The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?

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_scotty_

The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #60 on: 10 Mar 2005, 11:25 pm »
denverdoc, what are your decision making criteria for chosing audio components.  You have made a good case for the fallibility of  chosing
electronic components and cables based on how we think they sound when
compared to each other. What standard or reference, if any, should one use to arrive at a decision.  Scotty

denverdoc

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #61 on: 11 Mar 2005, 02:30 am »
Scotty,

Good ? tho I suspect i am being baited here a bit as in well if the ears or the material in between is so unreliable how does one go about buying things.

Lets start with the most subjective and difficult: loudspeakers. Say I had 5k to spend and wanted to buy tomorrow. First, I wouldn't. I would either wait for a local event like the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest or get there: this opens things up considerably. At that price range +/- 1000 might be couple of dozen contenders. Day 1: Cut it to 6, and never mind if the room had been better treated, etc Brand X might have made the grade. There may be exceptions, but in general this reflects the attitude of the parties concerned. Day two: cut to three. (having fun yet?) At this point arrange a home audition either by freight or locally, but never ever break the most important rule of buying speakers you have not heard in your own home w/o a clear refund policy!!!!!!!!!!!!


The only measurement I would insist on making is that of impedance--all other things being equal, would avoid any speaker with odd behavior or deep dips--these tend to be the most amp/cable sensitive. Another caveat would be to be careful to avoid listening solely to your favorite well recorded tunes, this screws up objectivity big time as one speaker might  well bring you close to mental orgasm with a particular cut. Play some sub par recordings and stuff that is on the seldom played stack--if the speaker draws you in, this may be worth noting.

As for electronics: lets say you're not building from scratch, but upgrading.
Start with amps, no ? here: decent build, good company, and low cents/watt ratio. If one can simultaneously audition similar amp at the highest dollar/watt figure, with help of friend A/B/X pair to see what differences might be apparent, loop here to beginning.

With sources, similar strategy, but sometimes these are featured based. If it sounds as good as the last, buy it.
 
Now we are into the netherworld. I use paired 14 guage speaker wire. I have tried to ID differences between this and more costly alternatives, and in fact used Kimber cable for a long time. Unless the runs are very long where build up of L-C-R filter may contribute, just don't sweat these decisions, and when audio salesperson suggests I am missing the boat, challenge him to the A/B/X test. Never had one agree where if they failed to ID the proper cable, after 30 minutes of extolling its virtues, I'm out of there.

IC's I either make from good parts or buy from quality net sources. i may be missing out here, but the money saved sent to room treatment pays consistent dividends.

Your turn or anyone else--actually this may make a good thread by itself--how do you go about making purchases?
John

_scotty_

The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #62 on: 11 Mar 2005, 04:54 am »
denverdoc,  you were being baited to a degree, it looked like you were headed for Tom Nousaine territory, in which any component with competent
design and similar distortion measurements is indistinguishable from any another
in an A/B/X  test.  This mindset firmly denies any advancement in circuit design  that may have taken place in the last  30years.  
  First off I have never expected my stereo system to make me happy and
I have never expected equipment to connect me emotionally to the music. Music that I find emotionally satisfying remains so even on a transistor radio. I haven't purchased off the shelf gear since 1986.  I owned MG3s and a Halfler amp and preamp at that time.
I then started having things modified or purchased custom built gear.
I owned the second  Frankenstein transport /dac  that Mike Moffett built,
which was quite good for its time.  I have been listening to equipment
that  I have built or modified  for about the last  15 years.  I have managed to dodge the problem of how to decide what to buy.  My most recent purchase was a pair
of Reimer Speakers Teton GS  loudspeakers over a year ago.  I did purchase these without hearing them first. I had a couple of discussions with Rick about technical aspects of  their design and his philosophy regarding accuracy in sound reproduction and how he felt loudspeakers that he built served this goal.
Obviously I felt that I understood the design well enough and Rick and I
were on the same page regarding reproduction accuracy that I was comfortable spending my money without hearing them first.
  All my cabling is DIY, Nuff said.  Thank-you for answering my questions
regarding your decision making process.  Scotty

