[Danny Richie]

Danny,

I understand the specs on the Neo 10 say they go down to 150hz. Not sure how
powerful they are at 150hz.

I have heard of people using the Neo 10 down to 200,250 and 300 hz, without too much trouble.
(At low/medium listening levels, not rock concert level.)

From what I have gleaned in information, is that they go down in SPL dramatically when used singularly, down around 150hz to 300hz. Obviously using eight Neo 10's would change the lower frequencies SPL. But, most people can't afford the cost of eight Neo 10's.

What if a person was to use two NEO 10's with a single NEO 3, MTM configuration, open baffle, 12" wide X 48" tall.

If you used two Neo 10's and crossed them with the Neo 3 at 250hz, that should give a person enough SPL at that lower range, wouldn't it ?

thanks..

How low they play in an open baffle depends on the baffle shape. 

The response does not go down dramatically or any at all when using a single unit. They produce a very flat response.

Two NEO 10's with a single NEO 3, MTM configuration, open baffle, 12" wide X 48" tall would not work well at all for several reasons.

First off the Neo 10's need a wide baffle to play down low, however a baffle any wider than the diaphragm itself disrupts the response. It is a bit of a catch 22. The upper ranges must have a small baffle. The same goes for the Neo 3 in an open baffle.

Also, if you run two of the Neo 10's in parallel then the standard Neo 3 or pdr version will not be able to reach the SPL level of the Neo 10's. There will be an output mismatch.

[Tyson]

How low they play in an open baffle depends on the baffle shape. 

The response does not go down dramatically or any at all when using a single unit. They produce a very flat response.

Two NEO 10's with a single NEO 3, MTM configuration, open baffle, 12" wide X 48" tall would not work well at all for several reasons.

First off the Neo 10's need a wide baffle to play down low, however a baffle any wider than the diaphragm itself disrupts the response. It is a bit of a catch 22. The upper ranges must have a small baffle. The same goes for the Neo 3 in an open baffle.

Also, if you run two of the Neo 10's in parallel then the standard Neo 3 or pdr version will not be able to reach the SPL level of the Neo 10's. There will be an output mismatch.

Is this why L frames (ala the wedge), work so well?  The increase baffle area while allowing the front baffle to stay narrow.

[Danny Richie]

Is this why L frames (ala the wedge), work so well?  The increase baffle area while allowing the front baffle to stay narrow.

They increase the front to back separation, but yes. In some cases it is the only way for them to work. A U shape sets up a cavity resonance within the U.

[bladesmith]

How low they play in an open baffle depends on the baffle shape. 

The response does not go down dramatically or any at all when using a single unit. They produce a very flat response.

Two NEO 10's with a single NEO 3, MTM configuration, open baffle, 12" wide X 48" tall would not work well at all for several reasons.

First off the Neo 10's need a wide baffle to play down low, however a baffle any wider than the diaphragm itself disrupts the response. It is a bit of a catch 22. The upper ranges must have a small baffle. The same goes for the Neo 3 in an open baffle.

Also, if you run two of the Neo 10's in parallel then the standard Neo 3 or pdr version will not be able to reach the SPL level of the Neo 10's. There will be an output mismatch.

Danny,

So, one NEO 10 per NEO 3 is best. for proper SPL's ?

How would you implement them together in an Open Baffle design ?

It seems like it would make a nice set up, a NEO3 with a NEO 10 in a Open Baffle, with a seperate  sub/woofer for each side. Maybe a set of those flat packs, with two ten" drivers in each.

