New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)

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Danny Richie

New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« on: 16 Sep 2005, 10:15 pm »
I just finished up this pair and plan to bring them to the RMAF in a few weeks.



Shown is the left speaker. The right side is a mirror image of it.

In the center we have a pair of M-130/16 woofers in an open baffle (paralleled down to 8 ohms).



They cross steeply at 1,800Hz to a Neo 3 PDR. This hands over the upper end detail to the planar magnetic really quick. The result is an incredible level of detail and resolution that is hard to match with anything.

The woofers then use a low order crossover that crosses at 200Hz to four M-130 woofers loaded in ported enclosures. Two are above and two below. These are in a series parallel grouping keeping the speaker an 8 ohm load across the board.

The four ported M-130's will hit -3db down points in the mid 40's, but it doesn't stop there. Side loaded is a single 12" SW-12A woofer in a sealed box. With the crossover set at 40Hz on the plate amp it pulls about 6db of output off of it leaving what was the -9db down point as the new -3db down point. Now the -3db down point is 25Hz.



The extended side pieces at the bottom are made from layered MDF so it is super dense. It is also braced and lined with BH-5 as are the air spaces for the four M-130's. This thing is rock solid.



The open areas to the sides will be covered in a removable Black grill cloth and the back wall and part of the top and bottom areas around the drivers will be lined with a new damping material GR Research will be offering.

The new damping material has a damper that is twice the thickness of BH-5. Then it has a single layer of textured foam that is 1" thick. We will have it in stock next week. A 24" by 27" sheet will be only $38. a sheet so it is a bit more of a bargain compared to the $51. a sheet for BH-5.

The new damping material is called "No Rez". It will specifically handle resonance control as well as standing wave absorption.

Now you've learned of two new products in one thread.  :mrgreen:

Oh yea, the lower woofer is powered by a small plate amp mounted to the back of the box. I'll see if I can get some pricing info on the plate amps. These were prototypes used for testing.

Overall impressions of the speakers..., I am almost speechless.

Vocals just float in space deep between the speakers as if it were live. Everything is effortless as if there were no load at all on the drivers. This speaker is as good in this area as any speaker I have ever heard. In fact I can't think of any that better it. Even my Epiphany 20/21's come up far short of these speakers in this area.

Imaging is incredible and far exceeds the boundaries of the box. These have a big speaker, or life sized sound to them.

Roger Water's Amused to Death wrapped around the room from front to back like I have never heard before. These really disappear! I can easily live with this pair for a long time and miss nothing. I have had no other speakers do all the things well that these do.

Oh, and 8 ohms and 91db sensitivity make them easy to drive with anything. I am getting lots of output from a 30 watt amp.

Offering these as kits will make these the best bargain I have ever offered as the parts total comes in at just under $1,200. for the pair not counting plate amps.

The real de lima is that I have to come up with a name. I need a model number or name and a series name for this line as I have some supporting models to develop as well. I have some really good ideas in mind for a center channel, and surrounds.

My wife gave them a listen and her first impressions regarded openness and a all encompassing sound. She is already thinking of something along those lines.

Any model or series name ideas?

Danny Richie

One more thing.
« Reply #1 on: 16 Sep 2005, 10:22 pm »
Yes, I even veneered them myself. The veneer is Oriental Wood and has been wiped down with tung oil and a wipe on poly coat.

The finish work came out great but sure took a lot of time and gives me a new found respect for those that do it well and all the time.

Special thanks to Al Wooley for the veneering tips and a trimming bit. That, along with a little bit learned long ago from Brian Bunge and I managed it.

In the future though I may have to leave it to the experts, but I know now that if I can do it so can anyone else.  :wink:

brj

New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #2 on: 16 Sep 2005, 10:30 pm »
Aerial

Spirit

Eclipse

eros28

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Wow
« Reply #3 on: 16 Sep 2005, 10:51 pm »
Name:  

Wind Model 1

Revelation

Discovery

or

A/V Infinity  :mrgreen:

RAW

New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #4 on: 16 Sep 2005, 11:18 pm »
Nice job Danny  :mrgreen:
Well done I will say for sure.With that mid chamber that looks interesting!!

