[Grumpy_Git]

I felt the need to post and offer my prayers at this time to those who have been injured or killed as a result of the evil events in London and for their families.

I have lots of close family and friends who live and work in central London and can only thank god that none of them were injured or caught up in the explosions. Many others were not so lucky and my thoughts are with them at this time.

Nick.

[woodsyi]

My prayers are with those who were injured and the family of those who died.  I took the subway in today and I don't feel like getting back on it because I think I am a bit clausterphobic .  I just don't like the idea of being trapped underground.  But I am not going to give into these terrorists who resorts to harming the innocent.  I will ride it back home and ride it back out to work tomorrow!

[gonefishin]

A sad day indeed.  My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.

  God bless,

   dan

[rosconey]

   


           

[RonR]

My thoughts are also with the victims and those left behind.
 
I happen to work in central London, our two offices are near to Aldgate East and Liverpool Street stations. I didn't see much of what went on, but from what I did see the people working in the emergency services  did a fantastic job today. They have my total admiration.
I'm not looking forward to going to work tomorrow, but if the terrorist's aim was to disrupt, our response must be to carry on as best we can.

Ron.

[WEEZ]

It is difficult for most of us to understand such evil..

I join with other poster's and everyone else and offer my prayers for comfort and stength to the victims and their family and friends. And for the wisdom that will be granted to government and law officials to round-up the barbarians that did this.

This must be stopped at any cost,

 

WEEZ

[AKSA]

This century appears to be another bloodied turning point in history.

My heart goes out to the families of the unfortunate dead and maimed in London.

Hugh

[no capes]

For as long as I live, I will never understand such violence.  What can be more important than existing in harmony with our environment and each other?

[andyr]

For as long as I live, I will never understand such violence.  What can be more important than existing in harmony with our environment and each other?

Simple answer, no capes ... religion!

Regards,

Andy

[AKSA]

Nah, the religion thing is a smokescreen, it's probably more likely to be territory, money, and ancient feuds........

Cheers,

Hugh

[doug s.]

Nah, the religion thing is a smokescreen, it's probably more likely to be territory, money, and ancient feuds........

Cheers,

Hugh

that's exactly what organized religion *IS* - a smokescreen for territory, money, ancient feuds, etc.  

doug s.

[PSP]

Londoners, in fact all of civilized society, were dealt a blow (again) yesterday.  My deepest condolences to the families of the dead, the injured and their families, and all of London.  

I think we all need to be suscpicous of anyone teaching hate in whatever form... whether it be aimed at the west, Muslims, Palestinians, Jewish people, or the anti-gay vile that we have heard so much of lately in the US.

People don't preach hate for your good, they preach hate for their own benefit.  If we learn to recognize hate speech and then can pause long enough to look behind the curtain and glimse the real motives, we can walk away and the speaker's power will vanish.  There will always be a nut or two, but I think we can sidestep the "millions of nuts" scenario if we all can learn to play this game more effectively.  We will all be better off, and safer too.

The media (special interests, on and on, even "good causes") want to keep us always on the edge of controversy.  It's entertaining, but costly.  Turn it off, and instead put Norah Jones on your rig....  

Peter

[nathanm]

...In the Guardian of September 15th, I named belief in an afterlife as the key weapon that made the New York atrocity possible. Of prior significance is religion’s deep responsibility for the underlying hatreds that motivated people to use that weapon in the first place. To breathe such a suggestion, even with the most gentlemanly restraint, is to invite an onslaught of patronising abuse, as Douglas Adams noted. But the insane cruelty of the suicide attacks, and the equally vicious though numerically less catastrophic ‘revenge’ attacks on hapless Muslims living in America and Britain, push me beyond ordinary caution.

How can I say that religion is to blame? Do I really imagine that, when a terrorist kills, he is motivated by a theological disagreement with his victim? Do I really think the Northern Ireland pub bomber says to himself, “Take that, Tridentine Transubstantiationist bastards!” Of course I don’t think anything of the kind. Theology is the last thing on the minds of such people. They are not killing because of religion itself, but because of political grievances, often justified. They are killing because the other lot killed their fathers. Or because the other lot drove their great- grandfathers off their land. Or because the other lot oppressed our lot economically for centuries.

My point is not that religion itself is the motivation for wars, murders and terrorist attacks, but that religion is the principal label, and the most dangerous one, by which a ‘they’ as opposed to a ‘we’ can be identified at all. I am not even claiming that religion is the only label by which we identify the victims of our prejudice. There’s also skin colour, language, and social class. But often, as in Northern Ireland, these don’t apply and religion is the only divisive label around. Even when it is not alone, religion is nearly always an incendiary ingredient in the mix as well...

