[jmimac351]

I recently rescued a speaker with Accuton drivers.  It had to be done. 

Clearwave Loudspeaker Design Symphonia 1

The drivers in this speaker are top shelf Accuton and Scan-Speak

   • Accuton Cell C25-6-158: $554 each
   • Accuton Cell C90-6-724: $742 each
   • Scanspeak Illuminator 18WU/4747T-00: $356 each​

Unfortunately, the bottom end could be a bit more to my liking.  It sounds like perhaps the woofer was loaded in a smaller enclosure to try to help it be fast... like the Accuton.  There is a big mid-bass HUMP that I don't like. 

Frederick had the idea to "reverse the port" to see what happens... well, it got better. 

Then I remembered I have large 4" ports that will be used in the Duelund Coherent Audio Monitors we are building... how about those?

Well, it got even better - Deeper Bass / less mid-bass HUMP.

Hey, how about putting a little fiber fill in the port? 

Yep, even better. 

I have peeked inside and it's very tight confines in the bottom cavity.  EXTREMELY well made enclosure - ROCK SOLID.  Appears to have No-Res as well. 

This has been very interesting to hear the dramatic difference enclosure volume has on woofer response. 

As for the Accuton? AWESOME.  I am extremely impressed with those drivers, and it sounds like Jed Kunz did the network right.  This speaker came with Mundorf parts for the tweeter / mid network.  I have not dug into that yet but below is the network for the Scan-Speak woofer. 

It's not lost on me that I am a pair of (very expensive) 8" Accuton woofers away from having a custom Accuton 3-way speaker.  And with the taste I'm getting from the Tweeter / Mid... that could be really something.

I think this speaker needs a bigger box.  There is a horizontal shelf just above the woofer to seal the Accuton Tweet / mid in their own space.  The woofer just has the space below that, there is another thick brace, plus the wall thickness on a baffle that is already narrow.  And the speaker is not deep.  The Odyssey Lorelei that I had briefly had a SS 8545 woofer in it, and the enclosure what MUCH larger than this.  The bass was HUGE. 

This speaker, with bigger bass like that would be very impressive.  The Accuton is already right on, and ultra extended highs with zero fatigue. 

They are very special.  Maybe I'll ask the speaker design expert at GR, Hobbs, what he thinks about how an 8" Accuton 3 way will work out... 

I don't have my Line Arrays yet, so I keep buying speakers. 

I wonder if Danny has anything better coming soon...

[Early B.]

An uber-expensive Accuton woofer probably won't solve your issues, especially if the smallish enclosure is a limiting factor. My guess is that the best alternative will be a crossover makeover to dial in the bass. Anything beyond that probably won't be worth the investment. Why don't you ship one of the speakers to Texas for Danny/Hobbs to measure and provide options?

[jmimac351]

An uber-expensive Accuton woofer probably won't solve your issues, especially if the smallish enclosure is a limiting factor. My guess is that the best alternative will be a crossover makeover to dial in the bass. Anything beyond that probably won't be worth the investment. Why don't you ship one of the speakers to Texas for Danny/Hobbs to measure and provide options?

I would have a custom enclosure made for Accuton 3-way - not keep this same enclosure.

As Danny has mentioned... the low end is set by the enclosure.  I don't think this is a crossover issue.  I think the enclosure is just smaller than I'd like, for the sound I want.

Sharing this here because I thought it was interesting how I was able to get better sound out of it, playing with a tube.

Perhaps Hobbs will chime in here if he thinks he can fix what I'm describing with a network.

I'm listening to them right now.  I think the box is too small.  To fix it... I'm not a big fan of cherry finish (although these are nice).  I would round off the edges, sand, cut cavity in back to make lower back of cabinet "bracing", attach proper sized cavity to rear, add appropriate port, then finish in black.

It would have a bump out in the back, at the bottom. The Accuton would look better in a black speaker anyway, IMO.

[Early B.]

I would have a custom enclosure made for Accuton 3-way - not keep this same enclosure.

Oh, OK. These speakers will be parted out, and the Accuton pods will be repurposed into a custom cabinet along with an Accuton woofer. Cool! You're a wild & zany audiophile!!!

This will be about a 9-month process. You'll have to build a test cabinet(s). How will you determine the size and design of the cabinets? Ported or sealed? Rear ambient tweeter? Powered servo subwoofer on the bottom?

This will be fun. I'm gonna go and make some popcorn...

[jmimac351]

Oh, OK. These speakers will be parted out, and the Accuton pods will be repurposed into a custom cabinet along with an Accuton woofer. Cool! You're a wild & zany audiophile!!!

This will be about a 9-month process. You'll have to build a test cabinet(s). How will you determine the size and design of the cabinets? Ported or sealed? Rear ambient tweeter? Powered servo subwoofer on the bottom?

This will be fun. I'm gonna go and make some popcorn...