Can not wait to listen at the show.
 :D

Another one to the list.

trekker

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New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #5 on: 17 Sep 2005, 01:12 am »
I like the open mid-chamber side opening.   This must make it easier to place in a room as oppose to an opening in the back of the enclosure.

Would a rear firing tweeter add any additional benefits to the soundstage?  :?:     I was just wondering, why just stop with an open back mid.  :D  

Arnold

Andrikos

New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #6 on: 17 Sep 2005, 01:47 am »
Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce you to the
"GR Grace"!
;)

Fantastic design btw, very very nicely done.

texasphile

I have heard the future...
« Reply #7 on: 17 Sep 2005, 02:29 am »
...and it sounds extremely good.  Howdy folks, I am at Danny's right now auditioning the new, as yet unnamed, open baffle loudspeaker.  I have to tell you that it sounds incredibly realistic reproducing the sound of certain instruments.  The sound of a Baritone Saxophone and Drum Kit are the most "real" that I have ever heard so far in a 16 bit world.  I have only listened for about 45 minutes, but they have been great.  I really like the sound of the RAW Acoustics RA8 as well.  The RA8 is a little more "airy" and the unnamed open baffle loudspeaker is slightly more dark, yet more realistic sounding.  The open baffle does not need a subwoofer unless you like extremely powerful bass.

I hope that helps tide everyone over until the Rocky Mountain Show when you can hear both in person.  It is nice to live one town away from Danny so I get to audition prototypes and finished products.  (Danny is not peeking over my shoulder so he has no idea what I just wrote about his latest design).

Cheers,
Chris

ekovalsky

New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #8 on: 17 Sep 2005, 02:38 am »
Way to go Danny  8)   They look like the little cousin of my Alons ...

1.  Open mid-section for tweeter and midrange drivers.  Obviously these use a D'Appolito rather than line array configuration.  The B&G planars and the Raven ribbons are both sealed, so only the midranges operate in dipole!  By the way, the Alons sound better with the side and particularly rear grills removed, and these probably will too.

2.  An "expanding array" woofer system with two drivers above and below the mid/tweeter section.  These use paper cones (vented) as opposed to magnesium cones (acoustic).

3.  Subwoofer.  In these it is integrated into the main cabinet with a plate amp, while the Alons have a separate enclosure requiring an external amp and crossover.



Anyway... given these similarities, I would expect these speakers to have a very transparent, coloration-free midrange thanks to the open baffle mounting.  And also fast, tight bass from the small woofers in the expanded array plus a solid deep bass foundation from the powered subwoofer.  

I doubt the single B&G planar can equal the performance of the Raven ribbon tweeter in the upper octaves.  But, having the single driver rather than a line array saves a lot of coin and eliminates some design challenges.  And of course that planar can handle a lot more power than a single ribbon.  That said, I bet the Raven R3.2 MMX would be awesome in this design, too bad it alone costs more than the entire speaker kit!  The R1 and R2 probably can't cross low enough to be used, unless a DSP crossover was used.

As for a name, how about the GR "Lucidity" ?


marvda1

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New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #10 on: 17 Sep 2005, 03:22 am »
danny, are you going to make it to the sept. jam saturday? i sure would like to hear those new speakers.

marvin

BradJudy

Re: New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #11 on: 17 Sep 2005, 03:48 am »
Very cool stuff Danny.  I can't wait to hear them.

Quote from: Danny
Oh yea, the lower woofer is powered by a small plate amp mounted to the back of the box. I'll see if I can get some pricing info on the plate amps. These were prototypes used for testing.


Hmmm...I think I might know which ones these are.  Was this the application you had in mind when you picked them up?

gprro

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New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #12 on: 17 Sep 2005, 04:29 am »
Any reason not to leave the back completely open like the alons?

