DEQX Pdc:2.6

Davey · « **Reply #260 on:** 24 Mar 2005, 05:25 am »

Those are Selah's Carnelian speakers.

http://www.selahaudio.com/id16.html

Davey.

Rick Craig · « **Reply #261 on:** 24 Mar 2005, 11:43 am »

Quote from: jhenderson010759

Quote from: John Ashman
These would be nice for DEQX!

John -

Who makes these?

Jim

This is my Carnelian design in customized cabinets.

Rick

MarkM · « **Reply #262 on:** 24 Mar 2005, 12:21 pm »

I have a pair of these speakers(different finish) from Selah, they sound incredible. Excellent detail and just plain musical. Hmmm DEQX these babies....

DSK · « **Reply #263 on:** 26 Mar 2005, 04:15 am »

For the reasons stated, it seems to be agreed that optimal use of the DEQX requires rigid, high quality drivers such as the SEAS magnesiums.

However, no-one seems to be mentioning that the Accuton ceramic drivers might be good with DEQX for the same reasons .... any reasons why they wouldn't?

John Ashman · « **Reply #264 on:** 26 Mar 2005, 04:17 am »

Quote from: DSK

However, no-one seems to be mentioning that the Accuton ceramic drivers might be good with DEQX for the same reasons .... any reasons why they wouldn't?

Not at all!

Marbles · « **Reply #265 on:** 26 Mar 2005, 04:35 am »

Quote from: JoshK

Those, btw, are among the top 3 most attractive speakers i have seen. Far better looking 3-way than the Veracity HT3, imo.

While not as pretty, my Selah in walls based on the same drivers sound excellant, near as I can tell with side surrounds....

They are built as well as any B&M commercial speaker I have owned..well better actually.

JoshK · « **Reply #266 on:** 26 Mar 2005, 04:37 am »

Take a picture of those when you get a chance. I'd be curious to see them.

Marbles · « **Reply #267 on:** 26 Mar 2005, 04:46 am »

No problem, give me a couple of days...my wife just came back from a 9 day vacation tonight (she went for a 7 day cruise on the Queen Mary 2) and she needs to dump the pictures before I can use the camara.

Marbles · « **Reply #268 on:** 26 Mar 2005, 07:05 pm »

pictures are now uploaded to my gallery..

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;user=4

Please keep in mind that since I had 5/8" thick drywall in other areas of my basement, I thought they would be the same thickness in this room...I was wrong, it is only 1/2". Also keep in mind I have not spackled the speakers in.

Also you should know that one is on a wall with studs 16" on center and one is on a wall that is a support for stairs and that has studs 12" on center.

You will notice that Rick was kind enough to make them each a different width to accomodate the different stud widths.

brj · « **Reply #269 on:** 26 Mar 2005, 07:38 pm »

Now that this thread is completely derailed...

Marbles, what exactly is your mix of speakers now? Marble 9.0 mains (and center?), Carnelian sides and 626 rears? Are they all "playing well together"?

Do you have normal 2x4 walls? (I.e. is that the total depth of the in-wall Carnelians)

Thanks!

Marbles · « **Reply #270 on:** 26 Mar 2005, 07:40 pm »

Quote from: brj

Now that this thread is completely derailed...

Marbles, what exactly is your mix of speakers now? Marble 9.0 mains (and center?), Carnelian sides and 626 rears? Are they all "playing well together"?

Do you have normal 2x4 walls? (I.e. is that the total depth of the in-wall Carnelians)

Thanks!

I have VMPS RM40's as front L/R, RM30c Center, 626R back surrounds, and Selah side surrounds. They all flow very well.

I don't know what Rick calls his in-walls. They are just under 4" in depth. I have a normall thickness wall under the stairs and it fits fine.

brj · « **Reply #271 on:** 26 Mar 2005, 07:44 pm »

Oops... I thought the RM40s had already left the system.

If you don't mind, can you address the second question? ("Do you have normal 2x4 walls? I.e. is that the total depth of the in-wall Carnelians ")

Thanks!

Marbles · « **Reply #272 on:** 26 Mar 2005, 07:48 pm »

addressed above...

John Ashman · « **Reply #273 on:** 27 Mar 2005, 01:59 am »

In the vein of "back to the subject", I was at Audio Asylum and I've been told over there that the Manger driver used in the Overkill Audio system for $75K or something like that featured at www.6moons.com runs at as much as 5-10% distortion through much of its range (by a very reliable, knowledgeable and capable source too). In many cases the distortion is only 15-30dB below the output. That is *amazing* to me. This is why it's critical to choose the right drivers for DEQX, not just drop in "whatever", even if that "whatever" is extremely expensive. In the same midrange frequency range that the Manger is running about an average of 5% (no decimal!) distortion, the SEAS Excel W15 is putting out about .2%. So, the NHT Xd should fairly well kill the "Overkill" system for 1/10th the price. Not a shameless plug for Xd, but a warning that no one should assume that $=quality in the digital domain. Good execution is far more critical than $. Always. Unfrickenbelievable. DEQX will cover a lot, but it won't remove in-band distortion. If it's there, it's there.

