New 3-way design sneak peek.

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 31011 times.

Danny Richie

New 3-way design sneak peek.
« on: 19 Feb 2005, 02:51 am »
Here is some info on the soon to be released A/V-4.

This three-way uses the SW-12A woofer and PR-12A radiator with the M-130 woofer and GR-T2 tweeter.

It's designed to be a slim floor standing speaker that with floor spikes barely crests the 40 inch mark. High WAF !

Sensitivity is 87db, and the -3db down point is 25Hz. It can take lots of power too.  :rock:  Yea.

See ugly prototype below:



As you can see the low frequency woofer is side firing. Crossing over to the M-130 in the 125Hz this big woofer blends with the M-130 in a seamless transition.

Relieving the M-130 woofer from duty below 125hz and protecting it well with a third order (forth order acoustical) electrical network really lower the distortion and allowed the M-130 to sing like never before.

What really turned out to be one of the best things about this speaker is how well it disappears. It is as transparent as any speaker I have heard. This was due in part to the way the M-130 is loaded.

Looking at the prototypes you can see that there are two side pieces that mount onto the actually enclosure. On one side this flushes out the woofers. The other side is to mirror image the next side of the box. This also makes the boxes 1.5" think in these areas. It is well braced too.



If you look at the shape of the side pieces you will see that they slant up at an angle. This is because that on the inside of the enclosure the divider that separates the lower woofer section from the upper section also shares this same slant.

Not only does this divide the two sections but it forms an open back transmission line loaded upper section for the M-130. This slanted floor section loaded and tuned the upper cavity to 125Hz. This keeps the M-130 output tightly controlled and linear right down to its crossover point.

The real surprise came in listening. This open backed section also acts somewhat like an infinite baffle through much of its range. Like a simple open backed design loaded with dampening material.

This open back design has one of the most boxless sounds I have ever heard from a boxed speaker. Airy, clear and transparent....  :dance:  Vocals are lush and just hang in the air but have great focus too. Imaging, placement, and sound staging is all excellent. I am really proud of this one and can't wait for my customers to hear them so they can share in my joy.



The rear open area will feature a nice looking grill that will finish out the look and shape of the enclosure.

The clarity and detail level of the low bass ranges are clearly a step up from the stand mounted two ways with subs. Tight and well controlled bass with a smooth extension.  :thumb:  No boominess, no sloppiness, no peaks, or dips...

The bummer now is that I have to dissemble them to get them veneered and painted. For this pair I am thinking of doing them in a quilted Maple (high gloss) with the side pieces painted in a glossy Black.  :mrgreen:



The frequency response was smooth as glass just like all of our designs, and the impedance is a vary consistent 8 ohms with a 6 ohm minimum.

Looks like kit cost will be $795. for a pair and include everything.   :D

mikef

Re: New 3-way design sneek peek.
« Reply #1 on: 19 Feb 2005, 03:13 am »
Danny,

When you say "includes everything", does this include enclosures? Sounds sweeet!

Mike

BradJudy

New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #2 on: 19 Feb 2005, 03:40 am »
Hmmm....picturing those side panels in solid wood with a black main body - that would be killer.

RAW

New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #3 on: 19 Feb 2005, 03:48 am »
Danny looking very good.
Quilted Mapa burl you said ! :wink:

Will may have to drop a set into them and have a sneek listen. :mrgreen:


Can not wait.

Al

MaxCast

New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #4 on: 19 Feb 2005, 01:41 pm »
How about a high gloss candy apply red?

rosconey

New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #5 on: 19 Feb 2005, 01:48 pm »
my next diy speakers will be camelian white-
i love the color change's this paint has with sunlight-like a rainbow.

NealH

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 373
New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #6 on: 19 Feb 2005, 04:42 pm »
I like what I see and read.  Good work Danny.  But Quilted Maple and Black....nah, it's a bit cold and perhaps gaudy -  a bit Polk'ish.  

Lets try to keep things simple and eloquent.  Like Holly fronts and Teakwood sides.  Or for a bit more flare, Birds Eye Maple fronts and classic Mahogany sides (or teakwood again).   The subtle two tone effects are really nice and about everyone likes it.  Yea, even women.  

Anyway, it's bad form to tell an artist how to paint his pictures so, I will shut up.

