[dman777]

Is there any real proof in the burn-in theory with the digital receivers/amplifiers? Psychologically it makes since, if you lestion to something long enough you will get used to it and the sound will become softer/warmer only because of that. To support this, this is why one listener claim burn in takes 80 hours, while another claimed 20 hours, and one other claimed 200 hours. It seems more like the time it took for each individual to become accustomed to the sound.

But, in a counter argument, can it be proven scientifically or with hard evidence that there was an actual physical change in the receiver circuitry (enough to make the significant change in sound that everyone claims)?

[PhilNYC]

Not sure how this applies to digital amps, but when I first got my Dodson DAC, Ralph Dodson told me that it would take a day or two for the internal clock to "settle down".  This was separate from the overall burn-in, which Ralph said would take a long time (400+ hours) because of a lot of factors, including a huge number of caps (among other things).  And yes, it did take a long time for the DAC to really sound its best (around 300 hours for me).  At a minimum, the "clock settling down" was something that was measurable in terms of jitter...

[SET Man]

Yes, break-in is real. A week ago. I up graded the connectors on speaker cable. At first listen the sound was thin and a bit bright.

Than I connected both cables and used 12V 1.5A DC (yes DC ) on one end and 20W halogen lamp on the other end to burn them in. I left them burn-in for about 48hrs. Than I reconnected them back in and the sound improved a lot! Sounded much better. Keep in mind that I have only listen to them for only 3hrs before burn-in process and the system have not changed at all.

So I guess is real and not just psychological. I guess this will have to do with the physical properties of the object in a molecule/atom level plus the magnetic properties.   Hmmm.... now I sound like crazy siencetist.

Anyway, at least I know is work for sure for cable. Oh! by the way don't try using 12V 1.5A+ DC to burn in cable with network box, not sure if that would damage them.

Buddy

[denverdoc]

Now I have heard from reliable authorities that in some instances semiconductors need time to reach a steady state following manufacture; the notion that cables or other passive devices need the same is mind bending in the least. Seems now in order for a cable to function properly must be first cryogenically treated and then burned in--smacks of ritualistic aspects of addiction or Obsessive-Compulsive disorder, nothing more or nothing less.  I treat both and the commonalities between these disorders and the pursuit of high end audio is painfully apparent at times,
John

[eric the red]

Here's a four weeks for speakers to burn-in believer:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=22087&highlight=reynaud+burn+in&r=&session=

Or the I use my refrigerator to burn in my outlets believer:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=general&n=164473&highlight=refrigerator&r=&session=

I remember reading an AA post where someone had installed a male IEC jack to their refrigerator so he could burn in his power cables.

[JackStraw]

There are lots of DIY and mod wizards around these parts. Can anyone offer any measurements quantifying the performance change during burn-in?

I suspect that there is some element of auditory tachyphylaxis mixed in as well. Boy do I love that word...

[denverdoc]

Eric,

Thanks for the links, and while it is tempting to beat up on the lunacy therein, a better use of time might be in trying to better understand  the "hook" of music and why many of us in this community spend such a disproportionate share of our time and money for having better sound.

Certainly, at many points our efforts in pursuit of same invites self delusion which is why I adopted a personal ABX strategy with the help of a friend, so that I no longer waste money on snake oil. Anyone who attempts to rebuff ABX testing methodology IMO is only asking for harm to their pocket book, and assists in keepimg pseudoscience alive and well. Sure we all have the desire to have a hands on experience and if wiring a cable to your frig outlet floats your boat, so be it, but I would suggest that building your own loudspeakers or treating the room with good neasurement device is likely to return far greater dividends.

John

[denverdoc]

There are lots of DIY and mod wizards around these parts. Can anyone offer any measurements quantifying the performance change during burn-in?

I suspect that there is some element of auditory tachyphylaxis mixed in as well. Boy do I love that word...

Tachyphylaxis, an interesting term--first time I came across it was to describe the inability to take LSD two days in a row with anywhere the same result.    It is certainly more my experience with audio gear than that described, as in wow the first trial produced grand results, 3 days later with the same preamp, ho-hum. 30 days looking to trade it in. Have not had this curious experience where over time things get better. The brain for obvious reasons is a differential amp at its core, so how things get more noticeable over time is a bit of a stretch, and has less to do with crystalline structure than synaptic plasticity.
John

[KKM]

I can't say that I have experience , for electronics or non-mechanical equipment (no physical movement), an audible difference over time for break-in/ burn-in improvement. But for speakers, the movement of the Magneapn 3.6's did change for the better over time.

I've read many claims from owners the improvements they hear over time from when they bought new electronics, but some claim this is their ears adjusting to the sound over time. (Why doesn't burn-in never sound worst? Is it because every designer are genius's?)

