[PhilNYC]

so for that I am willing to invest my time and no just open a drain for my money to go down..

I guess the issue I'm having here is this statement of yours.  It's one thing to pay for value (of which I am a proponent).  It's an entirely different thing to "open a drain for my money to go down", which (it appears) that you believe is the case for the majority of the high-end audio market.  I agree that there are a ton of ridiculously-priced gear out there.  I'll also agree that there are a ton of people in this industry that have questionable ethics, particularly in the "middlemen" (distributors, dealers, etc) that do nothing to help consumers find "value".  But I look at the manufacturers that i work with (all good people...my first criteria for deciding who to represent), and I don't see people who are out to drain consumers of their money.  I see people who love what they do, and try their best to make a business out of it.  I believe that the majority of the industry falls into this category...

[AKSA]

I think I can agree with Phil, while at the same time sympathizing with JoshK.

We always hear about high markups and profiteering, it's perennially a consumer legend to complain about high prices, particularly when we sniff out the 'real' price paid out of China.  However, there's another side......

Ever wondered how much that fancy hifi salon costs to run?  Rent, utilities, shopfitting, stock, salaries, staff training and holidays, transportation, warranty claims?  Phil mentions five times actual manufacturers cost;  that's about right in my experience.  But the irony is that all these on-costs are a result of market forces, driven primarily by consumers.

The buyer wants a nice shop, with fancy fittings, big stock selection, helpful, quality staff, and delivery/installation.  He wants the same price in Baton Rouge, Madison, NYC and Fairbanks, regardless of transportation costs.  He wants fully paid up warranties.  He wants a choice of three different finishes (this is furniture you know!!   ).  Each and every one of these consumer demands requires infrastructure, and nothing costs more than infrastructure, particularly marketing and distributorships.  And holding high end stock is risky, to say the least, you might never sell it, as the fads and fashions move very quickly in this industry.........

I operate a small kitset company, which is doing quite well.  But even with minimal advertizing and selling direct, my expenses routinely run to 90% of income, so making a buck requires very careful attention to detail and a lot of dedication.  Only a love of the industry keeps me going, I can tell you.

Cheers,

Hugh

[WEEZ]

My concern regarding the thread topic (Meadowlark) is that the 'news' tells a much bigger story.

For some time now, I have had a concern regarding what I call the 'WAL-MART-IZATION' of America. By that I mean- the 'always looking for the best price' syndrome. One doesn't have to look back very far to recall the closing of auto plants here in the U.S. while the parking lots were full of Datsuns.

One can look back even less far when Wal-Mart bragged about it's 'American' suppliers. Does anyone know of an American product of any consequence sold at Wal-Mart?

Don't get me wrong- I could care less where products are sourced. It's up to the consumer to decide.  

As a music lover first; and audiophile second; what DOES concern me is the lack of marketing in 2-channel audio these days. Is there really a lack of interest out there?- or has slick multi-channel marketing done a better job?

Frank Van Alstine says that marketing is 'selling crud to fools'- or something to that effect. So where's the high-end 2-channel marketing these days? Stereophile? Man that reaches a large mass audience.

Somehow, the high-end segment needs to collectively promote it's worth. I, again, refer you to the Feb. '05 Stereophile editorial. It speaks volumes. Problem is- they're preaching to the choir.

Is there an industry association for High-end audio? If not, should there be? How does high-end audio expand?

As to pricing- sure, there are products that are not worth their price. You'd have a hard time selling me a $7000 amplifier. But I'll bet there are many who could name 2-channel amps that will sound better than an equally priced surround-sound amp, right? So, how do we tell Joe six-pack? (no offense intended).

I apologize for the long rant here. But I just hate to see high-end 2-channel high fidelity music and it's manufacturers die as we enjoy ourselves here on the internet in our small club.

It needs to be a bigger club. A lot bigger.

Again, I hope it works out for Meadowlark. Equally important- I hope it works out for all of us.

[Rob Babcock]

It's the law of the jungle plain and simple.  Just because they know/knew how to make a kickass speaker doesn't necessarily mean they have any knowledge of marketing or business.  Perhaps in a better world simply making a nice product would be enough, but alas it's not.

Not to be argumentative, Hugh, but how about the guys that open the fancy store and staff it with assholes and offer piss poor service and sales?  That's what you very often see, with the stores pandering to HT and car audio, too.  So many of them have no concept of customer service or what it means to stand by their product.  Then they moan when they can't make a go of it!   Let 'em starve.