I do hope these new speakers will be available complete with enclosure.

ss397

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 119
New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #7 on: 19 Feb 2005, 05:39 pm »
beautiful design danny. you are taking the diy speaker to new levels. i love the open back concept, it appears to similar to the treatment bud fried is using for his midrange loading and he is all about realism. could you post the overall h x w x d dimensions?

brj

New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #8 on: 19 Feb 2005, 05:44 pm »
Hi Danny - cool looking design!

Have you played around with placement?  I'm curious as to how far these will need to be from back walls (due to the rear exit transmission termination) and the side walls (due to the side firing woofers).

Thanks!

ekovalsky

New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #9 on: 19 Feb 2005, 06:22 pm »
Would the stuffed upper compartment with the smallish open back qualify as an aperiodic alignment ?   I guess I have never seen a transmission line tuned to that high a frequency.

Looks like a winner, either way!

Danny Richie

New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #10 on: 20 Feb 2005, 06:34 pm »
Quote
When you say "includes everything", does this include enclosures? Sounds sweeet!


No, this includes all parts, components, etc. No boxes. You can get a quote on the enclosures from Al Wooley at Raw Acoustics. I am sure he will be glad to build them for any of our customers.

Quote
Hmmm....picturing those side panels in solid wood with a black main body - that would be killer.


One of the best things about building a kit like this is that you can finish them any way you like.  :mrgreen:

Quote
Will may have to drop a set into them and have a sneek listen.  


In other words, when I send them to you for veneering and painting, don't take the networks out of them? I guess you do have some M-130's, GR-T2 tweeters and SW-12A's and PR-12A's on hand don't you.

Quote
could you post the overall h x w x d dimensions?


H = 39.25", W = 8" not counting the added side panels, D = 16"

Quote
Have you played around with placement? I'm curious as to how far these will need to be from back walls (due to the rear exit transmission termination) and the side walls (due to the side firing woofers).


They were pretty easy to place in my room. Nothing out of the ordinary there. In Gary Dodd's small room we had to move his Alpha's over and place the A/V-4's close to the same spot to dial the bass in. In Roy Jackson's house he said he had no placement problems and at.

Keep in mind that the side firing woofers are only playing up to 125Hz. Everything below that point is pretty omni-directional. It really wouldn't matter a whole lot if they were facing forward, back, or down.

Quote
Would the stuffed upper compartment with the smallish open back qualify as an aperiodic alignment ? I guess I have never seen a transmission line tuned to that high a frequency.


Through some frequency ranges it could be classified that way or as an infinite baffle. As wavelengths get longer though there is some loading from the tapered T-line.

I can't wait for you guys to hear these.

DSK

New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #11 on: 20 Feb 2005, 10:22 pm »
Quote from: Danny
Keep in mind that the side firing woofers are only playing up to 125Hz. Everything below that point is pretty omni-directional. It really wouldn't matter a whole lot if they were facing forward, back, or down.


Danny, I understood that anything over approx 80hz was "directional" and that a woofer with a xover point of 125hz will play up higher than that (dependent on slope used). So, I'm puzzled as to your comment. Also, does side/rear/bottom mounting introduce phase issues?

Aside from aesthetics problems (a wide baffle box or a wider woofer box under narrower mid/tweeter box), won't a forward firing woofer always be better than a side firing one?

PS. I'm not disputing what you said, just trying to better understand.  :o

Harmon

New 3-way design
« Reply #12 on: 20 Feb 2005, 11:49 pm »
Hey Danny, what is the sensitivity on these babies.  Thanks

Danny Richie

Good questions.
« Reply #13 on: 21 Feb 2005, 01:37 am »
Quote
Danny, I understood that anything over approx 80hz was "directional" and that a woofer with a xover point of 125hz will play up higher than that (dependent on slope used). So, I'm puzzled as to your comment. Also, does side/rear/bottom mounting introduce phase issues?


I like your questions.

Lets look at an example. The top of the box is only 8" wide. This means that wavelengths longer than the size of the baffle will actually begin to wrap around the enclosure instead of just playing from the front of the enclosure forward.

When it does this it loses output. With the M-130 mounted on the 8" wide baffle this really starts showing up in the response measurement in the 800Hz range. It actually begins slightly above that, but by 800hz is down in output.

Now if the baffle were 16" wide, then the baffle step loss wouldn't occur until 500 to 600Hz and really be down at 400Hz. Everything below this begins to wrap around the enclosure.

So for this speaker everything being covered by the big woofer wraps around the enclosure in all directions.