DSK · « **Reply #274 on:** 27 Mar 2005, 02:57 am »

Interesting comments John. I don't disagree with anything you said. Although I've done no reading on the Manger drivers, I gained the impression that their rep is due not just to their price, but also to people having listened to them and loved them. This impression may be totally wrong (I've seen no reviewes), and the Mangers may perform no better than these distortion figures would suggest. BUT, if they do sound great, perhaps distortion in this context is no more indicative of a good sounding driver than THD is an indicator of a good amp (ie. SET measuring 3% etc).

Not arguing anything here, just a thought.

Davey · « **Reply #275 on:** 27 Mar 2005, 03:14 am »

John,

One man's "distortion" is another man's "air and realism." When you evaluate subjectively objective measurements pretty much go out the window so whether the Manger driver measures well or not with respect to distortion is not important on some folks rating scale. Some folks seem to like the sound of the Manger driver and maybe the "phase correctness" of it trumps the distortion levels in their mind. I dunno.
Heck, if low harmonic distortion was that important tube-based power amplifiers wouldn't even exist.

It reminds me of the old saying...."you can believe the facts or you can believe your ears."

Maybe DEQX should investigate some distortion-adding capabilities for their equipment??

Oops, sorry DSK. I didn't see your post and seem to have echoed what you said.

Cheers,

Davey.

John Ashman · « **Reply #276 on:** 27 Mar 2005, 03:27 am »

I don't disagree, there are a lot of people who prefer a softer, fuzzier sound, but from an objective realism point of view, the lack of distortion = detail. I've never heard the driver, but I just can't imagine paying $75K or whatever for a speaker that puts out that kind of distortion (same goes for amps!), besides, it's pretty well the opposite goal of DEQX which is enhanced clarity, accuracy, precision.

ekovalsky · « **Reply #277 on:** 27 Mar 2005, 04:49 am »

The backwave of the Manger is very hard to control, largely because of the acceleration/deceleration which is orders of magnitude faster than most other drivers. Distortion increases if the driver is mounted in an enclosure which cannot fully damp the rear wave. The Overkill "egg" pretty much does kill the back wave. Another option is dipole.

The Manger driver runs about $700 and the Beyma woofer in the Encore (reviewed on 6moons.com) is about $300. So cost of drivers + crossover (DEQX) is about $5000 per pair. However, the manufacturing cost of the Encores is about $25,000 per pair -- the cabinets are indeed "Overkill" and extremely costly to build.

I considered purchasing the review pair at half of MSRP but decided not to for various reasons, mainly future resale value and a feud between the manufacturer and the seller, his former partner. They are currently on Audiogon if anyone is interested. The Overkill amp is available too, actually a very good value (dual Belles 150A with tweaks) as a standalone item.

John Ashman · « **Reply #278 on:** 27 Mar 2005, 05:00 am »

Quote from: ekovalsky

The backwave of the Manger is very hard to control, largely because of the acceleration/deceleration which is orders of magnitude faster than most other drivers. Distortion increases if the driver is mounted in an enclosure which cannot fully damp the rear wave.

Two things -

1. Acceleration/deceleration is identical to any other driver that can reproduce those frequencies. I'm not understanding what you're saying with this. If you are using the Manger up to 2-4kHz, then the speed of the driver is no faster than the SEAS W15. If it were fast enough to operate as a tweeter, it wouldn't function well because of dispersion issues, unless it has some utterly unique property. "speed" = FR. It doesn't matter if the driver can respond faster than what is required to reproduce the range being sent to it.

2. The rear wave thing wouldn't be any different from any other driver, at least in theory. If it is unduly affected, something is a little weird. But then, this appears to be a weird driver.

I think the Overkill Audio system is more marketing stunt than real performance and I doubt it could even keep up in performance with the NHT Xd or a DEQX'd HT3 or one of Selah's systems, let alone be worth the asking price. Sometimes strange technology is just that.

ekovalsky · « **Reply #279 on:** 27 Mar 2005, 05:40 am »

I was largely rehashing what Derek Wilson of Overkill had told me. Some of what he said did make sense, but no doubt it is mostly marketing talk.

The Salk HT3 definitely makes a nice target for DSP (be it with the TacT or DEQX). I am still waiting to hear from Rick and others how things work out with line arrays. The more reading I've done, it seems line arrays may be best with passive crossovers for the mid/bass cones and tweeter ribbons and limit DSP for the signal division between the arrays and separate subs.