AphileEarlyAdopter

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #63 on: 11 Mar 2005, 07:19 pm »
John,
Lots of what audiophiles do might seem silly or unscientific. But there are a lot of good things too. Dont throw the baby away with the bath water. We will not have conclusive scientific results on 'quality of sound' but I am pretty sure, we need science to engineer better products. There are many approaches to meeting the 'specs' right now. You can have multiple drivers or single driver for example in a speaker.  The single driver aficianados are almost a cult by themselves. Having been impressed by freebie single driver computer speakers, I am also leaning towards this camp. But I am a little practical and will go for minimal crossover speakers from Zu or Gallo.
Similarly, in cable business, we have reached a point where we have good understanding on what parameter to what optimize for an IC, power cord or speaker cable. This makes it possible to build reasonably priced cables that perform very well, without having to go to great lengths to optimize all parameters (like Nordost or Empirical audio).  If you ask me to hazard a guess, I would say, that you can get 95% reference quality for ICs in the $100-$200 range and less than $300 or $400 for speaker cables, if you know what to buy. The prices will be much lower if you build them yourselves.

I am intrigued that you never seem to make use of friends, forums, reviewers opinions on components. I bought my Silverline Sonatinas without hearing them. The sound is exactly like what soundstage.com describes - atleat on one important aspect. It sounds 'light' no slam.  So reviewers are doing a good job to some extent.

coleco

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #64 on: 14 Mar 2005, 09:21 pm »
This guy on head-fi.org one time measured frequency response of a pair of new koss porta pros and compared them after break in. The response changed quite a bit and and was consistance with the changes that people were hearing with break in with these particular phones.

My Energy C5s definately broke in.. I couldn't turn the volume to -25db without major distortion at first and now I can turn it up to -15db without any distortion.

So physical break in, ie, loosening and softening of materials certainly occurs.

Hearing is *extremely* sensitive.. and subtle changes can make a big difference. However only blind AB or objective measurments tests are going to confirm if there is an actual difference.

So my opinion is pragmatically optomistic with a/v equipment. If it's 'better', the difference will be obvious.

I'm not going to be buying $500 speaker cable any time soon I can tell you that, I can live with HD specials.

albee

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #65 on: 14 Mar 2005, 10:45 pm »
To sum it up:  IF YOU CAN'T HEAR THE DIFFERENCE YOU DON'T NEED TO BUY COMPONENTS!  BUY A RACK SYSTEM OR BOOMBOX.

Neild

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #66 on: 30 Mar 2005, 06:47 am »
Well loudspeakers being generally very physical devices and having components where stiffness is obviously a major factor in their performance, audible change during a break-in period is pretty much an accepted fact.

What's more debateable is the idea of burn-in for solid state devices.  Personally I believe in it, to a certain extent and in certain cases and conditions.  I don't believe in it as an absolute however.  I have a serious basis of objective testing which I base this that I won't bore the board with.

Not sure I'm convinced to the merits of various exotic wiring or wire treatments though.  Not saying it's impossible, just that I haven't been able to reproduce it to a sufficient degree to convince myself overwhemingly.

Wire stands however, I totally do not believe in these.

LightFire

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #67 on: 20 May 2006, 02:02 am »
I'm sorry to disagree with most opinions in this tread. I am an electronics technician since 1989 and I can tell you for sure, because I learned it at school and witnessed it in the work place. Electronic components only get worse with the time of use. Specially analog electronic components like transistors used as amplifiers. The digital ones will not show any problems until they finally fail completely.
There is no such a thing like a "burn in" of an electrolytic capacitor, specially of the power supply. They useful life will be reduced however if stored for a long time without charge. When they fail your power supply stops working. There will be no sign of "life" in the equipment powered by that power supply.
There are a few things, however, that change from time to time and in between listening: our mood, our attention to detail, and our imagination.

LightFire

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #68 on: 20 May 2006, 02:35 am »
I found this link that may help to answer some questions. I warn you however that the author of the article is a bit harsh in his criticism.

It is a pdf document.

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

Scott F.

The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #69 on: 20 May 2006, 03:49 am »
Quote from: LightFire
I found this link that may help to answer some questions. I warn you however that the author of the article is a bit harsh in his criticism.

It is a pdf document.

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf


I hate to do this but..... this is an article written specifically to align the author with the non-believers in high end audio (read = sell subscriptions to the skepticle and unknowing), nothing more. The writer is well known as a quack amongst the audiophile hard core.

To support my (and many many others) beliefs I offer pure science as proof. This article was first published in Bound For Sound in 1992. With all due respect to the EE's out there, this goes much further than a BEng or Masters work. This delves into the realm of hard core Physics (of which I claim absolutely no knowledge of).

