Speaker Performance - Spikes, platform, etc.??

Adz523 · « **on:** 4 Jul 2005, 11:29 am »

To reduce vibrations and achieve optimal performance, is it better to spike one's speakers onto carpet or put them on a platform. Also, any online recommendations on where to buy high quality?

PhilNYC · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Jul 2005, 11:43 am »

IMHO, spikes are the way to go. I've not yet heard a platform for speakers that has done a credible job at improving sound, whereas in my experience spikes improve things every time.

Steve · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Jul 2005, 02:17 pm »

I found spikes to help. Besides sand in the bottom of my speakers, I also put a 25lb bag of leadshot on top of each speaker. This also seems to help tighten the bass etc.

zybar · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Jul 2005, 02:21 pm »

Quote from: PhilNYC

IMHO, spikes are the way to go. I've not yet heard a platform for speakers that has done a credible job at improving sound, whereas in my experience spikes improve things every time.

Phil,

Have you tried the Sistrum platforms?

I have found them to improve the sound more than any spikes or other platforms.

They have many different sizes so that there is pretty much a model for each speaker out there.

George

PhilNYC · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Jul 2005, 02:28 pm »

George,

I've tried the Symposium sveltes, as well as a variety of DIY, maple, concrete, and other shelves.

Have not tried the Sistrum platforms, but I don't see them as a traditional "platform". I think one of the more important things that spikes do is to raise a speaker off the floor and create space between the front edge of a speaker and the floor...supposedly, bass waves travel along surfaces, and without that space, you get bass reinforcement coming off that intersection. The Sistrum platform does the same thing as spikes in this regard, so I'm not surprised they perform well. My objection to platforms is primarily focused on basic flat "boards" that a speaker would simply sit on...

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Jul 2005, 02:31 pm »

Adz,

> is it better to spike one's speakers onto carpet or put them on a platform <

Do you want to couple or decouple?

The usual goal is to decouple the speaker cabinet's vibration from what it rests on. This avoids two paths for the low frequencies to get to your ears: one through the air and the other (faster) through the solid floor. The difference in arrival times causes comb filtering, yielding peaks and nulls in the response.

As George noted, using isolation platforms is a common way to decouple speakers. I have my mains resting on pads made of two-inch thick 705 rigid fiberglass. You can also buy such pads, but they cost a lot more than the 75 cents the raw material cost me.

--Ethan

PhilNYC · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Jul 2005, 02:37 pm »

Quote from: Ethan Winer

The usual goal is to decouple the speaker cabinet's vibration from what it rests on. .

Hmmm...this is very different from what I've been taught. Most speaker manufacturers and audiophiles I know talk about coupling a speaker to the floor in order to keep the speaker from floating and "adding mass" to the cabinet, thereby improving the efficiency of the drivers (if the cabinet is rigid, then the drivers aren't losing efficiency to the inertia of the cabinet floating). Spikes are used to couple, not decouple...

Most speaker manufacturers design the damping of their cabinets under the assumption that the speaker will be spiked, so additional vibration damping of a cabinet may be overdamping the original design of the speaker...

_scotty_ · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Jul 2005, 04:11 pm »

My Reimer Teton GS speakers have an aurios ballbearing type of isolation built into the bottom of the cabinets and this has proved to very effective in isolating the speaker from the suspended wood floor in my listening room.
Scotty

Wayne1 · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Jul 2005, 04:29 pm »

A lot will depend on what type of floor your speaker rests on.

If your listening room has a sold foundation (concrete slab, etc.) then spikes might be the way to go.

If you have a suspended floor, isolation would be best to decouple the speaker from the vibrations and smearing caused by the interaction of the speaker and the flooring.

I have VMPS 626Rs on Sound Anchor stands on a suspended floor over a half basement. I use either JJAZ FOD or Herbie's Combat Boots to decouple the speaker from the stand. This gives me a far better image and tight, tuneful bass. Without the decoupling, the image is smeared and the low end is a one note drone.

Adz523 · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Jul 2005, 04:51 pm »

Basement - so concrete slab but fully carpeted with a thick pad.

If I don't care about my carpet (or I plan on being real careful) I assume the bigger the spike the better? I could use the ones that came with the speakers but they just don't look like they can get the job done with 150 lb speakers or I can get these pretty insanely looking massive ones -- http://www.polycrystal.com/Z-LIT-spikes.htm

Thoughts?

Tweaker · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Jul 2005, 06:20 pm »

Interesting subject. I have my speakers spiked (mass coupled) and the improvement was tremendous top to bottom, but of the several different types I tried only one sounded good. There is an interesting article about the pros of mass coupling and the cons of isolation at the Audiopoints website. Here's the link. http://www.audiopoints.com/proving.html

As far as spike size, I think bigger is better. The ones you have linked to, those aren't spikes, these are spikes! [url]http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/vibrationcontrol_main.php

nature boy · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Jul 2005, 11:18 pm »

I use the standard Polycrystal spikes under my Vandersteen 2ce Signature's w/ sand filled Sound Anchor stands. I have them setting atop some berber wall to wall carpeting and a thick pad over the basement concrete slab. The Polycrystal spikes tightened up the base and produced a noticeably cleaner sound. I don't think 150 lbs. speaker will pose any problem with the Polycrystal spikes, they are extremely well built.

Regards,

NB

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Jul 2005, 04:21 pm »

Phil,

> Most speaker manufacturers and audiophiles I know talk about coupling a speaker to the floor in order to keep the speaker from floating and "adding mass" to the cabinet <

I would expect any competent loudspeaker to have enough mass on its own to prevent it from rocking or vibrating in sympathy with the woofer.