It's not hard.  It's just a box.

Like this one we're working on... "Duelund Coherent Audio Monitor".  My own custom version of the Wilson Duette I have and love.

How will I know?  Well, that's the easiest part.  I'm a genius, ya see...

I make friends with people who are smarter than me and I ask them for help.  Hobbs is a nice guy, too.

[Glady86]

You should look into a pair of subs so you can dial in the bass, trying to get good bass from full range speakers can be challenging without some kind of way to dial it in.

[jmimac351]

You should look into a pair of subs so you can dial in the bass, trying to get good bass from full range speakers can be challenging without some kind of way to dial it in.

Yeah I tried that.  I have 2 Rythmik F8 subs and a Rythmik F12 sub I just picked up yesterday locally.  I was able to make it a little better by playing with phase on the F8 subs to (I think) cancel out some of the HUMP from the speaker. 

However, when testing the longer ports I was about to make it much better without using sub phase to "fix" anything.  By playing with the port and "making the enclosure larger", it helped with the HUMP, all by itself. 

Just eyeballing it, the volume of that 4" OD port is a significant % of the volume of the cabinet for that Scan-Speak woofer driver. 

This is a different speaker (better) with that 4" port tube attached over the hole in the cabinet.  It is what it is.

The 8" woofers in my Duette have no trouble playing well and deep in this same room and this speaker shouldn't either given the driver that's in it.   

[Glady86]

Are you able to use REW to measure the response? The only cheap way to try and fix it is EQ, or high pass the problem frequency out of the mains and let the subs handle it, that is if it’s not to high up the bass band.

A Shcitt Loki + is cheap to try for EQ, but I don’t know if the two bass controls would help. Possibly need more bands of the higher end unit which cost a lot more.

[jmimac351]

Are you able to use REW to measure the response? The only cheap way to try and fix it is EQ, or high pass the problem frequency out of the mains and let the subs handle it, that is if it’s not to high up the bass band.

I have a pocket Clio I don't know how to use, yet.  I was digging into the speaker anyway and was able to chase this by ear.  The result was fairly dramatic so I figured I'd share it with others.  It's been interesting (to me at least). 

If it sounds better, it is better... and I rolled with it.

Thank you for the suggestions.

[fre11111]

I think part of the conversation that is getting lost is what is the optimum cabinet volume for the Scanspeak Illuminator 18WU/4747T-00? Madisound says that it is 1.0 cu ft tuned at 42hz.

[jmimac351]

Here are the specs:



This sez .41cu/ft for SEALED alignment, which is what I am going to try, and blend to 2x Rythmik F8 8" sub pairs.



Chamber Size Needed for Illuminator in Sealed alignment?





So, given the current size of the chamber for the Illuminator (about 22" tall), it appears I need to add about 10" of filler inside that chamber, to change the height to 12" - as spec'd above.  Based on these specs, I think I need to take up about half the volume of the current enclosure for the driver to make it "Sealed". 

Could be I just don't like this driver in a ported box in here.  I can make it sealed and blend it to a sub to dial in low end, and because these drivers are so robust with XMAX, I don't need to put a high pass filter on them to protect them - they are just playing low end anyway. 

I think I may try adding some sand... and just Listen.

[jmimac351]

Update!  Yes, I know you've been anxiously awaiting... I called Madisound to talk about this driver.  "Nothing definitive" for what's going on.  Mentioned a VarioVent.  No Dice.

Fred and I think perhaps this Scan-Speak Illuminator driver likes playing mid-bass and not so much 'deep bass'.  It plays very high and may have been picked for speed... to keep up with the Accuton.  I may have made that up, but it sounds plausible. 

I'm pretty sure an 8545 would play much lower in this box than this driver. 

GOOD NEWS - Frederick thinks I should just buy a few Accuton woofers have a network made for it.  What a guy!

The enclosure really is nice and is extremely well made... and the Accution Tweet / Mid really do sound good... 

I bet the M165NQ would sound better than this driver... and that is a fast, lightweight driver... Hmm... Hobbs!!!

WWHD?

[jmimac351]

Well, I am happy to report the speakers are "fixed". 

I am also happy to report there was nothing wrong with them...

You see, I got this new First Watt SIT-3 amp.  It sounds very, very special on the Wilson Duette 2-ways.  It was so disappointing to hear how bad the Clearwave speakers sounded...

As it happens, I shipped the SIT-3 to Danny and he will have next week. I am heading to GR next Wed / Thurs to play around with a few things.  I thought it would be a great idea to send some of my gear out there... and I really wanted to hear the SIT-3 of 95db, 8ohm speakers, his NX-Treme.  That is exactly the kind of speaker the SIT-3 is designed for. 

And that was when things got "fixed"...

With the SIT-3 on a brown truck, I hooked back up the Pass Labs XA30.8 and... BINGO!  PRESTO!  "FIXED". 