I hope this helps those that don't believe to understand but if it doesn't, at least it should help to further solidify the ground that we believers stand on.

This is one issue that will be around for a long, long time because to date, one maybe two industry people have offered a scientific attempt to explain the phenomenon.

===========================================
Article Quantum Tunnel of Love, issue 8a,9a/92 of Bound for Sound
===========================================

Quantum Tunnel of Love
By: Bob Sireno

Burn-in: The time during the early period of use when a component or cable exhibits measurable changes in performance, that eventually stabilize, resulting in consistent performance for a significant period of time thereafter. Things happen to be more complex than this simple definition of burn-in might lead one to believe. To gain a fuller understanding we must ask: what transpires inside of a circuit that causes it to stabilize? Why, after a period of time, is a device no longer subject to “drift”?  This paper proposes answers to these questions. But first, let me put forth my position on hi-end audio before the technical stuff begins.
I am a scientist, by trade, and therefore an objectivist. Twenty two years of experience on the job has taught me that all phenomena is measurable, but, not all phenomena can presently be measured. The technology of the measuring tool is not always adequate to measure empirical reality. People tend to accept this proposition in all areas other than audio.
I am also an audiophile. I hear differences in equipment, and in cables. I hear sonic changes that take place over time. I believe that audiophiles have better aural perception (not the same as hearing!) than the bulk of humanity, and that adequate test equipment needed to verify the subtleties they claim to hear in some cases, does not yet exist. Today we’ll look into the atomic world, where the explanations may exist for the sonic changes that seem to occur in our equipment and cables with the passage of time.

Atoms and molecules have recently been filmed in motion. PBS broadcast one of the first “;atomic movies”; several years ago. The show was called STEM. I was stunned. Up close, electrons literally look like thinly connected beads of gas. The depth of micro-reality made visible with a Scanning Tunneling Electron Microscope is incredible. The behavior of individual atoms was chaotic. Some appeared lethargic; temporarily bonding to others, while some were constantly moving. All of the atoms eventually paired off, vibrated, and moved on to pair off again, sometimes in groups of three or more.

What happens to the seemingly content atoms in a conductor when electrical pressure is applied? What happens when electron waves are driven through the circuitry of a new amp, CD player, cable, etc., (going through what we call its burn-in period) that causes some people to claim that nothing occurs because it can’t be measured, or to cause others to claim that a sweeter sound, or at least a different sound, is born over time and use?

Cables are made of metal crystals, typically copper or silver, containing spherically symmetrical positive ions, through which electrons move. The purest metal also contains one ten-thousandth of a percent, or so, of impurities. Each electron passing through a cable makes a series of left and right turns around those atomic impurities until it emerges.(1) What happens during this journey, multiplied by trillions, changes the nature of the cable sufficiently to affect the sound you hear over a period of time.
Metal crystals contain grain boundaries. A grain boundary is where two crystals meet, oriented so that their atoms are usually aligned in different directions. Researchers at Cornell University developed an x-ray technique that allowed them to probe the internal structure of grain interfaces. The results showed that atoms at grain boundaries appeared to vibrate 50 percent more energetically than non-boundary atoms.(2) Electrons tend toward lower energy levels, so when electrical pressure is applied, the increased energy brings about a slow reorientation of the atoms at the grain boundaries.  Afterwards, any reoriented atoms would vibrate less energetically. The outcome of the reorientation of atoms is less electron scattering resulting in improved electrical wave phase coherence.(3)
Dr. Robert Frank of Augustana College told me that “ion mobility leads to the migration of atoms over time...and to the movement of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen gas and hydrocarbon impurities” He stated that ion movement in copper wiring would probably occur over several months, creating a change in the filter nature, and a subtle change in the capacitance of the metal. To the extent that all cabling can be described mathematically as a filter device, a change in this aspect could cause a sonic deviation over time.

I believe the ion transfer Dr. Frank described, along with grain boundary reorientation, results in lower electron orbital levels in many of the boundary area atoms. These changes, induced over a period of time, may very well be the type of changes that are responsible, in part, for the burn-in effects that some audiophiles claim to hear.

While researching the concept of burn-in, I discovered a book entitled “Quantum Aspects Of Molecular Motions In Solids”. This fascinating, but highly pedantic book, focuses on the various aspects of quantum tunneling In the book there is a paper that describes the influence electrons have on the quantum tunneling of hydrogen atoms in a metal. The same paper also discusses rotational tunneling of methane, a simple hydrocarbon, in metal.(4) In other words, at least two of the common impurities found in electrical conductors, move slowly, by quantum tunneling, when electrical pressure is applied. The result, once again, is less electron scattering and a physical change in the conductor itself at a molecular level.