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/2001-09time_to_stand_up.shtml

And for the wisdom that will be granted to government and law officials to round-up the barbarians that did this.

This must be stopped at any cost,

What is "any cost"?  That's really the whole problem.  Our "wise" governments are willing to "stop" things at any cost, (not THEIR cost, but everyone else's cost) meaning more bloodshed, more occupation, more meddling, more resentment, more people dead on either side.  At the cost of trampling upon more and more of our liberties.  The powerful and violent go around the world building their empires, shoving people around, making them do what they don't wanna do and sometimes the folks on the other side strike back.  What happens in return?  More of the same.  The government idea of justice for a crime is going out and starting a war, that is, as long as they can do it in someone else's country.  Notice how domestically-sourced terrorism is dealt with using due process of law, but if people from some far off land might be responsible, well then we need a huge military invasion.  Send in the planes, send in the troops, who cares if some innocents die, right?  We'll just sit back and watch the show on the TV.  Wow, that was a huge explosion!  That explosion spread democracy all over the place!

[andyr]

Good points have been raised.  I recently heard a radio program where a young Australian woman spoke who had been doing "charitable work" in Iraq.  She commented that the Iraqians she had been working with were lovely people who were genuinely sorry that, although she was a lovely person, she would be going to Hell when she died (because she was a Christian ... and only "true believers" end up in Heaven).

These particular Moslems were of the gentle kind - so they weren't interested in forcibly "converting" her for the good of her immortal soul.  However, those who were the subject of recent security-service raids in Australia would seem not to be so gentle - it seems they are hard-liners who had been plotting to bring about a Sharia state in their homeland (which wasn't specified).  It is these sorts of people - what I would call "muscular Moslems" who give rise to the suicide bombers.

I said "religion" because I was remembering the Crusades started in (I think) the 12th century - so we've had 900 years of antagonism between Christians and Moslems.  We've had "muscular Christianity" too in the 15th-18th Centuries, in the form of South Americans being subdued by the sword ... and yet, as Hugh pointed out, it wasn't religion which really was at the heart of this ... it was gold!

And yet, as was pointed out in another post, what happens if "fair-thinking democracies take all possible steps" to root out this evil?

The future does not look good ... in my lifetime, anyway.

Regards,

Andy

[klh]

Nathan,

How do you suggest we stop the terrorist attacks? What do you propose would work to make extremists not attack us?

At least Bush and Blair are doing something to try and make a difference. Personally, I don't think they are doing enough. Don't forget the extremist Muslims hate eveything about us. They hate our religions and they hate our way of life. Do you think backing down and wimpering away would cause them to back off? Everything I've read and heard about the Arab culture says those with power must use it or they are determined to be weak... and if they are weak, and different, they must be overpowered. So, if the US or Britain back down, or are indecisive, then they are weak, which then emboldens the extremists and causes more problems for us at home. Personally I think this is a no win situation. Since that is the case, we must do what is likely to keep Americans and Brits safe, and that means going after them and shutting them down. Sure, that causes unfortunate loss of innocents, but better theirs than ours. And they don't seem to hesitate to go after our innocents... that much is clear. At least we try to only go after the guilty ones.

Edit: I am talking about the extremist or "muscular "type... definitely not the "peaceful" type.  Obviously finding any terrorist, muslim or not, is very difficult. Taking the life of an innocent, or even doing harm to one must be avoided. Then again, if stopping one of the terrorists keeps 50 or more innocents here alive, let alone uninjured, then having 5 or 10 or even 20 innocents on the other side interrogated is a small price to pay... no matter what happens in the interrogation. BTW, flushing a Koran down the toilet or wearing undies on your head is nothing compared to what a muslim extremist would to to the Bible or one of their detainees (don't forget the beheadings). Of course it would be best if all of this went away, but that isn't going to happen, so we just have to hope our governements do the best they can.

[doug s.]

Good points have been raised.  I recently heard a radio program where a young Australian woman spoke who had been doing "charitable work" in Iraq.  She commented that the Iraqians she had been working with were lovely people who were genuinely sorry that, although she was a lovely person, she would be going to Hell when she died (because she was a Christian ... and only "true believers" end up in Heaven)....

i find this ironically humourous, if it weren't so sick:    a coupla years back, a "born-again" that i worked with tried to convince me the same thing - that, regardless of how good a person i was, because i was jewish, & dint accept jesus christ as the saviour, that i was condemned to spend eternity in hell.  

doug s.

[doug s.]

krister, ya thought i was defensive in another thread?  you have *really* lost it this time!

How do you suggest we stop the terrorist attacks? What do you propose would work to make extremists not attack us?

how about holding israel to the same standards of behaviour that we hold its enemies to?  DOH!!!