But a good way to see if burn-in is adible is to do a quick A/B. Have 2 new components and run one over time to burn-in and leave the other in  the box, then compare. This seems simple enough and could be revealing but yet have never read where anyone has done this.

[gary]

I never believed in break-in at all until I got my new speakers. They cost $2k, and sounded so bad when I first turned the system on that I wanted to burn them. There was so much distortion they made your ears hurt, and want nothing more than to get up and leave the room. Things got a little better after eight hours, but not much, and it wasn't until I let them play for a week straight that they finally started sounding good. I certainly don't understand why this would happen but there's no doubt in my mind that the distortion I heard (particularly in the first few hours) could be measured and quantified.

Gary

[denverdoc]

I can't say that I have experience , for electronics or non-mechanical equipment (no physical movement), an audible difference over time for break-in/ burn-in improvement. But for speakers, the movement of the Magneapn 3.6's did change for the better over time.

...

I doubt any of us would disagree as to mechanical parts like a car needing some break-in. The only problem with such an experiment as you propose is when you cannot under any conditions yet tried create a clear distinction between a good amp and one selling for 10x its price (unless FR aberratioons are present), there is zero likelihood of producing a positive result with what you suggest. It is a fair test, but  then those inclined to audio voodoo would find 27 reasons why the test wasn't fair. A foregone conclusion so why bother, unless you are brave enuf to be the subject and your wallet is at stake. Curious how few a'philes willingly inject this modicum of rigor into their purchasing habits, hence my earlier conclusions.
J

[hmen]

I've heard that in the case of speakers, some drivers are manufactured a little stiffer than optimum and loosen up a little over the first few weeks. That seems to make sense. I've heard explanations about caps and semiconducters needing burn-in.
On the ther hand, I've also seen the concept of burn-in applied to everything from outlets to wooden amp stands. On an intuitive level it seems that  it might make a difference in some cases but a lot of things I read really don't make sense.  
The real question is raised by JackStraw - has anybody ever done any measurements?

[PhilNYC]

But a good way to see if burn-in is adible is to do a quick A/B. Have 2 new components and run one over time to burn-in and leave the other in  the box, then compare. This seems simple enough and could be revealing but yet have never read where anyone has done this. ...

As a dealer, I do this all the time.  Just this week I had the opportunity to do this with a pair of speakers.  A new pair of speakers was coming in a week later than a customer hoped...he was having guests last week and wanted to have his new speakers for them to hear.  So I loaned him my demo units of the same speakers for the week.  The new pair arrived a few days ago, and I helped him set them up.  There was no question at all that the new speakers performed significantly different from the demo pair in the exact same position with the exact same gear in the exact same room.

And it's not just speakers.  I also did this a couple of months ago with a CDP.  I had given a customer an in-home trial of my demo unit.  He loved it and ordered one.  When he got the new unit, he hated it...thought it sounded constrained, lacked bass, etc.  Thinking something might be wrong, I brought over the demo unit again, and in an A/B comparison there was a clear difference.  I told him to give it a month...and a month later, the A/B comparison revealed no significant difference.

I'll tell you this...I wish burn-in wasn't real.  It would make my life as a dealer much easier...I wouldn't have to worry about burning in gear before being able to demo it or let people have home-trials with it.

That said, I'm not too anal about cable burn-in (asides from silver cable)...a day or two in the Mobie (cable burner) or a week in the system and I'm good with it.  But speakers, anything with a lot of capacitors, or balanced components, it takes a lot of time and is a real pain in the neck...

Anyways, I thought this original discussion was whether digital amps in particular were in need of prolonged burn-in time (isn't that why this topic is in "Digital Doman Circle"?)...which is why I focused on some of the digital aspects of components in my first response.

[denverdoc]

As a dealer, I do this all the time... That said, I'm not too anal about cable burn-in (asides from silver cable)...a day or two in the Mobie (cable burner) or a week in the system and I'm good with it. But speakers, anything with a lot of capacitors, or balanced components, it takes a lot of time and is a real pain in the neck...

Anyways, I thought this original discussion was whether digital amps in particular were in need of prolonged burn-in time (isn't that why this topic is in "Digital Doman Circle"?)...which is why I focused on some of the digital aspects of components in my first response.
..

I guess I interpreted the question more broadly, as in whether burn-in exists and under what conditions we might have a hope of providing explanation for phenomenon.

Interesting to hear from a dealer who certainly doesn't wish to take back merchandise--kind of like my role as a doctor, who doesn't want to deal with th patient who isn't happy with the therapy! Wait two weeks and if it doesn't get better (most often does) , than call.  

