New 3-way design sneak peek.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #20 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 05:44 pm »

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What kind of power are these speakers going to need? Could you power the 12"s separately like subwoofers?

You can by-amp them with no problem.

You could also power them with a plate amp that has variable phase, variable gain, and allows crossover adjustment in the 80 to 120Hz range.

You then would not even need the passive crossover.

DSK · « **Reply #21 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 09:53 pm »

Quote from: Danny

Quote
What kind of power are these speakers going to need? Could you power the 12"s separately like subwoofers?

You can by-amp them with no problem.

You could also power them with a plate amp that has variable phase, variable gain, and allows crossover adjustment in the 80 to 120Hz range.

You then would not even need the passive crossover.

Danny, although removing the passive xover from the bass may improve bass articulation and even damping, wouldn't the loss of the HP filter on the midrange driver potentially cause worse problems as they would then try to play lower and possibly have compression, particularly when played louder?

PS. I'm assuming that the AV4 is a 3-way (not 2-way + sub) and that you aren't contemplating running the mid/tweeter off the plate amp.

samplesj · « **Reply #22 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 10:27 pm »

Quote from: DSK

Danny, although removing the passive xover from the bass may improve bass articulation and even damping, wouldn't the loss of the HP filter on the midrange driver potentially cause worse problems as they would then try to play lower and possibly have compression, particularly when played louder?

PS. I'm assuming that the AV4 is a 3-way (not 2-way + sub) and that you aren't contemplating running the mid/tweeter off the plate amp.

I'd say he meant active bi-amping with an active electronic crossover between the preamp and both amps (plate and normal).

These things look really interesting.

DSK · « **Reply #23 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 10:37 pm »

Quote from: samplesj

Quote from: DSK
Danny, although removing the passive xover from the bass may improve bass articulation and even damping, wouldn't the loss of the HP filter on the midrange driver potentially cause worse problems as they would then try to play lower and possibly have compression, particularly when played louder?

PS. I'm assuming that the AV4 is a 3-way (not 2-way + sub) and that you aren't contemplating running the mid/tweeter off the plate amp.

I'd say he meant active bi-amping with an active ele ...

But then you wouldn't need ... "a plate amp that has variable phase, variable gain, and allows crossover adjustment in the 80 to 120Hz range."

DFaulds · « **Reply #24 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 10:59 pm »

I'm pretty sure that Danny only meant that the plate amp with adjustable crossover would only replace the low pass section of the crossover, leaving the high pass leg that rolls off the LF to the mid-woofer.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #25 on:** 23 Feb 2005, 11:31 pm »

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I'm pretty sure that Danny only meant that the plate amp with adjustable crossover would only replace the low pass section of the crossover, leaving the high pass leg that rolls off the LF to the mid-woofer.

You are exactly right. The third order (electrical) high pass on the mid must be left in place.

Only the network on the woofer can be removed.

DSK · « **Reply #26 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 04:38 am »

Quote from: Danny

Quote
I'm pretty sure that Danny only meant that the plate amp with adjustable crossover would only replace the low pass section of the crossover, leaving the high pass leg that rolls off the LF to the mid-woofer.

You are exactly right. The third order (electrical) high pass on the mid must be left in place.

Only the network on the woofer can be removed.

Ah, thanks guys, I understand now

Tyson · « **Reply #27 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 04:48 am »

Those look great. Any chance you might be working on an MTM version of this? I ask because I'm eventually going to replace my crappy axiom speakers in my HT, and some towers with 25hz extensions might fit the bill nicely. And I've always found MTM designs to have quite a bit more dynamics than MT designs.....

DSK · « **Reply #28 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 04:50 am »

Danny, one more question if I may ...

If I was considering a "no holds barred" "full bandwidth" system and already had a very fast and musical sealed servo subwoofer that measures flat in room to below 20hz ....

Obviously I could cross down from AV4 to subwoofer at a very low frequency indeed. However, I could also afford to sacrifice some low end extension on the AV4 by making them into a "sealed" speaker. Do you feel that this would provide even better transient response and tonality, plus better integration with the sealed subwoofer?

DSK · « **Reply #29 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 12:06 pm »

Doh! I'm an idiot! I've gotta stop trying to do too many things at once. I just went back to page 1 and realised that this is not a ported design, it uses a PR instead. Sorry 'bout dat!

Danny, do you know the -3db, -6db, -10db "in room" frequencies of the AV4?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #30 on:** 24 Feb 2005, 05:02 pm »

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Those look great. Any chance you might be working on an MTM version of this?

I could do a MTM version but the lower woofer would have to be powered in order to equal the output level.

