Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master

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sandston

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Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« on: 22 Sep 2019, 05:34 pm »
I was wondering who out there has upgraded the crossover in their M3 Triode Master and what they used and how successful they feel their results were. As much as I love the overall presentation of M3TM I feel there is room for improvement in the upper frequencies. I was initially thinking to start with a bypass capacitor but after seeing the crossover components used there seems to be room for improvement over the $20 in components used.
« Last Edit: 26 Sep 2019, 03:35 am by sandston »

Dakotaconcrete

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #1 on: 8 Oct 2019, 12:16 am »
Perhaps apples to oranges, but I am currently awaiting parts for a complete crossover mod to my Spatial M4 Turbo S. Keeping the values the same as original. Just wanted to see what, if any, an upgrade can provide. Focused primarily on the tweeter section, initially, and then decided to do an entirely new crossover in case I didn't like the result and wanted to switch back, easily. Was not dissatisfied with the stock sound, so much as I just enjoy the interaction with equipment.

ric

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #2 on: 8 Oct 2019, 02:25 pm »
Please see my comments on page 2 of the Spatial Audio section under Spatial M3 Turbo Crossover pics. I don't know if I commented on the Path Audio resistor, since I put that in last, but if you want to start somewhere less expensive, try the path audio. I ordered mine from England, and was surprised that it only took about a week and shipping cost was very low. The (truncated) highs went vertical, to the ceiling (and beyond).
I understand you are asking about the Triode Masters, which I believe upgraded a few of the crossover parts (as long as they fit in the minuscule Xover space) but for myself--very happy camper. Let me know if I can comment on anything else pertinent to aforementioned comments, thanks and good luck!

sandston

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #3 on: 9 Oct 2019, 11:32 pm »
So I've started the upgrade path for for my M3 Triode Masters crossovers. Clayton at Spatial was nice enough to spend a little time with me on the phone with me and shared some of his thoughts. Top notch customer service.

I am replacing both the resistors in the tweeter section with the Path Audio Resistors (30 ohm and 3 ohm). From what I've read, including ric's testimony referenced above, if you have resistors in the signal path of your crossover these are transparency kings.  I have not decided what capacitor to use in the parallel notch filter (6.8uF) but will probably replace the inductor in the parallel notch filter (.5mH) with a Jantzen Wax/foil unit.

The main capacitor in the tweeter crossover I am replacing with Jupiter copper foil/paper/wax capacitor (1.5uF).

For the woofers I am replacing the inductor with a Jantzen C-Coil. There isn't much info on this inductor but Clayton really seemed to think highly of it. Its only good for lower frequencies apparently but when kept in its parameters it supposed to be very good and reasonably priced.

Going to take me awhile to wire it all up but will report back soon.

SnowPuppy77

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #4 on: 10 Oct 2019, 12:34 pm »
So I've started the upgrade path for for my M3 Triode Masters crossovers. Clayton at Spatial was nice enough to spend a little time with me on the phone with me and shared some of his thoughts. Top notch customer service.

I am replacing both the resistors in the tweeter section with the Path Audio Resistors (30 ohm and 3 ohm). From what I've read, including ric's testimony referenced above, if you have resistors in the signal path of your crossover these are transparency kings.  I have not decided what capacitor to use in the parallel notch filter (6.8uF) but will probably replace the inductor in the parallel notch filter (.5mH) with a Jantzen Wax/foil unit.

The main capacitor in the tweeter crossover I am replacing with Jupiter copper foil/paper/wax capacitor (1.5uF).

For the woofers I am replacing the inductor with a Jantzen C-Coil. There isn't much info on this inductor but Clayton really seemed to think highly of it. Its only good for lower frequencies apparently but when kept in its parameters it supposed to be very good and reasonably priced.

Going to take me awhile to wire it all up but will report back soon.

Look forward to hearing your impressions not only on the sound quality improvement but level of difficulty in performing the upgrade.

ric

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #5 on: 10 Oct 2019, 02:11 pm »
Great! Keep in mind that there is the usual break in involved, expect to hear differences after a few hours to 40-80 hrs. When I put in the (lesser priced) Jupiter Aluminum caps, I was hearing some "hash" or roughness when there were louder or more intense passages, especially with orchestral music. At the time, it was noticeable, but minor and I thought "I'll just live with it", but fortunately that was part of the (extended) break in time, and now there is nothing but music, no hash or grain.
As Chris from Jupiter Caps said to me "I think you'll be very pleased".
I am, and you should be too!

rollo

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #6 on: 10 Oct 2019, 02:32 pm »
  Have you considered moving crossover out of speaker ? Meaning external crossover.


