[JohnnyLightOn]

Israel is taking steps to curb terrorism (right or wrong...I've never been to Israel so can't say how I'd feel had I been) that break so many international rules.

It's interesting Arab countries keep pointing this out, how Israel has killed so many Palestineans compared to Jews killed by Palestineans.  And, by the way, it's 3 to 1, not 5 to 1.  But the interesting thing is that ten times (yes, TEN TIMES) as many Sudanese have been killed in a much shorter period of time by Arab militia than have all the Palestineans killed by Israeli hands since the current intifada began.

Yet, do you hear the outcry among the Arab world about this?  About Arabs killing so many non-Arabs, in the most brutal of fashion and far more brutal than the worst Israeli action.  Of course not.

The Arab world does not give a hoot about the Palestinians (except, of course, for the Palestineans themselves).  They care that there's another religion in their midst.  For most of the Arab states, the fact that the Palestineans don't have their own state is very beneficial and something they do NOT want fixed, as (pointed out by me above), this gives them something to deflect the anger of their own populaces.

The bottom line is that if you're not Israeli, Jewish, or Palestinean, then if you're upset about the situation there you probably have another, and very suspect agenda.  There are far, far worse situations going on that get no attention at all.

[maxwalrath]

Interesting stuff. I honestly wasn't aware of the details of what is happening in the Sudan.

My point wasn't to say that Arabs everywhere are getting the short end of the stick, just that a ton of Americans have no idea about the details and statistics in Israel. The Israeli Palestinian conflict is an example where, in our media anyway, the acts commited against Israelis get a disproportionate amount of coverage.

The methods of that side of the aggresion are more dramatic.....

There are examples in many places in the last decade of religion being a huge influence in war / genocide (balkans).

In general, whatever group inflicting pain on another usually won't try to raise awareness of the issue.

While I'm not involved in the conflict in any way, I don't think there's anything wrong with being upset about the situation. There are lots of situations in the world that no one should be happy about. There's nothing wrong with being upset about war.


On a side note....what the hell am I doing awake at this hour on a Monday night?

[JohnnyLightOn]

There's no question it's a terrible situation, and it needs to be resolved by the Palestineans having their own, independent country.  I don't think it's wrong to be personally upset by it.

What I should have said is that for the Arab world and certain other countries to PRETEND to be so upset about it is to show that they have a hidden agenda of either political manipulation or religious hatred.  I believe the same applies to some people who are not directly involved but who hate Israel because of this struggle between the two peoples.  

Both sides hold claim to the land, and have owned it at different times in the past.  If it were any country other than Israel being attacked by terrorism in this manner, I think there would have been an all-out war and few Palestineans would be left.  Most countries would have wiped out the Palestineans.  People do not understand how much restraint Israel shows in this on a daily basis.  

Where I live, the coverage is sharply anti-Israel in the L.A. Times.  The coverage throughout Europe is also anti-Israel.  But I agree that the U.S. national news outlets do not emphasize the casualty difference, and Fox probably significantly underplays the Palestinean side.

[DVV]

With all due respect, but I don't think the whole issue boils down to Israel vs the Arab world struggle. In fact, reducing it to just that one issue would be playing into the manipulators' hands, they like to have things kept simple to the good and the bad guys. Life isn't black and white, so even that very touchy issue is far more complex than who has killed more of whom and how.

I think the London affair proves this point. It turns out now that these were home grown muslims, most of them. And not Arabs, but of Pakistani descent.

This, as I see it, simply proves that no matter what anyone says, we are dealing with muslim vs christian struggle. To make matters more complex yet, it's the christians in this story who are big, rich and powerful, while the muslims are small, poor and though not powerless, definitely at a disadvantage in terms of power.

Consider. We, the christians, do have some standards related to human rights, one of which is free confession. So, a Saudi Arab CAN build a mosque in Rome or New York - now let's see somebody try to build a church in Jeddah. They will scream at our disregard for their beliefs, but will take it for granted that they owe no return favors, simply because they never said all faiths were the same before the eyes of the law. In fact, they made VERY sure they were all BUT the same, there being only one permitted religion.

Muslims HAVE penetrated Europe through Bosnia and Kosovo, the links of local leaders with Al Quaeda being public - yet nobody reacts. I suppose the US might be politically interested to have two permanent thorns stuck deeply into European thighs, but this is at best a fool's logic, because using Europe as a spring board, these same people will arrive in the US sooner or later.

It's known that some 9,000 mujahedeen, veterans from the Afghanistan war first against the Russians, then against the US, have married, settled down and obtained Bosnian passports - nobody sees anything strange in that, except the CIA which keeps warning about it, but nobody seems to listen. Since its "liberation" from us Serbs, Kosovo has used the time to become Europe's main supplier of drugs from Turkey (another much trusted NATO ally) and in white slave trade; estimates go as far as 70% of Europe's heroin and prostitution being controlled by Kosovo Albanians mostly. Nobody reacts.

What do you think will happen when Kosovo is granted independence, and even more power is passed on to politicians with known links to the underworld?

Then, a MUCH overlooked factor, the population boom. It's been a traditional strategy of the muslims to slowly gain territories by expanding their numbers. First one family of say 5 moves to say Sweden. Within 5-6 years, those 5 have become 10, with a child regularly due every year. And they are using local advanced health protection plans to get those countries to effectively subsidize this expansion. And while every child born on Swedish soil will have the right to Swedish nationality, it will be very much Albanian in heart, in culture and in religion.

Then, relatives are given guarantees for, so they arrive, and we see the same cycle replayed over and over again. But say 15-20 years later, you see the initial two families split into 8, 9 or more families, doing the same trick. Work out the dynamics and be appaled; remember, with Albanians, 5-6 kids is nothing to speak of, you start boasting at 10 kids and over. If memory serves, the current record is 21.

This is how they became the majority in Kosovo since 1945, using the old social security system, which legally subsidized families with with 3 kids and over. Many in fact lived by making kids, and of course, doing contraband on the side. Kosovo is mostly barren, poor farming land, with little natural resources excpet for boxite and some coal. Children are forbidden to go to schools, except religious schools. That's how it all works. The only thing holding them back being their vendetta, which lives on to this day - lex talions, eye for an eye, life for a life.

How will the west deal with this mentality, because it's this type of general mentality which breeds terrorism. This idea that man's laws are of no consequence in comparison with the laws of god, and Allah said multiply and spread the true faith. Did you know that islam has no concept of hell?

The methods you are ultimately forced to use are no less crude or savage than your enemy. The Brits devised a method in 1947, when they were engaged around the creation of Israel, and faced Arab muslim terrorism; each killed Arab hence muslim terrorist was wrapped in a pig skin. To muslims, this is a guarantee that their souls will never reach Allah. So they can't be mujahedeen, they can't be martyrs. Terrorism levels dropped off VERY sharply.

The ultimate potential of any enemy is not in what he can do to you, but in what he can make you do to defend yourself from him. Therein lies the greatest danger. Do the Brits now have to open concentration camps (which, by the way, they invented and used first in the Boer war in 1905), not as death camps, but as literally concentration camps, places where you lock up large groups to be able to keep an eye on them?

An interesting view of this can be seen in the movie "State of Siege" - if you haven't, by all means do see it.

Cheers,
DVV

[theborg]

This thread is locked pending further consideration.

I agree with John on this one;  it's off topic, and could get controversial.

Hugh