Although the "specs" for the SIT-3 say 4-8 ohm speakers, it appears this particular pair of 86db, 4ohm Accuton / Illuminator driver speakers want to be TOLD WHAT TO DO.

The speakers just need an amp with a healthy dose of current - and they loved it. 

People are cautioned about pairing the FW amps with the proper speakers.  On paper, this should have worked - and it did to a degree, but it just did not have enough control over the low end - and that is by design. 

The magic the SIT-3 has, on the right speakers, is really something. That amp is worth building a pair of speakers to hear. 

I am really hoping it works well on the NX-Treme, and that that will portend well for a pair of Epiphany 20/21 Line Arrays. 

We'll see.

Be careful with the First Watt stuff... Corvettes aren't made for going off-road - well, unless you carry too much speed and turn-in too early.   

I learned something.

[Glady86]

Any good quality amp will work well with the higher efficiency NX series. I used 3.5 watt tube to 200 watt solid state, I like the lower power 300b and 2A3 tube sound more than the solid state amps I own. Though I do have the speakers high passed at around 80hz, so it helps when using low power.

[jmimac351]

Any good quality amp will work well with the higher efficiency NX series. I used 3.5 watt tube to 200 watt solid state, I like the lower power 300b and 2A3 tube sound more than the solid state amps I own. Though I do have the speakers high passed at around 80hz, so it helps when using low power.

"Regular" Pass amps will drive anything.  I have a few of those.

I'm very hopeful the SIT-3 will pair perfectly with NX-Treme. 

I assume it will, but after what I experienced...even if the specs say it will... "Trust, but verify." 

[Stercom]

The speakers just need an amp with a healthy dose of current - and they loved it. 

Yep, current is the key for most speakers to provide quality bass. Many people think watts drive speakers but its actually current. Small watt amps with an excellent power supply and/or output transformer will usually provide quality bass. High watt amps with crappy power supplies and/or transformers usually sound thin. This is especially true if the impedance drops much below 4 ohms.

[Tyson]

This is why the servo subs are so good - sheer torque.

[jmimac351]

Yep, current is the key for most speakers to provide quality bass. Many people think watts drive speakers but its actually current. Small watt amps with an excellent power supply and/or output transformer will usually provide quality bass. High watt amps with crappy power supplies and/or transformers usually sound thin. This is especially true if the impedance drops much below 4 ohms.

Well, they asked for it... every 4ohm speaker has a plan until it gets punched in the mouth with 400w Class A!  I think about "I don't really need amps this big" and then I fire them up... glad I have them - they are as cool and pristine as the picture.

I know there are many who peruse this joint at 35,000 feet.  I have original boxes and personally transported these here from my friend in Sarasota, who bought them from the original owner's estate sale.  They were an "industry accommodation" on the East Coast.  They are a 2013 build (late in .5 build cycle), and I cannot find a single nick on them.  I have the original boxes, and a pallet.  I know they are very special, and there were not many of these actually built (ask Kent at Pass).  I know that some prefer the .5 over the .8, and I understand why - these are a bit sweeter than the .8, which can sometimes get a little "steely" in the highs (but are still great in their own way). 

If you or know a friend who has interest, I can be talked out of them... but you will have to want them.  I am in Central FL and can personally deliver in the Southeast... no stress / anxiety about "shipping something heavy". Feel free to reach out, but as I said... you will have to WANT them - and we can discuss.  I took a lot of effort to get them here safely, and it is a lot easier to let them sit exactly where they are - and manhandle multi-driver speakers I may not even realize I want in the future.

Many lower wattage .5 Pass are now under $5k - and are bullet proof.  Highly recommended (they are still awesome, even if .8 is out there).

[jmimac351]

This is why the servo subs are so good - sheer torque.

These speakers would be a great candidate for the plate amp idea Danny has mentioned in the past.  A plate amp just running this SS Illuminator with adjustments on the amp so you can dial it in.  I've seeing higher-end versions were you can hook up a laptop via USB and program in a filter / slope... it looks super slick.  I will find what I saw.

It is very true about subs and I understand why Danny wants to use those, in every application.  With these speakers, I've been able to "tweak" the output from them but playing with the crossover / phase of the sub. The sub is not just about playing lower, but it's helped cancel out problematic output from the main speakers. 

I know you know that, but I wonder how many realize a sub can fix many things in a system. 

However... not everyone can have separate subs!  A floorstander with simple plate amp in them... Oh, like the Bully! 

Narrow Baffle, please... 

[jmimac351]

And, for the record... I really like these speakers now. 

Jed Kunz did a really nice job on them.  The enclosures are as good as my Wilson Duette.  Mundorf / air core parts.  Top Shelf drivers.  I really like the outriggers with IsoAcoustics feet.  They don't take up a ton of space - no bigger than an XLS Encore on a stand. 

For the parts in this speaker, and how much they cost... I had to try them, and glad I did.