[S Clark]

Sensitivity is sacrificed when you want a smaller woofer to go lower in a smaller enclosure.  Also, many speaker manufacturers are grossly exaggerating their sensitivity.

Which is why you don't use a single smaller woofer in a smaller enclosure. The LS9 line sources are a good example of a big speaker sounding big.  Very hard to beat on large orchestral music... or stupidly loud rock. 

[DannyBadorine]

Or you can use a single smaller woofer in a small enclosure and get a more powerful amplifier (newer Class D) as long as that speaker can reach the desired SPL within the desired frequency range.  Not everyone can have a giant speaker system in their home or listening space.  But, giant speakers can sure be fun.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

That's assuming you can get a woofer with enough X-Max, motor structure & power handling to actually be capable of managing the additional power needed to match the same level of output, which is going to be a problem in a large room. In say a car or typical bedroom, that's a lot less of an issue.
But that's also why there's no "one perfect speaker" for all applications.

[Early B.]

Even if you can get a small woofer to go deeper in a small enclosure, do you really want to do that??? The fact that a midrange woofer can go down to 50Hz or 60Hz isn't the point -- the question is whether or not it's at the expense of lower midrange detail.     

[Tyson]

Even if you can get a small woofer to go deeper in a small enclosure, do you really want to do that??? The fact that a midrange woofer can go down to 50Hz or 60Hz isn't the point -- the question is whether or not it's at the expense of lower midrange detail.     

I owned several speakers using the ScanSpeak 8545 and also various Revelator midwoofers.  They were impressive because they could go very low and output a lot of bass in a small enclosure.  But they do sound a bit closed off and muted vs a lighter driver optimized for midrange first and bass second.

[Soonerbass]

I was wanting to try the subs that GR sells but they were having problems due to the shipping. Now I just don't feel the need after listening to how deep the bass is in my current set. I am extremely interested in hearing the open back speakers but I have to have a lot of convincing. I used to have a OG Nakamichi receiver the last model before selling out in 1982 or so and an OG 4 ft pair of Magnepan I used to drag around with me in college ,which I had a love hate relationship with. They were the dipole magnet and blond ash. The sound was wide clear and stunning but was all soundstage and no depth. That is what I imagine these open baffle drivers sounding like without any cabinet. I couldn't get any punch from them. We didn't have subwoofers back then. Didn't need them. Any thoughts? Also my BW Zeppelin mini BT speaker was similar in sound presentation. I could listen to it in the pharmacy while working at clear beautiful low volume.

[S Clark]

"Any thoughts?"
Yes.  Once you hear servo subs, you'll find solutions to your shipping problems.   The speed with which they play is something you haven't heard before. 

[Early B.]

I was wanting to try the subs that GR sells but they were having problems due to the shipping. Now I just don't feel the need after listening to how deep the bass is in my current set. I am extremely interested in hearing the open back speakers but I have to have a lot of convincing.

Words won't convince you. Where are you located? Perhaps you can visit someone here on AC who has GR Research OB speakers and/or OB servo subs so you can hear them for yourself.

[Soonerbass]

Absolutely. I am really interested in hearing Danny's gear. His channel got me back into hifi audio after all of the decades.

I am definitely dropping in on them with permission at a future date. Hopefully after March Madness. RE30 crossover redesign and Coral 12L-21 maybe mid-70's Japan. The 12L-1's I have are first gen and extremely rare.

[jmimac351]

I owned several speakers using the ScanSpeak 8545 and also various Revelator midwoofers.  They were impressive because they could go very low and output a lot of bass in a small enclosure.  But they do sound a bit closed off and muted vs a lighter driver optimized for midrange first and bass second.

I've experienced the same thing re: 8545 with my Merlin VSM I've owned for a long time and a pair of Odyssey Lorelei speakers I briefly owned.  The 8545 has the same bolt circle as the M165NQ driver and the network for it worked with the Esotar in the Merlin.  The M165NQ is MUCH more open sounding.  Bass from the 8545 is HUGE in the Lorelei. 

I would absolutely pick the M165NQ over the 8545, in that setup. However, I've sold the Esotar tweeters from the Merlin VSMs and I wonder... I bet the 8545 might be pretty interesting with the Neo 3 in the deeper waveguide crossing at 950Hz.  The flange for the Neo waveguide needs to be made a little bigger OD and it'll fit right in.  Could be that the compromise with the 8545 when crossing at 950Hz isn't as big a deal... could be really good.

