[Sonicjoy]

Jonathon Janusz wrote:

Aside from subtle differences between the presentation and maybe tonal character of the music from 200Hz to 60Hz-ish (or lower on the NX-tremes) between the M165 and the servo sub drivers discussed above, the handoff frequency point between the servo subs and the main speakers is a key differentiator in going one way or the other for another I'd think more straightforward reason.

Because the floor standers play lower in frequency, it is arguably easier to integrate the servo subs because the necessary crossover frequency is lower - the perceptional transition between drivers may be more easily made less noticeable and one (given the space) could better place the subs for optimal bass response like more traditional subwoofers rather than woofers as part of a 3-way full-range floorstanding speaker.  Because the MTM alone can't play as low, the servo subs all but have to be located as close to the MTM as possible because the servo subs are playing high up enough that if they were separated it would be significantly more noticeable.

Sure, if one could plop the NX floor standers on top of the servo subs, there is no reason one couldn't still cross over to the subs down low if one was after the presentation below 200Hz of the M165 rather than the servo subs.  In this case, one would be optimizing placement of the subs simply to accommodate space in the room (the point of this thread) rather than optimizing the placement of the subs for sound (not necessarily mutually exclusive, but very room dependent). 

I agree with all this. I think the best use of subs is to augment full range speakers as opposed to sat sub combo's. Taking the lowest frequency load off of them allows them to do what they do best.

The MTM's with subs will need a higher crossover point no doubt and would seem to be more of a compromise than using the NX-Otica on top of the sub set up.

It seems to me that the servo sub amps have a lot of adjustability to help compensate for placement within the room. Vandersteen as an example is doing this with their built in powered subs in the higher end speakers though they are not OB.

And you are right that it is room dependent. We all do need to try and find speakers/subs that work in our individual rooms. In my room I could use the NX-Otica or NX-Treme's and separate OB serve subs but only a double stack because the room is a dual use 2 channel theater and music set up. I use a projector and motorized screen. The only location for the OB subs is right next to and inboard of the speakers that are 5 feet from the front wall. This puts them under the screen and thus they can only be so tall. I would love to use a triple stack ideally.

Also, I'd think that having the subs away from the mains reduces the possible effects of vibrations from the subs making their way to coloring the sound of the mains, which obviously is not possible with the MTM if the MTM is attached to or uses the servo sub cabinet as a stand.  Granted this bit is very much splitting hairs, but I suppose when trying to discuss the very bleeding edge of performance, that's where the conversation lives.

Yes I think about this as well but have not heard much about the effect it has on the upper frequency but it make sense that it will have some effect. We are always trying to deal with vibrations in the rest of the equipment chain.

[Sonicjoy]

I want to thank everyone that contributed to this idea.  It has been a fun thought experiment. At this point I'm not sure what else can be added without actually building one and trying it.
Maybe some day.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Likewise! It was a lotta fun!

[Early B.]

Also, I'd think that having the subs away from the mains reduces the possible effects of vibrations from the subs making their way to coloring the sound of the mains, which obviously is not possible with the MTM if the MTM is attached to or uses the servo sub cabinet as a stand. 

Although in theory, it sounds good, but practical considerations make having subs away form the mains problematic. First, this thread is about solving the floor space issue, but subs from the mains creates clutter, quite frankly. I tried it for a while, and it sounded slightly different, but not better than when my monitors are stacked on my subs. There are better ways to manage vibrations. Begin by building an inert enclosure. Then there are tons of vibration dampening systems and products available. 

[Tyson]

I want to thank everyone that contributed to this idea.  It has been a fun thought experiment. At this point I'm not sure what else can be added without actually building one and trying it.
Maybe some day.

Just to throw my $.02 in, if it were me I'd do a NX-Ottica tower as an WW-M-T-M-WW configuration, but then I'd put OB 2 subs at the bottom and 2 OB subs at the top, so you'd get a SS-WW-M-T-M-WW-SS config. 

Only caveat - it would be tall!  and maybe even a bit top heavy so you'd need a really wide base to stabilize it. 

[Danny Richie]

So then the next question and what has been on my mind for a while now is bringing back the 8" servo subs.

Three 8's right below that MTM would be a pretty slick solution.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Im glad to hear you're looking into bringing them back!
Id love to use them as sealed subs for the NX Studios so i can keep them up on the desk instead of one bigger one stuck below.. lol

[Captainhemo]

Was hesitant to mention   this as  wasn't sure onthe  status of the   drivers..
As you  know,  been work soon some  designs  using them

jay

[Sonicjoy]

Just to throw my $.02 in, if it were me I'd do a NX-Ottica tower as an WW-M-T-M-WW configuration, but then I'd put OB 2 subs at the bottom and 2 OB subs at the top, so you'd get a SS-WW-M-T-M-WW-SS config.

Only caveat - it would be tall!  and maybe even a bit top heavy so you'd need a really wide base to stabilize it. 

Tyson that would be a sight to behold for sure! I actually like the idea of introducing deep bass from multiple locations in the room. That would be kind of a vertical implementation of the swarm sub concept. You would want to make them modular so they can assembled in place cause damn they would be heavy!

I have thought of suspending a second pair from the ceiling but your idea would be easier to do. And from a wiring standpoint as well.

Ok so maybe we can keep this thread going.  I should have known.     

