haven't bitten the forbben apple, count your blessings, and you can be more than satisfied with the Sony.

Dmason · « **Reply #197 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 05:02 pm »

I have taken some big bites out of the forbidden fruit over the years, and what makes me happy is the VALUE here. One has to remember that the sound of our new toys will improve over the course of about 60 days. That they sound as good as they do right out of the gate is heartening. It represents what may happen IN the future of audio. ie: High quality integrated circuits within all in one systems. A new design paradigm. There is no hassling or cost associated with ancillary equipment, there are audiophile ideals implemented here in terms of simplicity and short signalpaths, and to these ears, it shows. When mated to outstanding and musical speaker systems the effect is stunning. Someone reading this and just starting out, or assembling something new, I would most strongly suggest buying into one of these systems, and then examining what can be had in the speaker realm for the balance, and buy the very best they could afford, preferably gently used. With a larger budget, one could sport for some tremendous speakers, and leave a few bucks for any one of these all in one types. THen, I think, you would have a formidible "reference" system. No matter what anyone says, I will always believe that the speakers are the single most important part of any sound system, and the component which represents the most bang for the buck. If I had to start over tomorrow, this is exactly what I would do, and be done with it, for good! Just another subjective opinion from a horse trader.

enzo · « **Reply #198 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 06:34 pm »

• DC Phase Linearizer
• Discrete Output Transistors
• Toroidal Low Pass Filter
• Two-Stage Pulse Power Supply

None of these features are in the model you're auditioning. I think the C70 uses op-amps for the output rather than FETs, and by the looks of the toroidals, it seems SONY has been "modding" their own unit! If the C70 sounds that good already, the C700/S500s bode very well indeed...

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #199 on:** 22 Sep 2003, 06:52 pm »

AudioJerry,
Glad to hear another positive voice in the chorus.

As an "old-timer" to this SONY unit, wait until the 300-400 hour mark..........I'm also not the first one to say that these Sony units continue to improve and improve and improve AFTER several hundred hours of break-in!

They already sound fantastic at the beginning but they just continue to surprise.

Happy listening!

P.S. Not to sidetrack or thread crap. But what really is "reference" quality? One's reference quality can easily not be someone else's cup of tea. Like a Chef spicing up a dish, each audiophile tweaks their system to their wants and needs.............I'm happy to see such high quality all-in-one systems hitting the market. They take a lot of the guess-work, time, expense, and stressful tears of tweaking. Of course, at this anally-retentive forum, many hobbyists here wouldn't have it any other way!