[cryotweaks]

There are too many reasons to mention why high end audio still suffers.  This is nothing new.  What hasn't changed over the years is the industry's inability to create awareness, and to get past the snob/geek stereotype.

I am doing my best to create awareness for the "little guys" in high end audio. I'm still working on the geek thing however.

[ohenry]

What hasn't changed over the years is the industry's inability to create awareness, and to get past the snob/geek stereotype.

My sentiments exactly regarding the snobbery.  Most brick and mortar stores are intimidating to "normal" people and to many audiophiles.  You need an appointment in many cases and you can easily draw sneers from the obligatory staff of audio nazi's when inquiring about the wrong brand name or the price of equipment.  And god help you if you happen upon the never-been-laid EE student/sales clerk that has no life except for the "pursuit of importance through audio".  This has always been and always will be as long as one-deminsional losers are employed to sell products.  And that negative perception is hurting the high end audio business most of all.

Before the advent of the Internet and the ability to converse directly with the decent people who manufacture products, I rarely shopped for new equipment and went 15 years without a change.  Then with much apprehension, I called Ed Schilling and learned that my past experiences with sales dicks didn't transcend the industry.  Unfortunately, most tepidly interested buyers will never make it past the local frontline nazi's.  

[LordCloud]

Try being black and wearing jeans and a t-shirt. The one audio shop I go to here in Utah is actually very nice, and I like all of the sales people (they are the only audio shop I know of that employs one of the best looking women you'll ever see). They have always been nothing but great to me. But the owner is another story, I walked in once wearing jeans with holes in the knees, the guy looks at me like I'm going to steal something at any moment, and then asks me (in that you look seem like you don't belong here, these things are expensive type of way) if I need any help. I say no of course, I've been there a million times and I know more about the stuff he carrys then he does. He then tells me that they usually have a sales person demo the equipment (i.e. don't touch any of my shit), and then proceeded to stare me down as I walked to the back of the store, and then he got someone to "help" me, who of course knew who I was and left me own listening.

Some of you may say, there's nothing wrong with that, he was just doing what's normally done. To you all I say, you haven't been paying attention, and I know how things are normally done.  I would also say you're not a young black guy living in the  "whitest" state in the union. I left that day with no want to ever spend another dime in that store. Not that I was making mega buck purchases in the first place, but I had always thought highly of them and would have recommended them above any shop here in Utah. The owner changed my feelings about them just that fast.

The snobbery in high end audio is ridiculous and it will be our downfall one day. I have never expereinced that from Meadowlark audio, I have a pair of their speakers and I love them. I am sad to see them go if they really are going.

[ctviggen]

White people get passed over/ignored, too (though I'm sure not to the extent of people of race).  My girlfriend and I went to a lighting store in a ritzy section of CT, and no one made any move to help us.   We ended up walking around but not buying anything, just because I wanted three "matching" lamps -- two bed lamps and one floor lamp, and not only did they not have this setup, but the lamps would have been probably at least $600 on the cheap side and probably easily get near $1,000.  

In AZ, I used to go shopping (with a friend, who ended up buyin a lot of stuff) in high end stereo stores all the time.  I also bought "beginner" equipment, like Creek and Mirage.  It was interesting to listen to Dynaudio, Krell, Wilson, Dunlavy, etc.  Now, though, I buy almost all my gear used, because the used market is so good.  I've purchased my Proceed AVP, Proceed PMDT, Jeff Rowland, Bryston, Linn 5140/5120, Pioneer Elite gear, etc., all used.  The only thing I've purchased new is my RM40s/RM30c and interconnects/speaker wire.

[art]

I deliberately keep a low profile so that I can walk into any high-end store, and be treated just as rudely as you guys are. What they don't know is that I am scouting out stores for my friends, all of whom run companies you guys would recongise. None of my friends want to have dealers that treat potential customers as pond scum. Which is what too many high-end stores do. Their loss..........

Pat

[woodsyi]

You know I was on a consumer panel that used to pay me to shop at a designated store.  There was a form to fill out that graded the store for different situational responses.  Sometimes you were asked to return a product  and grade the customer service......

Would AC possibly organize something like that and have ordinary AC volunteers visit a store and report the findings?  Someone would have to prepare a uniform evaluation form.  It would be reported in critics circle for customer service.  It would be good to get a store response and post it at the same time as well.  I would volunteer to go into any store around greater Washington DC area........

[doug s.]

You know I was on a consumer panel that used to pay me to shop at a designated store.  There was a form to fill out that graded the store for different situational responses.  Sometimes you were asked to return a product  and grade the customer service......

Would AC possibly organize something like that and have ordinary AC volunteers visit a store and report the findings? Someone would have to prepare a uniform evaluation form. It would be reported in critics circle for customer service. It would be good to get a store response and post it at the same time as well. I would volunteer to go into any store around greater Washington DC area........

be careful if you go into soundworks...  

doug s.

[tubeytubeamp]

You know I was on a consumer panel that used to pay me to shop at a designated store. There was a form to fill out that graded the store for different situational responses. Sometimes you were asked to return a product and grade the customer service......

You were a mystery audiopile shopper. cool.