[Sonicjoy]

A slight correction Tyson to your idea. There is only room for one sub on the bottom. Two would be too tall. (Though I suppose you could put the subs side by side? That would make a nice wide base.)  I'm looking at the NX-Treme's as an example for sizing. http://gr-research.com/nx-treme.aspx Could maybe have one on the bottom and two on top???

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Could take a pair of H/W-frames, on their side, some isolation, the smaller NX-Treme, then another H/W-Frame held up just over the main tower, with open frame supports. (Likely steel piping frame filled with sand/kittylitter, to minimize reflections/resonance esp on the opened side baffles.)

[Sonicjoy]

LOL! Let's see how "X-Treme" we can go Hobbs!

[Tyson]

A slight correction Tyson to your idea. There is only room for one sub on the bottom. Two would be too tall. (Though I suppose you could put the subs side by side? That would make a nice wide base.)  I'm looking at the NX-Treme's as an example for sizing. http://gr-research.com/nx-treme.aspx Could maybe have one on the bottom and two on top???

My assumption is that if you're doing a speaker this mighty, you're going to have a large (and tall) room to put them in, otherwise it would be a waste.  But 10 foot ceilings should accommodate them. 

And re-inforcing the box would definitely be needed - when it gets this big/heavy I start to worry about the structural integrity of MDF.

[RonP]

So then the next question and what has been on my mind for a while now is bringing back the 8" servo subs.

Three 8's right below that MTM would be a pretty slick solution.

interesting!
 

[Sonicjoy]

My assumption is that if you're doing a speaker this mighty, you're going to have a large (and tall) room to put them in, otherwise it would be a waste.  But 10 foot ceilings should accommodate them.

And re-inforcing the box would definitely be needed - when it gets this big/heavy I start to worry about the structural integrity of MDF.

LOL! I suppose you could jack up the listening seat a foot or so to compensate. Oh I know, you could build a platform under the seat and put one of those butt shakers in it for the ultimate seat of the pants experience! 

And ya you would need to reinforce the speakers. That open wing design would want to twist and flex under the weight of dual subs on top. Yikes!

[Early B.]

I'd suggest sticking with 12-inch subs. First, the 8-inchers aren't available. Second, two 12-inch woofers are better and readily available.     

[mlundy57]

So then the next question and what has been on my mind for a while now is bringing back the 8" servo subs.

Three 8's right below that MTM would be a pretty slick solution.

I have had both triple OB 8s and dual OB 12s under the Wedgies. If I could only have one, I'd prefer the 12s. However, triple OB 8's as midbass drivers under the MTMs backed by triple OB 12s would be killer. I built a system like this with Wedgies for a client once, though it had dual 12s instead of triples. Now that was something.

[Early B.]

However, triple OB 8's as midbass drivers under the MTMs backed by triple OB 12s would be killer.

Oh, yeah. That would be cool.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

LOL! Let's see how "X-Treme" we can go Hobbs!

I wasn't ready for how this ended up... also included a couple 8" woofer optionsfir the MTMs while i was at it.

Just remember, you asked for this...   

[mlundy57]

Touching on my comment in my X-Statik thread that was quoted here in this thread... Whether I'm right or wrong about the lower mid-bass driver being affected by the large flat top panel of the OB sub or not, I don't know. Maybe if there is any odd reflections or resonances there, they can be mitigated with a sheet of No-Rez. I figured that's why Danny designed the X-Static and his OB 5's and OB 7's with the slanted top panel on the bass enclosures, to reduce or eliminate any interference with the rear wave of the lower mid-bass driver.

Also, again, I could be right or wrong on this as well, but even though everyone who's heard the MTM/sub combo said they sound excellent (which I'm sure they do), I still can't help but think something is being given up in that 200 Hz crossover region. With the MTM section only playing down to 200 Hz, and asking 12" drivers to play up to 200 Hz. Servo controlled or not, I can't help but think that they still don't offer the kind of clarity, dynamics and impact that a line of dedicated 6.5" woofers would. Not to mention, the tonal balance between those 12" drivers and the 6.5" drivers have to be somewhat different as well.

I mean, there's got to be a reason why Danny created the NX-Otica and NX-Treme rather than just creating the MTM, throwing them on the subs and leaving it at that.

Danny created the NX-Otica and NX-Treme. The NX-Otica MTM came about because I already had the Wedgies on top of dual 12s and wondered if there was a way to do something similar with the NX-Otica so I could experience it in my room which is too small for four separate speakers. Jay was kind enough to supply me with a pair of baffles and side wings he cut down from NX-Otica parts that had a defect in them but would work for this experiment. I cut bases to fit, built out the prototypes and sent them to Danny for testing to see what crossover modifications would be needed. After he determined the crossover, Ed and I each built out a pair form Jay's cobbled together parts. The result was exceptional and filled the need of getting NX-Otica performance in a room that was too small for the full size NX-Oticas. Ed and I documented out builds and impressions and enough folks liked this idea Jay made up flatpacks and the NX-Otica MTM was born.

Yes the is something given up between the NX-Oticas and the MTMs. That's the trade off for getting NX-Otica performance in a small room. Room large enough for NX-Oticas and subs, go for it. Get all the detail and all the bass. Room too small for four speakers, go with NX-Oticas and give up low bass or go with MTM/dual sub combo and give up some mid to upper bass detail. Everything has tradeoffs.