It barely reaches the output level of one M-130, and requires some room gain to balance out the output. In my large room it is a little bit of a gradual shelving down of the low end output that has really good extension. It is very clean, tightly controlled, smooth, and musical without any boominess.

In my room I still liked it with subs gently playing along with some music.

In the smaller rooms we tried these in the bottom end was really solid and very balanced with everything else with no need for a sub.

Nick V · « **Reply #31 on:** 1 Mar 2005, 08:14 pm »

Is it possible that you would pursue an MTM design, but using the eton mids and aurum cantus ribbon tweet? I love my diluceo's, but would love the opportunity to put them on surround duty and put the new bad boys up front. It would be especially good for music where I could acheive deeper frequency response as I don't generally use my sub while listening to music.

jon_010101 · « **Reply #32 on:** 1 Mar 2005, 09:52 pm »

Quote from: Nick V

Is it possible that you would pursue an MTM design, but using the eton mids and aurum cantus ribbon tweet?

Or, how about a subwoofer cabinet design to use as a Diluceo/Criterion stand? Like a watt/puppy combo of sorts? I'd buy one.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #33 on:** 1 Mar 2005, 10:45 pm »

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Is it possible that you would pursue an MTM design, but using the eton mids and aurum cantus ribbon tweet?

Nope, not at this time.

Quote

Or, how about a subwoofer cabinet design to use as a Diluceo/Criterion stand? Like a watt/puppy combo of sorts? I'd buy one.

Sounds like a good solution to me and very doable.

mnapuran · « **Reply #34 on:** 2 Mar 2005, 04:55 am »

Quote from: jon_010101

Quote from: Nick V
Is it possible that you would pursue an MTM design, but using the eton mids and aurum cantus ribbon tweet?

Or, how about a subwoofer cabinet design to use as a Diluceo/Criterion stand? Like a watt/puppy combo of sorts? I'd buy one.

hehe... sounds kinda like a design I did here.

Nick V · « **Reply #35 on:** 4 Mar 2005, 07:10 pm »

Quote from: Danny

Quote
Is it possible that you would pursue an MTM design, but using the eton mids and aurum cantus ribbon tweet?

Nope, not at this time.

Quote
Or, how about a subwoofer cabinet design to use as a Diluceo/Criterion stand? Like a watt/puppy combo of sorts? I'd buy one.

Sounds like a good solution to me and very doable.

I'd buy one too. Only question I suppose is would the speakers need to be sent in to limit their LF extension via high pass filter? Or would that be a simple enough modification to the existing crossover?

brj · « **Reply #36 on:** 31 Mar 2005, 08:15 am »

Hey Danny - how goes the new design? Have any pics of the finished design yet?

Thanks!

RAW · « **Reply #37 on:** 31 Mar 2005, 01:29 pm »

I will chime in this one!
As the latest photos will be coming from me.We are almost done the cabinets for Danny.Looking sweet.
I have not dropped the drivers in to listen to them till after I get them all finished .Saving that for the finally.

In the next week I will have them done and shipping them back to Danny.

Al

audiojerry · « **Reply #38 on:** 31 Mar 2005, 04:13 pm »

Danny, the design looks impressive, but I've not had much luck with 3 ways where a large woofer passes over to the mid/tweets at low frequencies because it requires the use of a very large capacitor, often electrolytic, which can really mess up the mid/high transparency.

How are you addressing this issue?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #39 on:** 31 Mar 2005, 05:07 pm »

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Danny, the design looks impressive, but I've not had much luck with 3 ways where a large woofer passes over to the mid/tweets at low frequencies because it requires the use of a very large capacitor, often electrolytic, which can really mess up the mid/high transparency.

How are you addressing this issue?

I sure did.

There is an electrical third order network removing the lows from the M-130. Cap values consist of 150uF for the first cap value and 300uF for the second cap value.

Using a pure poly cap here is not an option. They don't make them that large.

Using a pure electrolytic value for those was not an option either because it can have the effect that you described. They just won't charge and discharge fast enough and detail levels are smeared.

The answer was to use a combination of cap types to get the value needed and not have the disadvantages of large electrolytic's.

The 150uF value consists of 125uF of Electrolytic, 24uF Axon poly cap and a .1uF Sonicap.

The super fast .1uF Sonicap is the real difference maker. The mids are as transparent as any speaker I have heard. The open back design has much to do with that too. It is as if there is no box.

There is a second order electrical network on the 12" woofer. It has a 100uF cap in the shunt path. It consists of 80uF of Electrolytic, 20uF of Axon poly cap, and a .1uF Sonicap.

I could see no reason to cheap out on the low pass filter either.