And to be frank, I get a little tired of people bitching and moaning about how hard it is to make a buck in their industry.  Well, it's hard to make a buck in any industry, and while everyone seems to think theirs is more cutthroat, all fields have their own overhead and special problems.  I had a discussion with the manager of a major theater over the trend towards playing commercials before the feature.  Of course, his justification was rattling off the same damn list of expenses mentioned here.  

In the end, whatever the consumer will tolerate will continue, whether $5,000 ICs, crappy service at McDonalds or a spate of ads before their movie.  And when the consumer has finally had enough, they vote with their wallets.

[Panelhead]

I think that Brian and Hugh have done a fantastic job. Both are still solvent.
  Many of my early faves are long gone; Superphon, Vortex, Acoustat, Apogee. I paid my hard earned and enjoyed the product. Missed them once they closed.
  Almost purchased a modest pair of Brian's speakers once, a guy Jim Romyrn or something close had me sold on them. I screwed up and purchased a pair of Celestion's instead. The SL-6's did not stay long. No jump, the VMPS speakers had jump in spades.
  The ASKA gear looks real nice to me now. Lots of happy owners out there.
  A long record of offering value, service, and quality is only s small part of it. Being a smart business man, and luck are also involved.
  Most audio manufacturers just are not smart business people. They are in it because they love doing it. I could never make it. I fall in the that catagory.

                                 George

[AKSA]

Hi Panelhead,

Thank you for your gracious comments!  If it were not for a very cost conscious approach, Aspen would be broke too, I assure you!!

Rob Babcock wrote this:

Not to be argumentative, Hugh, but how about the guys that open the fancy store and staff it with assholes and offer piss poor service and sales? That's what you very often see, with the stores pandering to HT and car audio, too. So many of them have no concept of customer service or what it means to stand by their product. Then they moan when they can't make a go of it!  Let 'em starve.

I believe we agree - why do you think I sell direct, and avoid 'salons' at pain of death?  Two brushes with these guys locally here in Melbourne was enough for me.....  They wanted 100% markup, guaranteed delivery of up to ten hand made units within 24 hours, all sales on consignment with no cash down, business plan for marketing (at my expense solely) and 90 day payment terms with penalties for late delivery and warranty claims.

Only the lonely..........


Cheers,

Hugh

[Rob Babcock]

I believe we agree - why do you think I sell direct, and avoid 'salons' at pain of death? Two brushes with these guys locally here in Melbourne was enough for me..... They wanted 100% markup, guaranteed delivery of up to ten hand made units within 24 hours, all sales on consignment with no cash down, business plan for marketing (at my expense solely) and 90 day payment terms with penalties for late delivery and warranty claims.

Only the lonely..........


Cheers,

Hugh  

Sounds like the situation is the same in Oz as the US.   While some B&M stores will always exist, most of the best deals are 'net and direct sales, IMO.

[BeeBop]

For some time now, I have had a concern regarding what I call the 'WAL-MART-IZATION' of America. By that I mean- the 'always looking for the best price' syndrome.

So true...

... I feel more sorry for Watertown..

Small town USA, its retail sector gutted by Walmart, it's manufacturing sector gutted by outsourcing. It's damn near Dickensian.

[woodsyi]

Some of you have been "audiophiles" for so long, you may not have a broad perspective of an "average" consumer who likes to listen to music.  I have only been down this esoteric audio path for a couple of years.  So I can tell you my perspective.  I think I fit a certain profile of those who would be a customer for this high end industry:  middle age male with disposable income and modicum of education (think he can read and learn anything) who is either single or with mate who is tolerant of his collecting the latest gadget in techological fronts who loves music.  Until I was exposed to an B&W-ARC setup a couple of years ago, I thought Dahlquist, Alison, Yamaha, Polk, Snell, Sony ES and the likes were the best out there.  I agree that the high end industry should have a marketing strategy to target more customers like me who would spend the money if they only knew what is out there.  The truth is that midfi and Best Buy audio products are perfectly servicable for most of consumers.  Somehow this industry has to be able to get the point accross that music reproduction can be better to those who are wanting more but doesn't know that they are missing it.  Just my two cents from a recent convert!

[skrivis]

As an accountant/financial advisor I've seen plenty of small businesses and owners run themselves into the ground either because they don't know how to operate a business from an operational and financial standpoint, or they're not willing to seek out advice from someone who does.

Speaking of that... a lot of communities have groups of retired businesspeople who will help and offer advice for free. It's a great way to get help for your small business.