[Tyson]

Only one way to find out!  Give it a try

[BrandonB]

I was wanting to try the subs that GR sells but they were having problems due to the shipping. Now I just don't feel the need after listening to how deep the bass is in my current set. I am extremely interested in hearing the open back speakers but I have to have a lot of convincing. I used to have a OG Nakamichi receiver the last model before selling out in 1982 or so and an OG 4 ft pair of Magnepan I used to drag around with me in college ,which I had a love hate relationship with. They were the dipole magnet and blond ash. The sound was wide clear and stunning but was all soundstage and no depth. That is what I imagine these open baffle drivers sounding like without any cabinet. I couldn't get any punch from them. We didn't have subwoofers back then. Didn't need them. Any thoughts? Also my BW Zeppelin mini BT speaker was similar in sound presentation. I could listen to it in the pharmacy while working at clear beautiful low volume.

I live in Oklahoma City also.  I have some triple threats and NX-otica's about to get up and running.  I should be listening to them in a few weeks.  You can also drive down to GR Research and listen to all the speakers Danny has.  It's only a 1.5 hour drive on the Oklahoma Texas border.  I have been down a few times and it's always a fun time.  If it was any closer
Danny and Hobbs might get tired of this guy hanging around.  Ron from NRD is not far from Danny and I want to go down and listen to the NRD speakers in his new room.  When Danny says come down and hangout and listen to music he is serious. 

[DannyBadorine]

That's assuming you can get a woofer with enough X-Max, motor structure & power handling to actually be capable of managing the additional power needed to match the same level of output, which is going to be a problem in a large room. In say a car or typical bedroom, that's a lot less of an issue.
But that's also why there's no "one perfect speaker" for all applications.

Indeed

[DannyBadorine]

Even if you can get a small woofer to go deeper in a small enclosure, do you really want to do that??? The fact that a midrange woofer can go down to 50Hz or 60Hz isn't the point -- the question is whether or not it's at the expense of lower midrange detail.     

This is certainly true.  It's certainly not a problem with Purifi woofers.

[Rusty Jefferson]

This is certainly true.  It's certainly not a problem with Purifi woofers.

There's no silver bullet. The Purifi woofers still have tradeoffs, the biggest would be giving up decent sensitivity to get deeper bass. That's not a hurdle for them because they also sell 400 watt clasd D amplifiers to make up for the reduced sensitivity, but is that what you want to use?  Then there's the port issues in very small boxes because of the enormous Xmax......  Everything in the hobby requires a compromise somewhere. 

[jmimac351]

This is certainly true.  It's certainly not a problem with Purifi woofers.

It would be interesting to hear how those hotshot drivers compare to the M165NQ for midrange detail.  I suspect physics is an issue.

[DannyBadorine]

There's no silver bullet. The Purifi woofers still have tradeoffs, the biggest would be giving up decent sensitivity to get deeper bass. That's not a hurdle for them because they also sell 400 watt clasd D amplifiers to make up for the reduced sensitivity, but is that what you want to use?  Then there's the port issues in very small boxes because of the enormous Xmax......  Everything in the hobby requires a compromise somewhere. 

I totally agree.  And yes, Purifi woofers and amps are definitely what I want to use because I think the technology is far ahead of everyone else, but it won't work for everyone in every situation because there are so many ways to approach this hobby.  Which is why it's so fun.

[DannyBadorine]

It would be interesting to hear how those hotshot drivers compare to the M165NQ for midrange detail.  I suspect physics is an issue.

Physics is the issue!! I would love to see the M165NQ measured on a Klippel or at hifi compass to compare the distortion.  I haven't heard the M165NQ so I can't comment on it but the mid range on the Purifi is the most accurate I've ever heard, which is reflected in it's measurements.

[jmimac351]

Physics is the issue!! I would love to see the M165NQ measured on a Klippel or at hifi compass to compare the distortion.  I haven't heard the M165NQ so I can't comment on it but the mid range on the Purifi is the most accurate I've ever heard, which is reflected in it's measurements.

Danny already knows this answer.  If you haven't already, you could ask him about this speaker:

https://www.pureartfi.com/ls-6

[DannyBadorine]

Danny already knows this answer.  If you haven't already, you could ask him about this speaker:

https://www.pureartfi.com/ls-6

I would love to hear about it, though I might already have some knowledge on it.  I believe I know the designer and the waveguide for the tweeter was originally made for some speakers that he and I designed based on the X statik but with a different mid/tweeter.
What secret information does Mr. Richie have on it?