Smith

 

[Ric Schultz]

Another option would be to use 2 Neo 10s (lower distortion, more dynamic) in parallel (4 ohm load) mounted sideways and above them run the Hawthorne Audio 700hz AMT.  The Hawthorne is 97 db so would be the same as two Neo 10s or slightly more (you could use a small value AudioPath resistor to pad if needed).  A friend is running his Hawthorne's at 700hz with just a 12 db per octave x-over (modified Behringer X-over) but he is just in the beginning of tweaking (he loves it!!!!).  He is also going to try higher slopes and lower x-over points.  Darrel at Hawthorne thinks the AMT can go to 500hz with 24 db per octave.  When I get my active x-over working my friend will loan me his Hawthorne AMTs and I will try it with two Neo 10s using my new Class A amps on both the Neos and Hawthorne.  I bet it will be killer.  I bet it will be way better than one Neo 10 and one Neo 3 (my current set up).  I will find out, for sure.

[Tyson]

Another option would be to use 2 Neo 10s (lower distortion, more dynamic) in parallel (4 ohm load) mounted sideways and above them run the Hawthorne Audio 700hz AMT.  The Hawthorne is 97 db so would be the same as two Neo 10s or slightly more (you could use a small value AudioPath resistor to pad if needed).  A friend is running his Hawthorne's at 700hz with just a 12 db per octave x-over (modified Behringer X-over) but he is just in the beginning of tweaking (he loves it!!!!).  He is also going to try higher slopes and lower x-over points.  Darrel at Hawthorne thinks the AMT can go to 500hz with 24 db per octave.  When I get my active x-over working my friend will loan me his Hawthorne AMTs and I will try it with two Neo 10s using my new Class A amps on both the Neos and Hawthorne.  I bet it will be killer.  I bet it will be way better than one Neo 10 and one Neo 3 (my current set up).  I will find out, for sure.

As someone that is sensitive to phase, I find that the advantage of using a driver like the Neo10 is that it can cover almost the entire midrange by itself.  If you can go from 300zh to 3khz (or even better, 5khz), you start to get some of that coherent goodness that "single driver" fans love. 

[Ric Schultz]

There are lots of great speakers that cross over a midrange at 4-500hz.....and I see no mentions of "incoherent" in the reviews.  For instance, all Nola speakers use 400hz.  The two top speakers from Vapor use 400 or 450.  The new Janszen electrostats use 500hz.  Yes, it would be nice if one could have it all in one driver.  Phase response is definitely an issue.  However, the truth about something (ie, how is sounds and performs) can only be known by experimenting.  The Hawthorne AMT might go to 500hz.  My friend has a two way that is crossed over at 800hz using 48 db per octave with a highly modded Behringer x-over.  He uses two 15 inch woofs up to 800 and then a Geddes waveguide with a Faital compression driver.  The system sounds way live....really coherent!  Personally, I have never heard any full range driver sound as transparent and alive as his system.  I do have limited experience with full range drivers....never heard the latest field coil drivers from Voxativ, Feastrex or Lowther, for instance.  Many ways up the mountain.  Just suggesting the super fast, transparent AMT from Hawthorne might be one nice path to great sound.  I will certainly find out.  Another friend, who owns the Hawthorne's was using an Audio Technology driver in a carbon fiber ball from 100hz to 3K and using a Scanspeak Beryllium on top (6 db per octave between the Audio Tech and Scanspeak).  He is now crossing the Hawthorne over at 700 at 12 db per octave (also highly modded Behringer x-over) and he is in heaven.

[bdp24]

Beside the fact that they were an Electrostatic speaker, with all of that design's inherent advantages over dynamic drivers of the day, one of the reasons the original Quad ESL's were for so long the best speakers commercially available was that they had a crossover-less panel covering 40Hz up to 7kHz, where the center tweeter strip took over. 99.9% of speakers in the 50's/60's/70's had really primitive crossovers. Both driver and crossover design have come a long way in the past couple of decades, enough so that dynamic (and Magnetic Planar and Ribbon) speakers are now competitive with ESL's, and actually best them in some ways.

[bladesmith]

As someone that is sensitive to phase, I find that the advantage of using a driver like the Neo10 is that it can cover almost the entire midrange by itself.  If you can go from 300zh to 3khz (or even better, 5khz), you start to get some of that coherent goodness that "single driver" fans love.