As I suggested nothing less nothing more, and if anyone could make a measurement proving such a phenomenon as in cable break-in, it would have wider currency round hare than a  dollar bill,
John

[_scotty_]

denverdoc, would one measurable example be enough?
Electrolytic capacitors require time with a voltage applied to them before
the dielectric  fully forms.  When they are first subjected to an applied voltage they will show a much higher leakage current and will in fact not meet their specification in this regard for a couple of days, in many cases
they will also not meet their esr spec either.  When used as a power supply capacitor  they are not doing their job as well initially as they will after the they have" formed up".  During this time the listener to this brand new
component will typically say it sounds kind of harsh or worse. The nonlinearity of the new electrolytic capacitor is measurable and hearable.
  Loudspeaker speakers being mechanical devices also exhibit larger
nonlinearities when brand new and unplayed. Most conventional cone drivers
do not meet their Theil/Small parameters as stated by the manufacturer
until their suspensions are flexed for several hours at a relatively high drive level. Vas, Fs and Qms are typically the parameters that are most affected
by being broken in.  The drivers will also exhibit a higher level of THD and IM until broken in.  These are all measurable effects and listeners seem to prefer the sound of a loudspeaker after it is broken in and the drivers work
the way they are supposed to and exhibit  lower distortion.
I hope this information is helps you to understand some of underlying
causes for the break in phenomenon , Scotty

[denverdoc]

Scott,
With all due respect, it does not help me understand the phenomenon of break in. W/O wanting to get into a bizarre sub-thead as to what tolerances over time we are talking and to what extent this might undermine a given circuits performance, I think it might be more telltale to ask how a speaker cable resembles an eletrolytic cap. And theres a long running web site that pretty much debunks this commonly quoted counterexample besides.

More to the point might be an investigation into the history of break-in phenomenon as I have been following audio at very levels of intensity over the past 30 years, and never even recall mention of it until manufacturers in the subjectivist mags of the time began offering manufacturer rebuttals. At first, seemed like every component with a bad review was mysteriously broken in shipping which wasn't discovered until further investigation by the builder, then when this became to the point it became counterproductive--ie loss of consumer confidence in reliablility and journalistic integrity. THEN break-in became the big excuse. Now maybe this was a clever ploy on the part of the reviewers to get the gear for longer times...  If so, hats off but we have an industry feeding off secondary phenomenon, or tertiary... of dubious scientific validity. So if anyone with more time than I cares to do some research, we might discover whether this has old roots or new.

But assuming this is a valid phenomenon, guys like Phil should just put pressure on the manufacturers to add break in to their high end units, or insist to their customers when it comes to buying cable, one should buy it used on the net, assuming it doesn't have too many electron miles and the tread is wearing thin.


One thing I would concur with is that if a unit is to fail, seems like it does very early in its lifespan or much. much later on. So there are other effects at play, and we all know heat kills all. So it either breaks while breaking in, or does the long slow death red giant death.
John

[eico1]

denverdoc, would one measurable example be enough?...

Yes, but can you provide a reference to the measurement?

From the chatter I hear from designers it seems likely to me that measured changes in brand new electrolytics and speakers happen with very short period of use, like within minutes or even less.
 
steve

[eric the red]

Personally, I am highly suspect of anyone who thinks speaker wire, ICs and power cables need any kind of "burn-in" or that a lengthy period of "burn-in" on wire and cables significantly changes anything in the sonic chain. I did an A-B test between croyed PCs, non croyed PCs and stock PCs from a well respected audio cable and mod company last year and couldn't hear jack sh%t as far as sonic differences go between the cords. It's OK denverdoc to comment on some of the snake oil that is regularly posted as audio fact by some of the AA believers. Many of us here are AA refugees who got tired of the AA hyperbole along time ago.    

[denverdoc]

I doubt any of us would disagree as to mechanical parts like a car needing some break-in......

Before anyone else cites another speaker example, I wanted to clarify that what I meant in the quote above is that speakers, like cars likely do need break in. The remainder of the thread was directed toward electronics,
J

[Occam]

Is there any real proof in the burn-in theory with the digital receivers/amplifiers? ...

No.  Unfortuneately, as audiophiles, we alter what constitutes proof. We oppine endlessly on the minuitia wrought by this or that components change or burn in phenomona, but rarely follow the simpleist of experimental techniques, maitaining a control sample. Rather, we rely on aural memory, and maitain we can recollect subtle differences over periods spanning months. I'm as guilty as anyone and will simply rationalize by saying, I don't have the resouces (or discipline) to incrementally verify differences comparing against a non-modded and/or burned in unit.

That being said, I can only point to my own experiences with that capacitior from Beazelbub, Black Gates. They do burn in, over an excreably long time. And I do wish I'd an extra unit to leave un-burned in to compare. But my opinion certainly doesn't constitute proof, and I can't argue that my certainty isn't the result of acclimation and/or hysteria.