Most companies get away with running the side loaded woofers up into the 200Hz range or higher. This one crosses in the 220Hz range:  http://www.josephaudio.com/specs.rm33si.html

Now the fact that it is playing above 80Hz does mean that it will have a perceived localized sound source. Meaning you can perceive where it is coming from. Below 80Hz it is really hard to detect any perceived placement. A little but not much. 50hz and down gets really tough to localize.

Phasing is an issue though. Where it is placed in relation to the mid-bass unit does require an acoustic alignment that will not allow them to cancel one another. Rest assured that these are acoustically aligned very well and the transition between them is seamless.

Quote
Aside from aesthetics problems (a wide baffle box or a wider woofer box under narrower mid/tweeter box), won't a forward firing woofer always be better than a side firing one?


If it played one octave higher it would.

The problem with front firing it is do so without creating a wide baffle around the mid-bass. A big wide front baffle does play havoc with imaging, sound stage size, and sound stage depth. Start making the front baffle real big and everything will sound like it plays from there forward.

Quote
Hey Danny, what is the sensitivity on these babies. Thanks


87db 1watt/1 meter, and these are an easy 8 ohm load.

DSK

Re: Good questions.
« Reply #14 on: 21 Feb 2005, 02:41 am »
Quote from: Danny
The problem with front firing it is do so without creating a wide baffle around the mid-bass. A big wide front baffle does play havoc with imaging, sound stage size, and sound stage depth. Start making the front baffle real big and everything will sound like it plays from there forward.
.


Thanks for the response, Danny.

Wouldn't mounting the woofer in its own (wider box), with the tweeter and mid driver mounted in their own narrower box sitting on top (perhaps with a spacer between if necessary to place the tweeter at ear level) negate the problems of mounting the mid driver in a wide baffled box, while also enabling frequencies from all drivers to reach the listener's ear simultaneously and also improve phasing? Perhaps subjective dynamics/slam would also improve as the bass driver is aimed at the listener (or close to)?

It would certainly look ugly compared to your new slim speaker, but I'm just trying to better understand the sonic reasons behind your design.

Danny Richie

New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #15 on: 21 Feb 2005, 03:08 am »
Quote
Wouldn't mounting the woofer in its own (wider box), with the tweeter and mid driver mounted in their own narrower box sitting on top (perhaps with a spacer between if necessary to place the tweeter at ear level) negate the problems of mounting the mid driver in a wide baffled box,


All of that is fine. It just doesn't look as good.

Quote
while also enabling frequencies from all drivers to reach the listener's ear simultaneously and also improve phasing?


Nope. It doesn't work that way.

The wavelength at 125Hz is about 10.8 feet long. How far away does the woofer need to be in this case to cause a phase problem? A long way.

Plus they are not far away from each other at all from a physical standpoint.

Then there is more to it than physical driver alignment. The crossover itself can shift phase quite a bit.

Quote
Perhaps subjective dynamics/slam would also improve as the bass driver is aimed at the listener (or close to)?


It makes no difference whether it is aimed at you or not. It hits the same either way. Sounds the same too. I even tried it that way just to see if there were any measured difference or subjective differences. There were none.

Brian71

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #16 on: 21 Feb 2005, 09:42 pm »

DSK

New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #17 on: 21 Feb 2005, 10:45 pm »
Quote from: Brian71
Hey DSK,

Is this what you want?  hehe

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/brian.corr@sbcglobal.net/detail?.dir=b448&.dnm=20d6.jpg&.src=ph



Hi Brian,
Whoa! Insert several Tim The Toolman grunts here :lol:   2 x 12" woofers per channel? That's one bad mother  :evil:  Is this your custom setup, or did you just sit your 2 subs atop each other just for the pic  8)

Actually, I do like the look of Danny's new AV4 speaker very much ...I wasn't actually disputing anything, just asking questions to better understand the reasons behind the design. As Clint Eastwood once said ..."A man's gotta know his limitations." and mine is certainly in speaker/xover design.

Unfortunately, living in Australia I wouldn't get to hear them, shipping of assembled units would be astronomical and building a kitset is not viable at the moment. And, I don't know how they would compare to my current speakers. But, it's fun dreaming and learning along the way.  :roll:

Brian71

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #18 on: 22 Feb 2005, 01:53 pm »
I just stacked my 2 subs and the top module off my VR4jr's for the pic.  But it does make you say 'hummmmmmm'.   :mrgreen:

Joey Skinner

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 33
New 3-way design sneak peek.
« Reply #19 on: 23 Feb 2005, 05:57 am »
What kind of power are these speakers going to need? Could you power the 12"s separately like subwoofers?