Quantum tunneling is a surprisingly common event. It occurs in every electrical connection, where a thin oxide layer has formed over a metal conductor. As long as the oxide layer remains thin, electrons can, and will, tunnel through the layer.(5) I propose that electrons will not always detour around impurities in a wire, but will tunnel their way through impurities that are small enough to allow the activity to occur. In either case pathways of conductivity are established during days, weeks, and months of use through the actual conductor themselves. Like the water reeling down a babbling brook, the electrons go around, or eventually thorough, boulders of impurity, always choosing the route of least resistance.
It appears that your new components, or cables, do indeed improve up to a point when the system they are in is left on for extended periods of time Obviously, there is a point at which no more perceptible change occurs. Why is that? Well, unfortunately electrons will continue to scatter around the remaining impurities, even after burn-in. Can circuits be designed that will not exhibit electron scattering, or burn-in? Yes, it is possible to design a circuit that is so small that the signal paths are the thickness of a single electron wavelength. The result is called a quantum wire. Efforts to make a practical quantum wire have so far failed. But, once again, theory is fast becoming reality.

AT&T’s Bell labs is working on a resistor that allows but a single electron through at a time.(6) Researchers at the University of California at Santa Barbara have assembled quantum wires one electron at a time.(7) Japanese scientists at the Optoelectronics Technology Research Laboratory, near Tokyo, believe that before quantum wires can be easily fabricated a deeper understanding of what happens on an atomic level during epitaxial (crystal) growth is needed, and are working toward that goal.( 8 ) An American company, Texas Instruments, has developed a tiny device called the BiQuaRTT, or bipolar quantum resonant tunneling transistor. At only two specific voltages, electrons tunnel through the circuit barriers causing current flow. Integrated circuits will be next. Someday quantum wire production will be perfected, along with the necessary IC’s, and we’ll have an entirely new generation of amplifiers, preamps and such.

When quantum wires become commercial and are fully utilized, perhaps in 20 to 25 years, the reproduced signal approaching the final amplification stages will be as perfect as possible, and cable burn-in will no longer be a subject of dispute. To fully utilize quantum wires, and minimize electron scattering, the final amplification stage may need to be located at, or in, the speaker. One can only hope that improved recording techniques will match the hardware development that will inevitably occur.

Scientifically, there is no doubt that the propagation of electrons through a conductor changes with time and use. These changes are minute, and measurable with only the most advanced of devices. But, they exist. And to exist means that claims concerning audibility must be taken seriously. Only a few years ago, audiophiles complained that circuits employing negative feedback affected the sound of amplifiers adversely. The number crunchers denied it because the distortion figures were so much improved with the use of feedback. Turns out the audiophiles were right... that may be the case again.

FOOTNOTES:
1)   Martin C. Guitzwiller, “Quantum Chaos” Scientific American, January 1992, p. 83.
2)   Science News, November 26, 1988, p. 348.
3)   F. Capasso, “Evolution of Quantum Semi-conductor Devices” Physics of Quantum Electron Devices, ed. Austin, Engl, Sugano, (Berlin 1990).
4)   A. Huller and L. Baetz, “The Temperature Dependence Of Rotational Tunneling Simulation of a Quantum System at Finite Temperatures”; Quantum Aspects of Molecular Motion in Solids, (Berlin 1987).
5)   Robert Eisberg and Robert Resnick, Quantum Physics of Atoms, Molecules, Solids, Nuclei, and Particles, (New York 1974)
6)   Elizabeth Corcoran, “Diminishing Dimensions” Scientific American, November 1990, p.130.
7)   ibid. p.129.
8 )   ibid. pp. 128-129.

Quantum Tunnel of Love appeared in issue 8a,9a/92 of Bound for Sound

Supporting links

http://www.physicspost.com/articles.php?articleId=173&page=1

... and another from my old collegue Thorston where he makes reference to the same article.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html

LightFire

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #70 on: 20 May 2006, 04:20 am »
What is really good about science is that it doesn't matter who comes up with insane ideas. They are not accepted until heavily tried, tested and proved to be truth, beyond doubt, by peers.
Now this very neutral article about audiophile in the Wikipedia may be an eye opener for many:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile

Folsom

The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #71 on: 20 May 2006, 06:17 pm »
If "Burn-In" was not real then Bel-Canto made the worst Pre-amplifier I have ever heard in my life. Seriously, a Wal-mart surround reciever would be better at that comparrison level before "Burn-In."

