[klh]

Hugh... very well written. I think you nailed it on the head.

[WEEZ]

"..at the cost of trampling on more and more of our liberties.."

Nathan, with all due respect, what liberties might those be? I assume you're referring to the Patriot Act?

I suppose this thread will also be trashed because terrorism can't be discussed without bringing in religion and politics- and as I've said on other threads- this really isn't the place... so I won't go there.

I sincerely believe, that terrorism must be fought and defeated. If it is not- then our 'liberties' won't mean much anyway, will they.

We can agree to disagree. I still pray for the victims and their families- as I'm sure we all do, in our own way.

WEEZ

[John Casler]

If we liken the world as a "societal BODY, then terrorism is a cancer like illness society is suffering from.

No matter what the cause, the body will not recover until the "disease of terrorism" has been defeated by a cure.

Just like cancer has a very complex origin and activation, so in society has the disease of terrorism.

A cure will be a very complex and painful process, and at this time "conventional medicine" (war machines in various countries) don't seem to be able to stop it.

The body (society) doesn't really have an effective "immune response" to heal itself, since this is an agressive disease and could, if given time, destroy society as we know it.

The real cure is not yet evident, but will likely present itself once the paradigm shifts to see the disease for what it is and that it will not respond to normal means.  

Surgery, chemotherapy, radiation, while medical terms have also been applied to warfare.  

Right now, we are sick as a society.  Our body is producing "enemy cells" that are making us sicker.

We need a way to get the right doctor, treatment, and to strengthen our own cells to be "killer cells" ( a term for cells in your body that fight cancer) and only by developing this system to work organically will we be able to once again be healthy.

[rabbitz]

You have to go back in history and work out what pi55ed these people off in the first place but this is a DIY Audio forum, so we don't need any wars raging here.

My sympathy goes out to the innocents of this event and all others whether from a terrorist attack or under the cover of an armed conflict.... same result... the innocent suffer and pay the ultimate price.

[doug s.]

to john, hugh & rabbitz, i agree 100% w/what you said.  to weez, i remind you what ben franklin said:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. "

doug s.

[Kevin P]

Terrorism is a method not a philosophy.    

The problem that we face is one of disinfrancized by a large section of the world's population.   They are disenfranchised by the lack of opportunity to do anything but eak out an existence.   For the most part this has been caused by war, tyrannical governments, disease overpopulation, lack of education and in general the lack of progress towards a form of society that empowers the individual.   It is caused by ignorance and the lack of hope.   The same thing happened at the development of Communism.   There was a groundswell of support from the disenfranchised and there were a lot of them during the world depression.   The rise if Hitler was tied to the same general problem.   Lack of individual liberty, education and opportunity lead to tyranny.   We often view this as something from our past but it's still the situation for much of the world.

I would agree.... it’s not really a problem of religion because religion is nothing other than a way of viewing the world.   The reason these people view us as evil has more to do with their circumstance.   They use the Koran as support for their already formed views, not the other way around.

This is not a new phenomenon.   This is an age old one.   The new problem is the scope of the damage that can be caused by a few.   The advent of modern weapons potentially makes them MUCH more dangerous.   A nuclear weapon gives a small group the ability to kill millions.  

Who's fault is all this?  I think that looking for fault is a non-productive activity but I'll say this.   I think that those with power are morally obligated to do something positive with it.   Some argue that since so many who have tried to help have failed that it's just a lost cause.   I'd say that is no excuse.   Each of us is obligated to do something about the plight of those less fortunate.   For those who think it's helpless I'd argue I don't care.   A life spent working toward something good has value whether the situation is helpless or not.

[Greg Erskine]

The last few posts have been much closer to my views on the situation.

It is the nature of man to behave in this manner. It always has and always will. This inbuilt trait is what has made the human face successful so far. Which side of the fence you are on is a result of where you are born, nothing more. We are all capable of doing these acts. I have a firm belief that our societies are getting better but our views on reality are heavily distorted by the media (and other technology). Everyone should turn the TV off and listen to more music.

Man will eventually unite to fight a bigger foe.

Bring on the Martians or the extinction of the universe.

I do feel deep sadness for all the innocent individuals who pay the price for our societies actions.

[soitstarts]

Oh dear... First and foremost, condolences to all those affected..

We lobby to stop whaling, but don't sign the Kyoto agreement.

We save East Timor, but rob them of thier resources.

We invade Iraq to (this week) free the people from oppression but will crawl over each other to do bussiness with China.

Where's Osama... Still planning attacks while the Coalition secures the contracts to rebuild the damage.

All our insurance has gone up because of the 9/11 attacks... So because big buisiness underinsured big buisiness we will all pay for it..

Osama lives in a cave and spends all his money trying to kill westerners while Saddam goes potty on gold toilets in his palace while his lookalikes are all over the place.. Who is the biggest threat?? The guy sitting on the oil, of course.

America is in disscussion with Aussie scientists because of the discovery of a new bug up north that could be used for Biological warfare..

People get beheaded and more line up to take thier place because the money is good. I wonder if the going rate increases with each kidnapping???

We lock up families because they 'Jumped a que' while bombing their homeland because of the evil oppressor. then we're told they have Playstations and air con so we resent them...

With the majority, our government is going to make it harder for handicapped Veterans to get the level of help they need. Perhaps they are expecting an influx?
Single parents have to go back to work instead of raising their kids. Workers have to become more 'flexible' (god help us).
I'm on over 100 thou a year and will now get an extra 60 bucks a week. My sister in law is on 30 thou a year and is getting 8 bucks extra........

Its not religion, belief, or power... It's all money...  Because money has become all of those things in twisted minds.

Ask Saddam how important it all was while he was hiding in his hole. I bet he wished he had a simple life surrounded by friends and family when the barrels were pointed at him.

Meanwhile, Osama scares the hell outa me.. He has fought, he lives in a tent or a cave or a snake hole and all his energy is pointed at his stated beliefs. He doesn't make shit up or talk around what he realy wants. Thats why he will always have a following, he practasies what he preaches. HE HAS REAL POWER... Would any of us take a bullet for George Tony or Johnny?

Sorry, I didn't start it.....

[rimljan99]

Today, 10 years ago in 1995 happened  the biggest masacre against civilians after the second world war at the gates of Europe. In Srebrenica  (Bosnia) 10000 people was killed  in few days. These people were under protection of Netherlands army and NATO forces. American air forces gave a promise to protect those civilians, but nothing happens...

There was no oil, just blood...many galons of blood

And I remember on CNN one TV repoter questioning people about this masacre and the most answers sound like this:" I do not care."  "It is not my problem."

But it was too. Many years later happened terrorist attack in NY.

[Bemopti123]

Rimljam99, I too remember the brutality of the Balkan massacres, when I was in graduate school.  The news and the photos were heartbreaking and yet, I also remember other events  that took place at the same time, the Rwandan massacres.

If the Srebrenica massacre and reaction against was mute from all fronts, Europe and the US, then, you needed to feel the reaction on what happened in Africa at the same time.  Nothing, some headlines here and there, but I did feel that the European genocides were much better covered.  

It did not help much.

When people say that we live in a civilized society, that is humane, that cares, I think much otherwise.  The reaction of the typical pedestrian in the US, when told about the news would first be,

1-where is that?
2-why are you telling me that?
3-how does it affect me?(when you answer that it does and you explain...most usually, the answer is too long and the reply would be...)
4-It is too bad.

This does not mean that people in general are bad or inmoral.  It just tells that we live in an age where people have little imagination to think and to understand the meaning of "texts" or events.  Very much like the mentality of the Dark or Middle Ages...eventhough the physical borders of the world have shrank, the lack of true knowledge or willingness to see beyond one's world has actually increased.

Some people would challenge this notion, but I really believe that a form or "fog of knowledge/truth" is very much prevalent our days.  

Paul

[Raj]

Hi,

The aftermath of this event will cause sorrow to many. I am a Sikh, who lives in the UK and works as a courier for Business Post and Fed-Ex. Having A turban and beard makes me someone who is an easy target. Many of the UK residents do not even know that most Muslims do not wear turbans or have unshorn beards.

I often make around 80 to 100 stops within Milton Keynes, a rapidly growing centre of commerce and residence in the UK.

Often being looked at as a criminal or terrorist, since the horrible events of 9/11 - once that Bin Laden picture was published things got a lot worse for Sikhs like myself.

The bombing in London is the 'icing on the cake' for people like me. Often looked at suspiciously just for making a delivery of a parcel, and then even being asked if it is a bomb. This may be a joke to some people but when you hear it a few times it kinda gets annoying. I have always managed to keep my cool under most trying circumstances, I believe my philosophical nature has always helped me through these situations.

I am just hoping that the situation does not deteriorate further, it makes a terribly challenging job very difficult.

Why have I wrote this? Well I was hoping that people wiill be a little more considerate before condemning everyone, though you often find that forums such as these are seldom visited by anyone less than reasonably intelligent.........

Thanks
Raja

[AKSA]

Raj,

Thank you for your post.  Guys, Raj is a valued contributor whose posts on audio have always been apposite and intelligent, and with whom I've enjoyed long dialogue.  Interestingly, Darl Singh, my close NZ friend who built the first GK1 prototype to my design, comes from a Sikh background.  He has an Anglo Mum and tells me that when certain people hear his name, even in NZ, they don't want to talk to him.  I find this intensely disappointing, but it no longer surprises me.   It seems, particularly in these tough times, that people are inclined to prejudice based on superficialities.

The irony is that the Sikh religion has little to do with Islam;  the religion began 500 years ago in the Punjab and it's Saints and founders are drawn from Hindu and Islamic backgrounds.  The religion has a tradition of 'saintly warrior'.  There is no connection whatever to Islamic fundamentalism, and frankly, after hearing the profiles on the London bombers, I'm beginning to wonder if this is fundamentalism at all but simply cultism, the exploited anomie of disenfranchised youth, a kind of extreme disenchantment with growing up which is exploited by a criminal, politically active element.

Raj, I hope this ridiculous treatment of you improves;  you are a person of two cultures, and each is equivalent, and if others don't understand that, it's their loss.......

Cheers,

Hugh

[Bemopti123]

Raja, here even in NYC, there has been bias attacks against Sikhs since 9/11 and even as recent as last month.  I could tell blindly between a Muslim and a Sikh, but for many, who simply do not bother to learn the differences, anyone who seems to be remotely similar in skin tone or something else could be called a "terrorist."

Not to be off topic, but the types of people who were attacked and killed with whole terrorist fear, that verges on what I can ignorant hysteria, had the following nationalities either verbally or physically attacked:

Pakistani
Indian
Mexican
Ecuatorian
Yemeni

etc...

Eventhough we live in an extremely information based society, the way some people think, you wonder whether they were living in the Dark Ages.  
It is sad, but this is the world we live in.  

Paul

[soitstarts]

Sounds a lot like our governments. Attacked by Saudi Arabians and seek revenge on the Iraqis.

Ingnorance is not bliss, now days its dangerous. How many terrorists would approach with a package and obviously dressed "not like us". Remember the footage of the hijackers in the bars before their mission? They appeared to be "normal". Young men in "western" clothing out drinking..   Oh my god, I'm surrounded by Terrorists"

BTW, how many people do you think know that a group of children being handed sweets were targeted by a suicide bomber? 25 dead, mostly children. It happened after London and has already dissappeared off the headlines, thats OK, it happened "over there," they're used to it. I wonder how long it'll take before we're used to attacks "over here"???

You reckon I'm bad now?? Try having a few beers with me some time....

[Raj]

Hi Hugh,

thanks for the reply, wise words once again. I do hope you find time someday to write a book about your views on the social structures within society, and the barriers created by ignorance................

Thanks
Raja

[econ]

I dont recall a post on this forum or people expressing their horror here
at .

 B52s bombing Afghanis from a great height
 Western cluster bombs  which look very similar to food packages maiming children
 Military folk killing  members of wedding parties when  fire crackers go off celebrating the marriage.
 The razing of townships in Iraq
The torture  of  who knows how many by westerners on foreign soil.
The support by the west over so many decades  all over the world of regimes who have absolutely no interest  in democracy.

How often and for how long do you expect fellow human beings to endure such sustained abuse ,exploitation,  inconsistency and hipocrisy without   at some point firing back ?

How many countrymen of the  middle east,south americas, far east, have died at the hands of westerners or western policy since world war 2 ? We  dont know exactly because we dont bother to count them.
They dont to seem to count as much as ours.

I think any human  regardless of age, culture , upbringing , religion nationality  is capable of unspeakable horror  in the right circumstances..

But when we in the west become victims, our grief and horror is no greater than that of others who have  their lives destroyed  or that of their loved ones taken away.


Oh well,  our well bodyguarded leaders   must know what they are doing on our behalf  , musn't they?

[Bemopti123]

Econ, I agree with you, what you have said is all true.

and

yet, I see that what we are living in today is a "New World Order" to quote some famous politician in the way the world has organized itself today.

While some countries choose to expand its Imperial ambitions in more secret or subtle ways, there are others that decide to show that Force is the best method.  I call this a Republic that refuses to acknowledge that it is more an Empire than a Republic.

With all, one cannot stop a group of radical, impressionable kids from following some mad  and yet, silver tongued religious leader, especially when there is sooo much hatred and ignorance on a society towards a foreign culture that most people know little or nothing about.

Soitstarts, the most dangerous group of individuals are those who have especially nothing much to lose....disinfranchised culturally, socially, and with both together, economically.  

Although it sounds cynical and pessistic, what happened in the UK last week, might resonate, echo in the future in more sinister ways.  Unless, all Western countries decide to isolate themselves in impenetrable islands.  

Which makes me remember a couple of metaphors of things that cannot be stopped.  

A-A movie adaptation of the "Mask of Red Death" by E A Poe....in which a group of people thought that they could escape death, just to find out that it had been there all along.

B- "Blindness" a novel by Jorge Saramago, where a plague like disease spreads throughout the world, with governments unable to control its spread.  This blinding disease only stops when people truly begin to "see" what the world is all about.

Until people realize that we cannot have everything that we want in all terms...material comfort, infinite profit and growth, there will surely be more upheavals that will manifest themselves in not so subtle ways.  

Strange to think that some major Revolutions in the past century began, in the first years of the century and lasted a good 90 years.

Paul

[JohnnyLightOn]

How are we supposed to solve this terrible problem if we are lead by governments - on both sides - that do not tell their citizens the truth?  This is as upsetting an aspect of this terror war as any.  

Governments all over the Islamic world regularly lie to their populace.  They don't want to deal with a population that's either very poor or politically oppressed or both.  So they demonize the west in order to deflect the internal anger to an outside enemy.

Our own government can't tell the truth, either!  The reasons behind the war on Iraq is just one example.  Ask a patriotic American (and believe me, I am one) whether we have ever killed innocent civilians in other countries the same way terrorists did on 9/11.  They will say, "No!"  Guess again.  It's happened many times, even when there hasn't been a war.  The only difference is that we pay others to do it, rather than do it ourselves.  Ask the 100,000+ murdered Mayan indians in Guatemala who were tortured or shot to death and their bodies dumped in ditches for over a decade.  Who trained the army there and supervised them, and footed the bill for it?  We did.  It was because the United Fruit Company was trying to protect their land, 10% of which the impoverished indians had essentially nationalized, and this corporation has many powerful friends in Congress that they give campain contributions to.  Yet of course the politicians and military leaders will never be honest about the things we do, they always lie.  And many of our own citizens get so upset when people try to tell them what really goes on in our names, they are so weak as human beings they can't handle it.

It's like fighting a war blindfolded!  And we can't even see that the enemy includes our own leaders!

[econ]

It is gratifying to see that this issue is being discussed on this forum
with a great measure of respect , and a lack of hostiliity not often seen when debating such divisive topics.

JohnnyLighton I also agree with you.  I dont think the way America handles its external affairs is particular to that nation or its citizens.  If  some other overwhelmingly powerful group of people were transposed into this situation they may well behave in the same way. They may not. Who knows what it is that drives people in absolute power? But I strongly agree with you that truth on all sides is essential. Somebody in power needs to start the ball rolling about telling the truth. What are spin doctors , so much a part of our political system for if not to massage the story.?

Bmopti123

With all, one cannot stop a group of radical, impressionable kids from following some mad and yet, silver tongued religious leader, especially when there is sooo much hatred and ignorance on a society towards a foreign culture that most people know little or nothing about.

Could we not transpose a little here   like this

radical impressionable kids= recruits to the western armies who are volunteers after all
 
 silver tongued leader = Dubbya , tony ,johnny , sylvio (they all  misled us didnt they? )

ignorance of a foreign culture.= do any of us westerners know anything about middle eastern cultrure  ?

There is a measure of comfort from history. No Empire has ever gone the distance. Any power that has set foot far from its soil has eventually had to return to its boundaries.

I am particularly surprised  at the British here. Americans being relative newcomers to international politics might be excused for neglecting the lessons of history. But the brits cannot.
 For all their excursions beyond their shores over many centuries,
to africa, the middle east,  the subcontinent , the far east in hong kong
and for all their efforts at trying to subdue the pesky terrorist pilgrims of a nascent America ., look where they are now. And when somebody tried to come at them during WW2 look what happened.
 It just doesnt seem to work in the medium or long run trying to impose your system on another peoples with military power.

[DVV]

Terrorism is the only viable method of struggle small and poor have against the big and wealthy. No country in the world can parry the US count of nuclear missiles, and God alone knows, if even He, what else is stashed somewhere.

Yet, it's a fact that the US will not behave the same way with those that do not have nuclear weapons and those that do. This in itself is rather telltale, and helps us understand why the West, and the US in particular, are so dead opposed to nuclear weapons proliferation (beside the obvious fact that there are those in whose hands they would indeed be serious threats). All of a sudden, it has been forgotten that possession of nuclear weapons is a mighty deterrant, as it was during the Cold War.

As for England, as one who has lived there some years, I am naturally more attached to the country than an average person, but I cannot close my eyes to self-evident facts. Nobody like T. Blair and the UK followed US lead into ventures of highly doubtful quality and outcome. When the US took gunboat diplomacy to a new and higher level, only England followed without question. If 9/11 happened in NYC (which, BTW, unlike many others I happen to like a lot), it had to happen in London as well, sooner or later; if one is cruisading, one cannot afford to overlook the followers of the leader.

There's an old Persian (Iranian) proverb, which goes like this: there are three Statans. The small one is Israel, the big one is the US and the old one is England. Says a lot, doesn't it?

US policy, and by extension the UK policy as well, are ruled by a totally stupid premise that you can bomb the hell out of somebody, occupy his territory, and then introduce "democracy" by sheer weight of arms. This has never happened, and it never will.

Look at the results, particularly evident in my ex-country, Yugoslavia. The war in Bosnia solved nothing, it never could solve anything as we who live here know all too well, it was just the usual, sadly typical, Balkan cycle all over again. In WW2, Bosnian muslims sided with the Germans, they even had an all muslim SS division, believe it or not, called "Handjar" (a Turkish curved broadsword). They decimated local Bosnian Serbs, including my own family. Tito and his communist forgave them, nobody was prosecuted (well, 3-4 people were. but that's it). Croatians also sided with the Germans, created a hellhole called Jasenovac, which swallowed some 600,000 Serbs, about 40,000 Jews, and about 30,000 Romas (Gypsies) with such depravtity that even official SS records show the SS men to be appaled. They too got away with it, Tito forgave them as well, all because he wanted to be the king of the big hill.

When the old country broke up, old wounds opened. When the US ambassador told the muslim leader Izetbegovic that he didn't have to sign the peace treaty brokered by the EU, which would have avoided war in Bosnia, all hell broke loose. And it was way different to what the average Western newspaper reader was told. CNN never showed footage of muslim torturing Serbs, only to eventually behead them and play football with their heads - but this footage exists. It does not justify any other crime, to be sure, but the point is, you were told exactly what you had to be told to justify use of force to turn the tide of the war. As NATO did.

I won't even mention Kosovo, which is a story unto itself. Remember the "over 100,000" victims in mass graves? Only three mass graves were found, the worst containing 42 bodies, which in the end turned out to be local Serbs, so that story was killed quickly.

NATO goes into Bosnia - what happens? Nothing, it's still as divided as it ever was, if not more. Its chances of ever coming together are practically nil.

NATO went to Kosovo - what happened? Nothing, it was a serious crime den, specializing in drugs from Turkey (another trusty US ally), slave trade and weapons contraband. The local cops had it under some control, but after NATO came in, it's gone completely out of control. Since it's "liberation", Kosovo has become Europe's No.1 supplier of drugs and prostitutes. And it has all but completed its ethnic cleansing, a project of Great Albania which has been in progress since the 19th century. It's come to the point where they are blackmailing NATO and the West, saying the next turn of violence will be far worse than ever before.

Afghanistan is no different - drugs are still their No. 1 export item. Iraq is no different, although I imagine the US controls most of its oil. When the US was about to go to war, on this forum I said it would turn out to be a long, exhausting war, eventually much like Vietnam - and was called names by a few. Oddly enough, I don't hear from them much these days, while the US death toll continues to rise. And time is on their side.

Introducing "democracy" with weapons and armies will never introduce anything else but more violence and death. And eventually, it will shift, eventually the battleground will go elsewhere, as it has in NYC on 9/11, Madrid this march and now London. And this not the end, no, it's just the beginning. Unfortunately.

I worry about a few folks I know from Down Under. So far, nothing has happened there, but it's only a matter of time. Australia's low exposure simply means that it is low on the list of primary targets, but rest assured it's on the list.

What other choice is there for those who fight US plans? They don't have the resources, nor the organization, nor the logistics of a classic army. They cannot face anyone in an out-and-out classic battlefield battle. They cannot afford any of the high tech weapons. The best they can do is manage a "poor man's A bomb", a vial of biological weaponry stolen somewhere, some Semtex to blow something up, and so forth. And their plan is obvious - take the fight to the opponent's back yard. Make him learn how it feels. Make him have a taste of his own medicine.

Looked at like that, NYC, Madrid and London are no surprises. The only question is - who's next? They will not stop.

This will in turn cause new lines to be drawn. As Raj has pointed out, it has already started. And it will get worse, because the spiral of violence tends to rise, never to fall. Innocents will be hurt, causing more hate. The tempo will increase. In say 10 years' time, I think the US will be a hermetically sealed country. What that will do to its global position is hard to know, but whatever it is, it won't be good.

Cheers,
DVV