charles

ric

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #7 on: 10 Oct 2019, 02:44 pm »
I had no choice. The physical size of the crossover conversion did not allow for compactness. Moving the Xover on the outside allowed me to 1) experiment with the wiring from the Xover to the speakers and 2) allowed me to try putting isolation under the Xovers. Both have improved the sound.

rollo

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #8 on: 10 Oct 2019, 05:57 pm »
  Cool. That is what I suspected. Every speaker we have had that was modded with external crossover was a huge step in the right direction. I am a big fan of outboard crossovers.
  So far for us these brands benefited using outboard crossovers. , B&W, Analysis and Magnepan. Remember everything is built to a price point. As an example an ALL silver Duelund crossover could cost 5K ea.
  At least you conferred with Clayton. That was smart. ENJOY !!!


charles

undertowogt1

Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #9 on: 11 Oct 2019, 12:11 am »
I look forward to hearing you thoughts on your final sound and hopefully seeing some pics of your project in the future. I plan to tackle this in the near future myself. When you are finished can you list your parts used?

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=83325.0

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150989.0

sandston

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #10 on: 13 Oct 2019, 03:10 am »
There really is no choice but to go external with the crossover due to the limited size of the crossover cavity. I am laying out the components on my boards this weekend and building a box to house it all. I will take some progress pictures to share.

I am curious how much effect the lower DCR on the Jantzen C-Coil inductor at .07mH versus the stock unit at .35mH is going to effect the output level of the bass drivers. Does anyone have experience with? Is this something I will need to compensate for?

ric

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #11 on: 13 Oct 2019, 01:46 pm »
Perhaps talking to Clayton or someone like Chris at Jupiter caps. He had cautioned me not to replace too much at one time because if there's a problem it's harder to detect where the problem is.
The work I have done to the Xover's has me realizing that Xover's should be considered as one would a component and at some point it would be great to see a modular interface with the speaker that would allow one to interchange Xover boards/parts according to price and sound quality.

morganc

Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #12 on: 13 Oct 2019, 05:03 pm »
I have M3 TM and would like to try out a few options especially for:
1. The high end
2. In order of cheapest to more expensive. 

Of course I know caps can get super pricey, but what's the best bang for the buck? 

Thanks for your thoughts!

Morgan

undertowogt1

Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #13 on: 13 Oct 2019, 05:37 pm »
I have M3 TM and would like to try out a few options especially for:
1. The high end
2. In order of cheapest to more expensive. 

Of course I know caps can get super pricey, but what's the best bang for the buck? 

Thanks for your thoughts!

Morgan
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150989.0

morganc

Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #14 on: 13 Oct 2019, 06:17 pm »
Yep.  Ive already read that thread.  Thanks.

morganc

Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #15 on: 13 Oct 2019, 06:20 pm »
Yep.  Ive already read that thread.  Thanks and my questions still stand.

Early B.

Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #16 on: 13 Oct 2019, 09:15 pm »
Of course I know caps can get super pricey, but what's the best bang for the buck? 

Go with Miflex. Soniccraft carries them. 

Audiophile58

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #17 on: 15 Oct 2019, 08:17 am »
With these speakers if you want the best resistors  the Path Audio by far the best and give added resolution.
Capacitors  the Excellent Audyn True Copper Max ,from Germany ,  if parts connecxion does not have the resistor values then order from Hifi collective in the U.K. 2-3 day FedEx  is only $30
With Audio connecxion you get the overnight saver for %14.95, and get  a small roll of Cardas solder
For around $30 , you don’t want cheap solder it leave a brighter sound .i have been modding Xovers for years
The caps sound very natural and up there with the excellent Jupiter copper foil at half the cost.

rollo

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #18 on: 15 Oct 2019, 02:32 pm »
I was wondering who out there has upgraded the crossover in their M3 Triode Master and what they used and how successful they feel their results were. As much as I love the overall presentation of M3TM I feel there is room for improvement in the upper frequencies. I was initially thinking to start with a bypass capacitor but after seeing the crossover components used there seems to be room for improvement over the $20 in components used.

  What actually do you feel needs improvement is top end ? Extension ? Tonality ? Timbre ? I ask since it it usually a component upstream. Reason I ask is yesterday I listened to them with a Luxman integrated and then an Audio Hungary intergrated. Two totally different presentations with top end. Luxman rolled it off Audio Hungary opened it up. Tonality was dark with Luxman. Natural with Audio Hungary. Source was an Esoteric CD player.
My conclusion was that this speaker will give you what you feed it. So before you spend the money on new crossover parts borrow another amp or front end.

charles

ric

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Re: Crossover Upgrades M3 Triode Master
« Reply #19 on: 15 Oct 2019, 02:33 pm »
I agree, the path audio resistors will give you the best bang for the buck with the exception that I replaced the resistors last, so I can't comment on how they will sound by themselves. If you like what you hear, then consider upgrading other parts.