At least Bush and Blair are doing something to try and make a difference. Personally, I don't think they are doing enough.

were you born stupid, or did you study extra hard?  how is attacking a country that had absolutely NOTHING to do with commiting terrorist acts against us going to do ANYTHING but inflame extremist muslims against us?  or do anything but make those sitting on the fence now want to attack us?  there was NO terrorist activity against the usa coming out of iraq prior to our "pre-emptively" invading that country.

Don't forget the extremist Muslims hate eveything about us. They hate our religions and they hate our way of life.

hmmm...  kinda sounds a bit like the radical right wing to me, re: their thoughts about their muslim brethren...  

Do you think backing down and wimpering away would cause them to back off? Everything I've read and heard about the Arab culture says those with power must use it or they are determined to be weak... and if they are weak, and different, they must be overpowered. So, if the US or Britain back down, or are indecisive, then they are weak, which then emboldens the extremists and causes more problems for us at home.

so...  we let 'em go in afghanistan, where they really *were* hanging out, where they really *were* a threat.  how does *THAT* show strength?  and, we ally ourselves w/pakistan, which *IS* a real terrorist threat, and attack the country w/the second largest oil reserves in the world!?!  that doesn't show any moral strength, all it shows is GREED

Personally, I think this is a no win situation. Since that is the case, we must do what is likely to keep Americans and Brits safe, and that means going after them and shutting them down.

with idiotic reasoning like that, yure damn right it's a no win situation.  as long as americans & brits live on the planet, they have to respect others, even if they do not like it.  or face the consequences.
 

Sure, that causes unfortunate loss of innocents, but better theirs than ours. And they don't seem to hesitate to go after our innocents... that much is clear. At least we try to only go after the guilty ones.

you really are an idiot!!!!  have you heard any news the past two years?  WE ONLY GO AFTER THE GUILTY ONES????  tell that to the families of the hundreds of thousands of those we have killed in iraq, just to feed our thirst for oil.  the ones that had absolutely nothing to do terrorism against us.  sure saddam was a bad guy.  after all, the usa & britain helped arm him 20 years ago, & looked the other way when he used the stuff, when it was in our interest for him to use it...  but, he certainly was no threat to any of us now.

with attitudes like this, no wonder the rest of the world hates the usa - jeez...

doug s.

[doug s.]

...Edit: I am talking about the extremist or "muscular "type... definitely not the "peaceful" type. Obviously finding any terrorist, muslim or not, is very difficult. Taking the life of an innocent, or even doing harm to one must be avoided. Then again, if stopping one of the terrorists keeps 50 or more innocents here alive, let alone uninjured, then having 5 or 10 or even 20 innocents on the other side interrogated is a small price to pay... no matter what happens in the interrogation. BTW, flushing a Koran down the toilet or wearing undies on your head is nothing compared to what a muslim extremist would to to the Bible or one of their detainees (don't forget the beheadings). Of course it would be best if all of this went away, but that isn't going to happen, so we just have to hope our governements do the best they can....

krister, your edit is so lame, it's like trying to put out a fire w/gasoline.

doug s.

[lonewolfny42]

klh :

BTW, flushing a Koran down the toilet or wearing undies on your head is nothing compared to what a muslim extremist would to to the Bible or one of their detainees (don't forget the beheadings).

[/list:u]

How can one

forget that !!!...very graphic... [/list:u]

[AKSA]

I'm sorry, this is a bit off topic, and might also upset a few.

As world population rises, tempers rise at many levels, and particularly amongst zealots, because there are now more of them - of every persuasion.  With so many people, and such raping of the environment (and electronics is appallingly polluting   ), there will be more natural disasters - and more crowding in developing countries, and an accelerating slide in the standard of living.  All this will cause more Third World deaths;  notably in the sub-continent, the Middle East, and, of course, in Africa.

These deaths to some extent relieve the burden on the planet, but they leave palpable resentment, which takes deep root in the afflicted peoples, who are left with nothing but their thoughts.............

As time passes the difference between the haves and have nots worsens, and the resentment grows into horrific anti-social behaviour.  Not just terrorism, but also suicide, mental illness, violence against women and children, and obsession with fundamentalist belief structures.  I believe we are starting to see this now, as the developed countries almost mindlessly protect their enviable positions with all their substantial military, economic and political defences.  Religious fundamentalism in the Third World is just a part of this process;  often used as the idealogical vehicle, sadly.

I am very impressed by the stiff upper lip of the Brits.  Two of my countrymen remain on the critical list.  Bali was a huge awakening for Australia, and very significant for me, as my own family is half Indonesian.

Hugh