> Spikes are used to couple, not decouple <

That doesn't make sense to me. The best way to couple a box to what it rests on is to let its entire bottom rest on that surface. It seems to me that spikes would reduce the amount of contact surface to a minimum, not maximize coupling.

No?

--Ethan

PhilNYC · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Jul 2005, 05:11 pm »

Ethan,

Yes, a competently-designed speaker should have enough mass to prevent it from rocking in sympathy with the woofer. But this assumes that the speaker cabinet itself is not moving. The example is this...try sitting on a regular chair and move your arms back and forth...then compare that experience sitting on a rocking chair. While this analogy is surely an exaggeration of what might happen with a speaker sitting directly on a hard floor, it is less of an exaggeration of what might happen to a speaker sitting on a thick carpet or rug.

Quote

That doesn't make sense to me. The best way to couple a box to what it rests on is to let its entire bottom rest on that surface. It seems to me that spikes would reduce the amount of contact surface to a minimum, not maximize coupling.

This is because you are thinking of it purely from a vibration dampening perspective. Surface area is not the question here...minimizing float and maximizing rigidity is. If you put a speaker flat on a slick surface (eg. ice) or non-rigid surface (eg. carpet), there is nothing to keep the speaker from sliding on that surface. Spikes will hold a speaker still on that surface. Surface area is a concern when you are looking to "drain" vibration (ie. diffusing vibration energy)...

If you read the descriptions of most 3rd party aftermarket speaker spikes, most will describe their function as "coupling your speaker to the floor".

Tweaker · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Jul 2005, 05:22 pm »

Ethan,
You want to couple the speaker to the floor, yes, but unless you do it with spikes you are not transferring the energy away from the speaker you are just creating another surface that will vibrate and create further resonance back into the speaker.That is assuming you have the speaker on a solid surface, if it's on carpet then there will be minimal coupling as a soft surface is going to act more as an insulator rather than a conductor. The spike/cone will create an efficient circuit/pathway to transfer the resonant energy from the speaker to the floor but also prevent the energy from the floor going back into the speaker. The Audiopoints website has several good papers that explain the theory behind this. Here is another link to one of them.
http://www.audiopoints.com/coulomb.html

_scotty_ · « **Reply #15 on:** 5 Jul 2005, 11:17 pm »

Here are links to Vistek INC. vibration isolation products.
http://www.vistekinc.com/index2.htm
http://www.vistekinc.com/products.htm
http://www.vistekinc.com/vip_isolation_platforms.htm
http://www.vistekinc.com/vip_isolation_tables.htm
http://www.vistekinc.com/vip_isolation_bearings.htm
These are products that offer bidirectional mechanical vibration isolation.
It should be noted that industries which have to control transmitted vibrations and isolate industrial processes from the effects of vibration or loose money as a consequence do not employ spikes for this purpose.
Interestingly enough dissipation of internally generated vibration as well as a measure of isolation from structure borne vibration seems to be a by-product of this type of vibration control.
It works on my DVD-player and loudspeakers, but offers no performance improvement on my preamp and power amp so far,go figure.
Scotty

zybar · « **Reply #16 on:** 5 Jul 2005, 11:20 pm »

Quote from: Tweaker

Ethan,
You want to couple the speaker to the floor, yes, but unless you do it with spikes you are not transferring the energy away from the speaker you are just creating another surface that will vibrate and create further resonance back into the speaker.That is assuming you have the speaker on a solid surface, if it's on carpet then there will be minimal coupling as a soft surface is going to act more as an insulator rather than a conductor. The spike/cone will create an efficient circuit/pathway to trans ...

I have drectly compared the Audipoints vs. the Sistrum platforms (which are Audiopoints + a proprietary platform) and thought that the platforms were better across the board.

George

Adz523 · « **Reply #17 on:** 5 Jul 2005, 11:57 pm »

Thanks everyone for the comments. I guess I'll go with the spikes from mapleshade (and report back) although I'm a little skeptical of a company that sells a liquid solution which purports to noticeably improve sound and video quality if rubbed on a CD/DVD.

ekovalsky · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Jul 2005, 12:38 am »

Quote from: Adz523

Thanks everyone for the comments. I guess I'll go with the spikes from mapleshade (and report back) although I'm a little skeptical of a company that sells a liquid solution which purports to improve sound quality if rubbed on a CD/DVD.

The marketing guys at Mapleshade (also PS Audio) are brilliant

They are not for speakers, but for CD transports and other delicate electronics the Solid-Tech "Feet of Silence" are hard to beat.

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Jul 2005, 04:25 pm »

Phil:

> Spikes will hold a speaker still on that surface. Surface area is a concern when you are looking to "drain" vibration (ie. diffusing vibration energy) <

This still makes no sense to me. Either you want to couple the speaker's vibration to the floor or you don't. I contend that you don't, because of the different sound transmission speeds I explained earlier.

> If you read the descriptions of most 3rd party aftermarket speaker spikes <

The problem is when I read that stuff I can't stop laughing. Adz's comment "I'm a little skeptical of a company that sells a liquid solution which purports to noticeably improve sound and video quality if rubbed on a CD/DVD" echoes my feelings exactly. How can they expect to be taken seriously when either 1) they have no clue, or 2) they do have a clue meaning they're obviously lairs?

Tweaker:

> The Audiopoints website has several good papers that explain the theory behind this. <

I read through the paper you linked and saw nothing that relates to the practical implication of loudspeaker isolation. In fact, other than for loudspeakers and turntables, all claims for mechanical isolation products are based entirely on pseudo-science.

--Ethan