[mcgsxr]

First of all, it is always sad to see a company that produces good products go under.  I have never owned a set of the Meadowlarks, but I liked the design of them (simple 2 ways mostly, often with low order Xovers, and BEAUTIFUL cabinets, to me) and would have been interested in a set longer term.

Next, DIY versus purchase - this is an interesting one, and one that has so many facets, that it comes as no surprise to me that people all have their views!  When I used to build motorcycles, I did it for me - I used parts from a variety of places, but assembled things that I liked, and had fun with.  I was always able to sell them off for more than they cost to make (TOTALLY discounting the hours I had in them, as that for me was a labour of love) so they must have been at least marginally marketable.  For audio, I do DIY for similar reasons, but am not interested in learning as much about it, as I was with bikes - perhaps spinning wrenches and lifting heavy parts appeals to me more than deftly soldering - who knows.  I can see that some people do DIY to save $$, others because they want to learn more about it, and still others who just HAVE to know how stuff works!

In the end, I agree that the market will always ultimately decide - there are small manufacturers around here that I support, because I like what they build, and the prices are good.  Totally subjective right?  What sounds good to me, might sound like crap to you, and good value to me, might simply be wasted money to you!

Funny that way isn't it?

I have to say, that it saddens me that small, enthusiastic companies fail so often, for a broad variety of reasons, BUT, it also motivates me to support the "good guys" around here, in the hopes that they will be around longer, and devise new fun kit, that even I can afford!

[skrivis]

In the end, whatever the consumer will tolerate will continue, whether $5,000 ICs, crappy service at McDonalds or a spate of ads before their movie. And when the consumer has finally had enough, they vote with their wallets.

Unfortunately, by the time the consumer gets fed up, the game is often over. Walmart is a good example. They don't pay their employees well, and offer little or no benefits, so the taxpayer ends up subsidizing Walmart when their employees need medical care.

There has been a growing backlash against Walmart, but a lot of the damage has already been done. There's not much alternative to Walmart because they've already forced the competition out of business.

(Note that Costco, for example, does pay their employees well and offer good benefits, and it still has low prices. This makes me think that someone at Walmart is making obscene amounts of money.)

[skrivis]

First of all, it is always sad to see a company that produces good products go under.  I have never owned a set of the Meadowlarks, but I liked the design of them (simple 2 ways mostly, often with low order Xovers, and BEAUTIFUL cabinets, to me) and would have been interested in a set longer term.

Next, DIY versus purchase - this is an interesting one, and one that has so many facets, that it comes as no surprise to me that people all have their views!  When I used to build motorcycles, I did it for me - ...

Meadowlark was one of the few speaker companies that did things I agree with. However, I found some of the cabinets to be a bit odd.

It's difficult to DIY with speakers. Much of the off-the-shelf drivers may not be very suitable for anything but non-linear systems. You have to work with the manufacturer to get what you want because their stock items are designed for the lowest common denominator. Custom drivers may not be very cost-effective for the DIYer.

Digital active crossovers may make some of this easier, but then you still need test equipment to verify that what you've done works.

Cabinets are another area that cause problems. Good cabinets tend to be complex and require skill to make. Good tools are expensive too.


Actually selling speakers you make is even more complex because you have to be able to translate this wonderful design you came up with into something you can repeatedly and predictably produce and then ship to the consumer.

I once built a pair of cabinets in a truncated pyramid shape, with sloped-back front baffle, and it was a transmission line so there were sloped baffles inside too. All the coumpund angles gave me fits. I was able to get it to come together, but I shudder to think what producing 100 pairs would be like. That involves an entirely different set of skills to make happen.

[avahifi]

"Owning and enjoying audio playback equipment that can give you the experience of enjoying music for the sake of the music" is the message that is gone from the market place.

For many years the major mass producers (Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood, etc.) used to put that message out to the mass market buyers.  Hi End audio was able to essentially ride along on those coat tails, with a supplimental message "true, and we can do it for you even better."

Listening to music for the sake of the music is a basic human experience over the eons that has not and will not go away.  However, the mainstream message now has changed to "devices to enhance your lifestyle" or whatever.  Certainly audio has been religated to an accessory to your TV set or computer, or a way to have pleasant background tunes as you biddleybop thru the day.  Certainly nothing to try and grab your attention and make you LISTEN.  That would be a distraction to your lifestyle.

Lifeless compressed web downloads, horrid video sound tracks, and throw away components reign now as the marketers are succeeding in destroying the experience of music for the sake of the music for everyone.

Perhaps its time for the remaining builders of true high fidelity audio components to think about banding together and figuring out how to put the message that "great music reproduciton is good for your soul" back out in the mass marketplace.