I agree, crossing over below 300 and crossing over above 5khz makes sense. if you can get a driver to work its magic in that frequency range. I always thought the ear was more critical from 300hz to 5khz/6khz. In theory,  seems correct.

Seems like some experimenting would/could make the NEO 10/3 match up very well. In a sleek/clean/modern design.

[Danny Richie]

Another option would be to use 2 Neo 10s (lower distortion, more dynamic) in parallel (4 ohm load) mounted sideways and above them run the Hawthorne Audio 700hz AMT.  The Hawthorne is 97 db so would be the same as two Neo 10s or slightly more (you could use a small value AudioPath resistor to pad if needed).  A friend is running his Hawthorne's at 700hz with just a 12 db per octave x-over (modified Behringer X-over) but he is just in the beginning of tweaking (he loves it!!!!).  He is also going to try higher slopes and lower x-over points.  Darrel at Hawthorne thinks the AMT can go to 500hz with 24 db per octave.  When I get my active x-over working my friend will loan me his Hawthorne AMTs and I will try it with two Neo 10s using my new Class A amps on both the Neos and Hawthorne.  I bet it will be killer.  I bet it will be way better than one Neo 10 and one Neo 3 (my current set up).  I will find out, for sure.

I don't see that working out well.

The 700 tweeter needs the wave guide to work otherwise the response looks like more of a teepee than it already is. And using the wave guide on the tweeter an aligning it to the Neo 10's is not happening. The drivers have to be physically aligned so that they are in phase front to back. That puts the wave guide in front of the Neo 10's.

Having done design work with the 700 tweeter, I can't say that it would sound better than a Neo 10 and Neo 3 combo.

[Danny Richie]

There are lots of great speakers that cross over a midrange at 4-500hz.....and I see no mentions of "incoherent" in the reviews.

The heart of the mid-range is the 300 to 500Hz range. It is a critical range. Splitting the mid-range into dissimilar drivers with a different offset and a phase shift doesn't work out well. As a rule of thumb keeping crossover points below 200Hz or above 1000Hz works much better. 

[Danny Richie]

Danny,

So, one NEO 10 per NEO 3 is best. for proper SPL's ?

How would you implement them together in an Open Baffle design ?

It seems like it would make a nice set up, a NEO3 with a NEO 10 in a Open Baffle, with a seperate  sub/woofer for each side. Maybe a set of those flat packs, with two ten" drivers in each.

Smith

I have a design that I am working on for Serenity Acoustics that uses a single Neo 10 and Neo 3 in a narrow baffle L frame and three 8" servo subs right below it.

[HT cOz]

Why not use 3d printing to make the complex baffle needed to do the driver combo right? 

[Ric Schultz]

I know the waveguide on the AMT would have to be in front of the Neo 10s.  I don't see a problem with that (except aesthetically).  Usually when you see radical offsets its a bunch of horns with the mid and high frequency horns set back....and then their outputs would be hitting the horns in front of it.  The mid-high frequency horn in this case would see nothing but air.  You could raise the AMT slightly so that it is not in the way of the output of the 2 Neo 10s.

What I plan to try is to use my active x-over.  Three way active: servo woofs going to 250 and then my active at 5-700.  So using a super transparent active x-over and Neo 10s is not what you heard when you played with the AMT.  You used a 15 inch driver running all the bass and 18db per octave passive x-over....completely different.   By having two Neo 10s you have more transparency in the lower midrange and more dynamics (96db).  Since I am currently using a single Neo 10 and Neo 3 (soon to be actively bi-amped) then I will know exactly what the differences will be.  You never know till you try something.  Could be killer, could be a dud (I doubt it).  As I said earlier, my friend with the AMTs is crossing at 700 at 12db per octave to an Audio Tech driver in a carbon fiber ball which is crossing at 100 to his woofers....so far, he loves it.

[Tyson]

The beauty of the Neo 10 is that it is a very wide band driver, capable of playing much, much higher than 700hz.  Why would you choke it like that?