Milehighguy

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New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #13 on: 17 Sep 2005, 08:26 am »
Interesting design indeed.
Is there a reason for using a sealed woofer rather than your tried and true passive radiator design?
As for names...
How about calling them part of the "Soundscape" series, Such as "Soundscape 1" "Soundscape 2", or "Soundscape AV1", Soundscape AV2", etc.
Your sales pitch could then be that the speakers produce "A landscape of sound".
Just my $.02 worth.
I look forward to checking them out!

trekker

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New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #14 on: 17 Sep 2005, 01:12 pm »
I was thinking, how about naming these speakers - OMA series (Open Mid Array).

Arnold

Danny Richie

New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #15 on: 17 Sep 2005, 03:34 pm »
Quote
I doubt the single B&G planar can equal the performance of the Raven ribbon tweeter in the upper octaves.


It's close, but the ribbons have a little more air in the top end. I have the pair of RA8's on hand to A/B with these and have done so.

The RA104.5 ribbon is very similar to the Raven R-1 in how it sounds, and I used to be a dealer for the Raven tweeters.

The RA104.5 tips up in response above 18kHz while the planar magnetic tips down a little at that point. This may be another reason for the added air in the top end of the ribbon.

This added air recreates the simmering trailing edge of a symbol very well, but the planar magnetic tweeter captures the attack or the striking of the symbol more accurately and gives a greater sense of realism.

The real advantage in the planar magnetic over the ribbon design is the much lower crossover point of the planar magnetic. I can cross a full octave lower with no problems at all.

The larger ribbons can be crossed lower but the larger ribbons are much taller and have a very limited vertical dispersion compared to the shorter ribbons and planar tweeters like the Neo 3 pdr. The larger ribbons should really be limited to line source usage.

Quote
danny, are you going to make it to the sept. jam saturday? i sure would like to hear those new speakers.


I'd like to but just can't make it down this time.

Quote
Hmmm...I think I might know which ones these are. Was this the application you had in mind when you picked them up?


Yep.

Quote
Any reason not to leave the back completely open like the alons?


Good question. I figured, sense it is only 8" wide and is 16" back that it really wouldn't be blocking much. I also figured it would help the strength of the cabinet to keep it solid.

Quote
Is there a reason for using a sealed woofer rather than your tried and true passive radiator design?


A couple of reasons actually. Mainly that an optimal sealed box for our woofer is only 1.1 cubic feet of air space and I needed a small air space design. Added the PR would require me to increase the air space quite a bit.

Plus, I knew it would never need to play above 40Hz. Pulling the top end of the woofers response down this much means I am left with a new F3 that is much lower for a sealed box and hitting a F3 in the mid 20's is plenty low enough.

Quote
How about calling them part of the "Soundscape" series,


Soundscape huh? I like that. Any other companies using that name anyone?

I like Aerial too, but there is already a company using that name.

MikeSRC

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New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #16 on: 17 Sep 2005, 05:34 pm »
Quote
Soundscape huh? I like that. Any other companies using that name anyone?


http://www.soundscape.com - They make outdoor speakers though which could never be confused with yours.

That design looks great Danny.  Fortunately (for domestic harmony reasons), I don't have a room big enough to handle those.   :wink:

However, I am keeping an eye out for those upgraded A/V-3 drivers.   :mrgreen:

ekovalsky

New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #17 on: 17 Sep 2005, 05:52 pm »
My personal favorite speaker names are from the Buggtussel brand, all named after parts of the brain involved with hearing.  They even have their upper end "cephalic" line and their lower end "anencephalic line"  :lol:

There are a lot of other cool-named brain nuclei that they haven't used, as least yet ...

Milehighguy

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New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #18 on: 17 Sep 2005, 06:08 pm »
I was unaware of the soundscape company. I got the name from a music channel on the directv satelite network. It's a channel that plays relaxing instrumental music that's sort of new wave, and a step above elevator music.

arthurs

New speakers that are bad to bone (pics too)
« Reply #19 on: 17 Sep 2005, 06:45 pm »
I'm tellin ya Danny, The Encompass Series.... 8)