[Mad DOg]

Even after they've heard what's possible for most it just isn't worth it to them.

i love music and i love it even more when it is reproduced by an amazing sounding system. because of my passion for great sound, i love to help promote this industry by involving myself w/ the la & oc audio society as well hosting listening sessions. i want to help spread the awareness that Frank was talking about. but even after many folks have heard what is possible, as doug and byteme have said, most determine it is not worth it to them. why is it that they don't feel it is worth it? it's pretty simple. they simply can't afford it.

let's just take a look at the avg household income of "joe six-pack" who is married, wife has popped out 2 kids, and owns a house...

let's take the high side and assume that it is $70K/yr. that breaks down to $5.8K/month assuming they don't participate in a before tax investment/retirement plan before Uncle Sam gets his mandatory cut. after Sammy gets his cut of say 25%, they're left w/ $4,350. housing incl prop tax and insurance will be say, $1,500. they're down to $2,850. two car payments and insurance will be $850. they're down to $2,000. food for a family of 4 might be $800. they're down to $1,200 utilities will be another $200. they're down to $1,000 other incidental expenses such as gas, entertainment, and other stuff might run another $500 if this isn't a heavy shopping family. they're down to $500 left for disposable income! and this scenario doesn't account for any pre or post tax retirement savings, vacation funds, lessons for kids, private school, kids' college fund, etc.

now let's put together a budget van alstine based system...

omegastar preamp: $600
omegastar 240EX amp: $900
biro l/1 speakers: $1600
any ol' budget dvdp or cdp: $200
misc cables: $30 for 2 prs IC and 1 pr of SC
shipping: $120
total: $3450

$3,450 is 5% of this family's annual income. most people can't justify spending 5% of their annual income on a music system. which is why folks look as us like we're nutso!

[Carlman]

To further emphasize your point, that 3450 is over half of their annual disposable income.... and doesn't include any music....

[Marbles]

     

I just found out I was crazy      

[jackman]

     

I just found out I was crazy      

I could have saved you the trouble and told you that from the start!  I just assumed you knew!

Adios,

J

[Mad DOg]

To further emphasize your point, that 3450 is over half of their annual disposable income.... and doesn't include any music....

yep, that's right

[Mad DOg]

     

I just found out I was crazy      

does it make you feel better to know that at least you're not alone?  

[WEEZ]

But I'll bet they've got a $3500 TV set with 7 crappy surround speakers..

 

[Mad DOg]

But I'll bet they've got a $3500 TV set with 7 crappy surround speakers..

 

ah, true! but it was probably purchased on a good guys/best buy/circuit city/ken crane's 24 month same as cash plan which works out to a little less than $145.83/mo...

[woodsyi]

I have a modest proposal for the highend audio gear companies.  You have to get in on the NEW HOME option list.  For all those who cringe at spending $10 on a CD would think nothing of spending $2000 on a refrigerator upgrade.  Get a complete Home Entertainment options:  $5k, $10k, $20k and a $50k package financed at 30 year mortgage rate!  And write off the interest (?)

[Mad DOg]

I have a modest proposal for the highend audio gear companies.  You have to get in on the NEW HOME option list.  For all those who cringe at spending $10 on a CD would think nothing of spending $2000 on a refrigerator upgrade.  Get a complete Home Entertainment options:  $5k, $10k, $20k and a $50k package financed at 30 year mortgage rate!

actually, that's probably not a bad idea at all. that way your complete home entertainment system will be tax deductible as part of the mortgage interest.

[nathanm]

There's just way too much emphasis on price.  I make it a point to never tell any non-audiphiles what I spent on my gear if they are listening to it.  If they think it sounds great they will think "So what I can't afford it".  If they think it sounds mediocre they will think "So what, this is an insane hobby for cuckoos."  Rattling off multi-thousand dollar price tags just further enforces the view of audiophiles not as conisseurs of fine sound, but rather goofballs with expensive toys.  Once you introduce the dollar signs into the persons head the whole thing gets messed up.  But moreso than the cost, I think people are just not interested in the two things required for the fancy hifi experience:

A) Active listening
B) Dedicated room

Even if they can afford it non-audiophiles don't want to sit calmly and listen nor do they want to dedicate a room to music listening.  So therefore the things which truly and cheaply enhance the sound (speaker positioning, acoustic wall treatment) isn't going to happen.  The non-audiophile doesn't understand why the speakers need to be away from the walls, sitting in the middle of the room.  I think it's not so much the price, but the level of concentration as well as domestic rearrangement that non-audiophiles aren't interested in.  To me the gear is secondary to the act of active listening.  If you can sell your friends on that only then you can start selling them on pricier, higher-performing equipment.

As much as I did not want to admit it, my friend's dirt-cheap Polk bookshelf speakers sounded just fine in my foam-lined room.  The symmetrical placement and absorptive surfaces allowed them to perform better than if they were stuck into a huge wooden shelf unit or sitting next to a giant TV screen as they would be in his own room.  But he's not any less of a music-appreciator than I am just because he's got a cheap system and lousy acoustics.  Just different priorities I guess.

[Red Dragon Audio]

Skrivis,

Costco doesn't advertise on Television.  That probably saves them millions of dollars each year that they can give to their employees.

Wal Mart does.

Costco has annual membership fees.  They've been around long enough to know what the their turnover rate is, and they know they are getting that money every year so they bank on it.

Wal Mart doesn't.

Costco might have one store for any given area depending on the population.  

WalMart will have 5 stores in that same vicinity.

Costco makes you buy their stuff in bulk.  Wal Mart doesn't.


I have many complaints with Wal Mart but we as consumers have voted with our wallets at Wal Mart so they will stay for a while.  We've also done the same with Costco and they're not going anywhere either.


It's really too bad Pat isn't answering his phone or returning calls.   I met him at CES a few years ago and was a really nice guy.  I hope he's just on vacation or something and totally spaced out...of course that's wishful thinking isn't it...