I donated and delivered and set up a complete $8000 AVA music system to a local Montessori school yesterday.  I did it because the school still actually teaches true music appreciation to children.  You should have seen the look on the kids faces when they heard the music for the first time with the clarity, transparency, and emotion we (this industry) can deliver.  You should see the joy of the teachers as they realized how much better they can teach music appreciation when the kids can actually hear the music.

As long as you remaining audiophiles are most concerned about brands of cables and colors of capacitors, you are not going to reach your friends and neighbors and all those who have never experienced a high fidelity music playback system and would be astonised if they did.  These audiophlake priorities just make you seem like "nuts" to them, with some justification.

Can you spread the message that "a great music reproducion system brings peace to your soul" without having them trip over the firehose cables and $5000 power conditioners?  Your "toys" are going to go away unless you can help change the mainstream advertising message of "cheep plastic is not all that annoying" to something better.

I've got 200 grade school Montessori kids being exposed to music done right now, and with teachers that care that it is.  Maybe they will bring their school experiences home to their parents.  I hope so.

Lets get the right message out there and people will listen, because the music is good for your soul.  They just need to be reminded of that.

Frank Van Alstine

[byteme]

music is good for your soul

What a great tag line!  Is that copywrited?  

Excellent message though Frank.  Many of my friends love music and spend a lot of time listening to it - in their cars, the office, while doing other things at home...  Through crappy boom boxes, bose car radio's, etc.  They think it sounds just fine.  When they come by the house and see my modest system most think I'm a freak.  Little do they know that I'm not even close to the edge!!  They also balk at spending more than $1000 on the audio portion of a "home theater" system saving the bulk of their budget for a TV.  Trying to get a reciever, dvd player, 5 speakers and a sub for around $1000 is damn near impossible and sounds exactly like you would expect it to.  When people ask what I've spent they typically just laugh after I tell them.  Even after they've heard what's possible for most it just isn't worth it to them.

[Marbles]

Great message and great example Frank.....

Not only is music good for your sole, but your body as well.  I know I will live longer because when I listen to music it relaxes me...the stresses of my day wash away.

[woodsyi]

Great message and great example Frank.....

Not only is music good for your sole,  

It's good for the toes, too.  Like toe tapping.......

[Carlman]

I agree with Frank... Great post.

Most small businesses I know prioritize their image, company message, and how they are positioned in their marketplace behind producing a great product.  This can work but often doesn't.  You can have a crappy product that is perceived as good and make tons of money... i.e. Bose, Monster, etc.. or have a great product and no image beyond "some guy told me they were good..."

I think a balance is easily achieved but it still costs money to accurately market your company.  There's still no guarantee that it'll be successful but the chances are better than doing nothing.

I started a business helping smaller companies develop an online presence... a 'perception' of that company rather than a simple list of products they sell.  There's a lot more to it than a decent website. But I try to help businesses succeed at a reasonable price... and give advice on next steps for free.  Some follow it and some don't.  In either case, I like trying to help 'the little guy' but the most rewarding is helping the little guy that's open-minded and willing to at least start marketing themselves accurately.

-C

[doug s.]

I agree with Frank... Great post.

Most small businesses I know prioritize their image, company message, and how they are positioned in their marketplace behind producing a great product.  This can work but often doesn't.  You can have a crappy product that is perceived as good and make tons of money... i.e. Bose, Monster, etc.. or have a great product and no image beyond "some guy told me they were good..."

I think a balance is easily achieved but it still costs money to accurately market your company ...

i agree w/frank, too.  but, i agree w/byteme more.  at the end of the day, even tho "joe six-pack" *can* recognize that a quality system sounds much better than the $1k rack system, he's yust not interested.  this is how it's *always* been w/hi-end audio, tho.  the only difference now, is that "home audio" itself has changed, to encompass home theatre.  but, even 20+ years ago, when i first got into it, the lament was the same:  "if only we could get the masses to hear music on a *good* system...  i am sure this was the case, even 20 years before *i* got into it, & even 20 years before *that*.

doug s.

[tubeytubeamp]

This is a shame. What's more of a shame is that my dopey dealer probably doesn't know about this and will continue to charge customers list price. There were numerous times that I inquired about a product he knew nothing about. Just last week, I asked him if he can still get Mission speakers. His reply, "They are no longer available in the us". My answer, "Yes they are, Mission now has their own distributer Mission USA".

I can't knock the guy though, his has given me some great deals over the years.

Maybe I can get a pair of Swallows for 10% over list if I haggle with him.

Dennis