[Danny Richie]

I have taken extensive measurements of the Neo 10's in all kinds of applications. My experience tells me that putting a wave guide out in front of them will really upset the response.

Ric, what measuring software do you use?

[Ric Schultz]

The waveguide would only be above the Neo 10s and you could put them a little further away....and they are crossing at 5-700.  I use Holmimpulse and also Omnimic.   The best software I use is my ears.  My friend with the two 15 inch woofs is crossing over at 800hz and the center of his waveguide is way over a foot away from the center of the top 15 inch woofer.  His speaker measures great (of course he uses the Behringer to get flat frequency response) and sounds outrageous. 

This is all just in my head.  I do not yet have my x-over done nor have the Hawthornes.....when I get them I will measure and listen.  By the way, my friend has bypassed the binding posts on the Hawthorne's (apparently very easy to do) so he is getting sound no one has ever heard from them.  He is going to try adding some felt right at the junction of the waveguide and AMT, felt around the outside opening of the waveguide and also even try adding very thin felt inside the whole waveguide.  He has good measuring software and even better ears.

I am not trying to "choke" anything.  I am just trying to find out if the AMT from 700 to 3K sounds better than using the Neo 10 all the way to 3K.  If is sounds better, it does.  The Neo 10 is not perfect.  Nothing is.  I am an experimenter.  I don't believe in rules.....except this one.  "What we know today, will be nothing tomorrow".

[Tyson]

I dunno, there's a huge amount of overlap in frequency response between those 2 drivers (the AMT and the Neo10).  I think the 10 and the 3 are a much better and more natural pairing.  If you are going with something like the AMT, I'd recommend a high efficiency 12 inch dedicated midrange driver.  There is just a certain weight and realism that large efficient drivers bring to the lower mids that nothing else can really replicate, IMO.  Since the AMT plays so low, it's a natural fit as you don't have to worry about the midrange driver beaming at that frequency.  I have a friend who built a similar configuration (but in a box), and it's the best system I've ever heard in a home. 

[Ric Schultz]

Yes, a two way with the Hawthorne AMTs it what I have been telling my clients to do for the last few weeks.....super simple, and I bet, super good.  However, a 15 or 12 inch driver (or even a couple of 8s...my preference) running to 700 hz does not have as much midrange clarity as a smaller less mass dedicated midrange (or midranges) would.  The latest version of the big Hawthorne with the 300hz AMT was shown using two 15s to lower the distortion even more....along with separate bass Augies.  As soon as you make a two way you have the modulation of the midrange from the woofer and you also have the pressure inside the box messing up the clarity.  A three way allows you to use lower mass drivers and have them un messed up by the woof.  You could even use 4 Neo 10s from 200 to 700..........if you ran them all in parallel you would have a 2 ohm load and over a 100db sensitive lower midrange.....I bet that would move some air....even series parallel they are 96db.  You could even use a few 6 inch low mass drivers in series/parallel for the lower midrange or even use a 10 or 12 inch dedicated mid as well.  You see, the only way to know what is best is to try all these things.  One can have opinions....I certainly do.  But I realize my opinions are nothing unless I have actually listened.  This is what I intend to do.  The waveguided Hawthorne or Beyma will not sound as good in a box.  They both will sound better run as dipoles.  Several people have commented on how much better the Beyma is when run dipole.    There is always more......more to learn, more to hear. 

[bladesmith]

I have a design that I am working on for Serenity Acoustics that uses a single Neo 10 and Neo 3 in a narrow baffle L frame and three 8" servo subs right below it.

Danny,

I'm sure that won't be a diy kit. But, I believe it would be a good design. And a great speaker. If the crossovers are kept out of the critical listening area/range. Say 150hz and then 5khz. Imho.

At the same time, "how can they not work well together". They just seem to be a perfect together, in theory,  considering the specs/physical design.

I just can't picture a baffle that will work well with both the Neo 10 and Neo 3 ?

Thanks.