LightFire

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #72 on: 20 May 2006, 09:59 pm »
It is all in your mind. Why don;t you try some kind of blind test and see if you can get the same results.

djklmnop

The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #73 on: 20 May 2006, 10:15 pm »
UPS usually does the breaking-in for me.

LightFire

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #74 on: 21 May 2006, 01:50 am »
Here is a very interesting audiophile site that discuss audiophile myths, break in and burn in among them:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/ConsumerAudioMyths.php

maxwalrath

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #75 on: 21 May 2006, 05:24 am »
physical.

Den

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #76 on: 21 May 2006, 09:05 pm »
Scott, excellent post.
Quote from: Scott F.
The technology of the measuring tool is not always adequate to measure empirical reality. People tend to accept this proposition in all areas other than audio.


Doubters,
It's all in my head? I merely imagine that some physical phenomena like burn-in exist? Some things exist; some do not. . .and you can tell with absolute certainty which is which, but I cannot?  I should doubt my ears?  

Doubting is easy.  Doubt your ears.  Doubt your eyes and your nose.  Doubt your touch and your taste.  Perhaps all sensation is trickery and not to be believed.  Perhaps you merely imagine that you exist.  Prove otherwise, before you presume to tell others what exists and what does not.  That's right, prove that you exist, and you will receive the Nobel prize for philosophy. Address the fundamentals, then maybe you can speak with authority about sketchy things like electromagnetic phenomena and psychoacoustics.

Nothing that our five senses tell us exists can be proven to actually exist independent of our perception of it. Nothing. When you get right down to it, everything is all in your head.  All of 'reality' is merely a convention which we agree to recognize and in which we agree to participate, like the convention of suspending disbelief while watching a film or a play.  A/B/X testing dos not prove reality.

Maybe the phenomenon of burn-in of wire exists. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe the wire exists. Maybe it doesn't.  If you cannot first prove that you exist, your testing methodology amounts to nothing in the shadow of this doubt. Prove that you exist and that you are able to have perfect knowledge of every facet of the existence of a thing like a wire, and maybe I will then be interested in your testing and your list of the real vs. the imagined.  

This may seem to be a bit of silliness, but if you are going to argue about the nature of reality, the silliness is really in arguing about burn-in rather than the fundamental questions.  

For the record, I don't sell wire or anything else.
When I get new stuff, I run it continuously for a week before seriously listening to it. . .
because maybe it needs to burn in, and maybe it doesn't.

Scott F.

The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #77 on: 21 May 2006, 09:38 pm »
Quote from: Den
Scott, excellent post.


Thanks Den. Not many people know about some science that has taken place on that specific topic (quantum tunneling). It certainly isn't confined to audio. This is an effect that that relates to other 'big picture' issues that are way beyond my pay grade and could only hope to understand.

Quote from: Den
...Maybe the wire exists. Maybe it doesn't....

....This may seem to be a bit of silliness, but if you are going to argue about the nature of reality, the silliness is really in arguing about burn-in rather than the fundamental questions....


I like the way you think. That just about solves every arguement that has ever existed :lol: So in turn I think I'll sit back and enjoy some music that I may or may not be hearing (I like to think I'm hearing it though :D ).



Rob Babcock

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #78 on: 21 May 2006, 10:51 pm »
Quote from: djklmnop
UPS usually does the breaking-in for me.


I like that! :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

LightFire

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The 'Burn-In' Theory: Is it Pyschological or is it Physical?
« Reply #79 on: 21 May 2006, 11:07 pm »
Just for the record on quantum physics. Scientists are still trying to understand why things that occur in the quantum (subatomic) level DO NOT affect our own reality. Things that occur in the quantum level contradict laws of physics that occur on our level. However both "worlds" exist. We know it for a fact. But the "quantum world" does not affect "our macroscopic world."

There is only one type of "burn in" that surely occurs, beyond any doubt. It is the burn in of certain audiophiles money. :lol:

If wasn't an honest person I would start a business in manufacturing/selling RCA cables and sell to selected audiophile customer for the bargain of 3 times the production price. However, if a competitor arrives in the marketing selling similar product for more, I will have to raise my price to bit the competition.
 :lol: