[Cheytak.408]

 

Giving you the benefit of the doubt presuming that you just didn't understand the question and are not simply being antagonistic and snarky, an image of a power cord you are using is not what PDR was asking for.  He asked that those who have heard a difference in cabling to provide some information about the systems - and in the words within his question specifically the rooms those systems are in - in which these differences have been heard.

I won't speculate as to why, but hope to steer the conversation back closer to the direction of spirited but possibly constructive. 

[Elizabeth]

Why would anyone provide you with what you want (apparently photos and lists of equipment)? Why offer you ammunition for whatever attack you plan on mounting? Not me.
Plus it has no bearing.. unless of course you are planning to attack the folks who find wires to matter.
The notion that it is to 'edify' others what sort of systems on can hear wire IN? I do not believe it for a second.

I have already written several places when I had cheaper gear, I never heard any differences. When I had a $1800 Forte'4A amp, I was surprised I could hear a difference. and I only bought that cord because it was cheaper than I could make myself. (at teh time I was not much of a believer in any wires,)
When I upgraded to $5000 a pop gear back in 2010, I really could hear some differences in wires, but not a lot. But did upgrade power cords to Pangea, and some slightly better IC.
Though I decided to go big on IC about four years ago. ($9000 big enough?)
When I upgraded to Magnepan 20.7s last year, and added piles of Furutech GTX duplex. yeah wow, I can hear the differences of tiny changes. Such as just moving the amp AC cord plug from the one GTX -D Gold in the the same box but just to the partner Furutech GTX -D Rhodium NCF duplex outlet (the amp btw is a Bryston 4B-SST²)
Same sort of thing have two powercords laying same place, one DH Labs wire with Furutech '28' plugs, the other Pangea AC14XL. so all that gets changed is the which cord into the IEC of the Furman conditioner. Not moving the cords at all. Large difference that one movement. The DH more mids and bass lose clarity, The XL more clarity slightly leaner sounding.
Would you like pictures of the plugs? LOL

[Photon46]

Elizabeth's last post regarding incremental additions and PDR's post about ABX testing in his own system point out two of the most exasperating aspects of trying to separate the effects of powers of suggestion from actual changes.

As Elizabeth points out, no one suggests that all cables make a difference in all applications. The fact that PDR's ABX testing with one or two brands of cables on a few pieces of equipment really isn't much of data pool to draw conclusions from. I don't doubt his test conclusions in his system, but that isn't the same as a universal rule. I've had the same null results in similar limited testing. On the other hand, when I tried different power cables with a PS Audio BHK Stereo 250, every power cable I tried affected the degree of harshness I heard on sibilant passages of harsh sounding recordings. Cable changes don't always make a  difference.

I've noticed what Elizabeth mentions in her last post: sometimes results aren't apparent until you've made several cable, outlet, or other changes. Sometimes you don't really appreciate what's happening until you remove all the cables, footers, outlets, or whatever. This contingency is nigh impossible to ABX test unless you have two identical rooms and systems.

As PDR's question regarding the systems in question, I imagine we all know that many of those posting in this thread have their systems listed in the link below their avatar?

[Jonathon Janusz]

Why would anyone provide you with what you want (apparently photos and lists of equipment)? Why offer you ammunition for whatever attack you plan on mounting? Not me.
Plus it has no bearing.. unless of course you are planning to attack the folks who find wires to matter.
The notion that it is to 'edify' others what sort of systems on can hear wire IN? I do not believe it for a second.

I'm sorry you so passionately feel that any dialogue on this subject that could be construed as some sort of personal attack unquestioningly will be, admittedly not without valid reason considering how some have described the historical track record of conversations on this topic.  I'm also sorry that my trying to clarify PDR's question for witchdoctor on the presumption that a personal attack was not anyone's intention seems to have somehow unintentionally upset you, by reading your continuing posts in this thread, even further than you were up to this point.

Your experiences, how you describe them, and how you've been generous enough to go in to detail about your system and its evolution both provide context for those experiences for those who have to follow along from the other side of an online forum and might even help someone in similar circumstances as yourself decide how they might approach this concept and ultimately improve their own system or the enjoyment of it by way of your advice. 

Trying to take a bit of emotion out of the words on a screen that might be read in to an online discussion, I would hope that folks discussing this topic are doing so from a position of looking for context and clarity to further their own pursuits, not necessarily along the same path as you but similarly to how you have pursued this hobby yourself.  Although maybe a little tense in a few spots, I am (if I am the only one, or brushed aside as naive or ignorantly optimistic so be it) choosing to believe that one "side" isn't "calling out" another, but one person in a civil conversation is simply asking for more information to move the conversation in a productive or constructive direction.

To close in answer to your closing question, no I don't think taking a photo of a power receptacle would be of much help; describing parameters of your system, room, acoustic treatment, etc. (which I know you personally have already offered a great deal of should someone want to go looking for it) that might give someone a glimpse of either what it took to be able to discern differences made by cabling or some things to try to get one's own system to be able to (more?) reliably do so could very well be.

For the record, I personally don't have a passionate stance on the subject either way.  There are some systems that I have heard that clearly to me changed in sound after cabling changes, and some that I have heard that various cabling didn't seem to make a difference to what I heard.  I have never conducted thorough and systematic scientific research (abx testing or otherwise) personally to speak on that, nor can I declare with any certainty or definitive margin of error that what I've heard is statistically valid or reliable.  All this is to say that I am more or less like just about all the rest of us in this hobby, save for that my opinion on the matter is something along the lines of, "I'm not sure why but maybe".

[PDR]

There really is no point.
Id have better luck converting religious apologists.
(some of them hear and see things as well....lol)

Liz......do yourself a favour and look up expectation bias.

Photon....please give me a number. Exactly how many different pieces
do I have to test? If I could hear a difference before the abx does that mean
my stuff is so crappy it just not revealing enough to tell after? If this is what you believe
can you show me the documented tests of the high end gear that passed abx?
I mean it should be night and day?....no?

I come here for the DIY stuff mostly, I've made some good friends
over build shares I've done over the last 10 years or so.
There are so many good designers that call this place home.

But this is not the place to come for science, sometimes I forget
this.

In the future I'll let the believers hold their service in peace.
They can share their experiences and how much money, I mean tythe,
they've paid to get to audio heaven.

A(udio)men

[Photon46]

PDR, no one is even remotely insinuating that your gear is inferior. Some components are just immune to the influence of power cable changes and that has nothing to do with being "crappy." As to why one sometimes hears a difference or sometimes not with cable changes, who knows? I can accept that there are interactions we don't understand. I know engineers who manufacture cables who freely admit they don't understand the variations as to why or how cables affect and interact with components.

As to the "night and day difference" you suggest we should hear, I'm afraid I don't  understand where you're coming from. Unlike many, I've never heard "jaw dropping" improvements from cable changes like some relate. I've heard demos where dealers went up the "food chain" of their cable products and I had a hard time hearing $15,000.00 worth of difference between a $3k cable and an $18k cable. Cable differences seem fairly subtle to my ears and brain, but add enough subtle improvements together and they can add up to better listening. 
 
If you read some of the earlier posts and links I referenced in this thread, it's clear I (and numerous others) have doubts that ABX or blind testing is the final word in discerning audio reality. In the course of my audio life, I've been as likely to find "controversial" tweaks like cables, footers, etc. to provoke a "meh" or "no difference" reaction as opposed to a positive impression. Perhaps the fact that I almost always buy such products used and can resell them for little to no loss makes me less invested in wishing for a validation of my purchasing decisions 

[timind]

I've been a member of this forum for nearly 15 years, and have to say the subject of this thread is the most tiresome imaginable. Just boring after all these years. The only thing I can think of that's more boring would be sitting and listening to my system to cables. Been there, done that, in the end, non-productive use of my time.

[Elizabeth]

It is true. The discussions about cables ARE boring. But oddly, folks just love to write to them.
Perhaps it is a sort of litmus test of our collective culture. No one changes anyone's mind, but the comments and arguments just keep on coming! Like some Primal Urge to spew. Sure some folks just try to skirt the subject, say boring! or like I am taking it apart like some psychoanalyst, still just spouting at the phenomenon.
Back in the middle age the arguments were about stuff like how many angels could dance on a pin... Now, for audiophiles it seems to be about cables. For other folks they have their own favorite topic to bicker about.

[witchdoctor]

Giving you the benefit of the doubt presuming that you just didn't understand the question and are not simply being antagonistic and snarky, an image of a power cord you are using is not what PDR was asking for.  He asked that those who have heard a difference in cabling to provide some information about the systems - and in the words within his question specifically the rooms those systems are in - in which these differences have been heard.

I won't speculate as to why, but hope to steer the conversation back closer to the direction of spirited but possibly constructive. 

I understand my Nite cable is room agnostic, use it in the living room, the dining room or even the garage. The room has 0 relevenace it will work wherever there is a plug. It was an irrelevent question in a power cord threat so I posted a picture of my power cord. Did you see it? The bloody thing is massive, it has three hoses for wires, powerful magnets at the connections which you can't see in the pic. It is power cord porn for those interested.

[witchdoctor]

I'm sorry you so passionately feel that any dialogue on this subject that could be construed as some sort of personal attack unquestioningly will be, admittedly not without valid reason considering how some have described the historical track record of conversations on this topic.  I'm also sorry that my trying to clarify PDR's question for witchdoctor on the presumption that a personal attack was not anyone's intention seems to have somehow unintentionally upset you, by reading your continuing posts in this thread, even further than you were up to this point.

Your experiences, how you describe them, and how you've been generous enough to go in to detail about your system and its evolution both provide context for those experiences for those who have to follow along from the other side of an online forum and might even help someone in similar circumstances as yourself decide how they might approach this concept and ultimately improve their own system or the enjoyment of it by way of your advice. 

Trying to take a bit of emotion out of the words on a screen that might be read in to an online discussion, I would hope that folks discussing this topic are doing so from a position of looking for context and clarity to further their own pursuits, not necessarily along the same path as you but similarly to how you have pursued this hobby yourself.  Although maybe a little tense in a few spots, I am (if I am the only one, or brushed aside as naive or ignorantly optimistic so be it) choosing to believe that one "side" isn't "calling out" another, but one person in a civil conversation is simply asking for more information to move the conversation in a productive or constructive direction.

To close in answer to your closing question, no I don't think taking a photo of a power receptacle would be of much help; describing parameters of your system, room, acoustic treatment, etc. (which I know you personally have already offered a great deal of should someone want to go looking for it) that might give someone a glimpse of either what it took to be able to discern differences made by cabling or some things to try to get one's own system to be able to (more?) reliably do so could very well be.

For the record, I personally don't have a passionate stance on the subject either way.  There are some systems that I have heard that clearly to me changed in sound after cabling changes, and some that I have heard that various cabling didn't seem to make a difference to what I heard.  I have never conducted thorough and systematic scientific research (abx testing or otherwise) personally to speak on that, nor can I declare with any certainty or definitive margin of error that what I've heard is statistically valid or reliable.  All this is to say that I am more or less like just about all the rest of us in this hobby, save for that my opinion on the matter is something along the lines of, "I'm not sure why but maybe".

Hmmm, this seems like you are satisfied with what you have, all good. Don't bother with "research", that is just what the witless fall back on when they can't think of what to post in a thread like this. Here is an article that discusses the benefits of POWER and this time it includes pics of the room. Almost all good cables come with a return policy, when you plug it in if you don't look like that guy in the old Maxell tape ad send it back.

https://www.electronichouse.com/home-audio/powered-up-for-auro-3d-surround-sound/

[witchdoctor]

please give me a number. Exactly how many different pieces
do I have to test?

Sleep well, the answer is 0. Your problem is NOT your cables, if you want help on your REAL problems regarding audio the witchdoctor gots your prescription, just start a new thread, NP.

[witchdoctor]

It is true. The discussions about cables ARE boring. But oddly, folks just love to write to them.
Perhaps it is a sort of litmus test of our collective culture. No one changes anyone's mind, but the comments and arguments just keep on coming! Like some Primal Urge to spew. Sure some folks just try to skirt the subject, say boring! or like I am taking it apart like some psychoanalyst, still just spouting at the phenomenon.
Back in the middle age the arguments were about stuff like how many angels could dance on a pin... Now, for audiophiles it seems to be about cables. For other folks they have their own favorite topic to bicker about.

POWER! This is about SHEER POWER! The life blood of your gear. Boring?? NOT.

[veloceleste]

Like some Primal Urge to spew.

Best line of the whole discussion. I love it! Not taking sides.

[witchdoctor]

Before excellent POWER:





AFTER excellent POWER:

[Jonathon Janusz]

It is true. The discussions about cables ARE boring. But oddly, folks just love to write to them...

Thank you for putting an exclamation point on your position (opinion) that this entire conversation is pointless.  In spite of this, if you have anything further you could add that could make the conversation more constructive, please do.  I may be in the minority, but I'm sad that just when I thought it might be getting somewhere, a few people felt the need to derail the conversation.  I guess I'll have to move on and try again the next time the (apparently) endlessly repeating topic resurfaces.

I understand my Nite cable is room agnostic, use it in the living room, the dining room or even the garage. The room has 0 relevenace it will work wherever there is a plug. It was an irrelevent question in a power cord threat so I posted a picture of my power cord. Did you see it? The bloody thing is massive, it has three hoses for wires, powerful magnets at the connections which you can't see in the pic. It is power cord porn for those interested.

Thank you for clarifying that you posted a picture of a power cord because you felt an appropriate answer to the question posed by the person you posted it in reply to was to not even attempt to answer the question asked because you thought the question irrelevant without simply stating that you thought it irrelevant with any constructive dialogue as to why.  I did in fact see your photo, which is why I hoped to sort out that although a nice picture of a power cord, that picture did little to nothing to answer the question asked.

Hmmm, this seems like you are satisfied with what you have, all good. Don't bother with "research", that is just what the witless fall back on when they can't think of what to post in a thread like this. Here is an article that discusses the benefits of POWER and this time it includes pics of the room. Almost all good cables come with a return policy, when you plug it in if you don't look like that guy in the old Maxell tape ad send it back.

I'm not sure how you gathered that notion from what I posted; although I am as content as I can be with what I have for now considering my broader circumstances, I took to following this thread because it - was - to me a topic of interest in thinking about how I might change or improve my stereo at some point in the indeterminate future.  For what little advice on the Internet is worth, slinging insults and particularly doing so when on a conversational track that paints you pretty clearly in an antagonistic tone is not necessarily the best look.  I wouldn't discount the slow but steady progress of scientific research as much as I wouldn't discount the possibility of insight from a significantly sized body of evidence gleaned from many individuals' personal experiences.  One gets us in the ballpark of an idea worth pursuing, the other gives us a solid framework upon which to take that idea and build on it toward bigger and better things in the future, or at least figure out what looked good on paper didn't really pan out in practice.

I'm sorry you felt the need to end this conversation by derailing it because you felt unable or unwilling to continue constructively contributing to it.  I'll just have to be patient and wait for the next time the subject comes around to see if it can get any further along the next time.

Thank you (both) for your time and thoughts as best you could bring them in to the discussion.

[Elizabeth]

Wow taking it personally? (and I am on YOUR SIDE) As always, many audiophiles have no sense of humor or irony.
Good luck btw...
Maybe you can find a safe haven, where all the audio mavens are kind and helpful.. Oh.. like here... 

[S Clark]

I wonder if HiFiDan, the poster that started this, has come away with anything useful?  Has anyone learned or taken away anything of value from the 6 preceding pages?

[Elizabeth]

I wonder if HiFiDan, the poster that started this, has come away with anything useful?  Has anyone learned or taken away anything of value from the 6 preceding pages?

I would guess: "Opening a the same can of worms for the five thousandth time? Results.. just the same can of old worms...

[Advance To Go]

My aftermarket power cords make my system sound like my speakers have bigger faster woofers and bigger image size.Same kind of improvements that bigger transformers make.

[witchdoctor]

Thank you for putting an exclamation point on your position (opinion) that this entire conversation is pointless.  In spite of this, if you have anything further you could add that could make the conversation more constructive, please do.  I may be in the minority, but I'm sad that just when I thought it might be getting somewhere, a few people felt the need to derail the conversation.  I guess I'll have to move on and try again the next time the (apparently) endlessly repeating topic resurfaces.

Thank you for clarifying that you posted a picture of a power cord because you felt an appropriate answer to the question posed by the person you posted it in reply to was to not even attempt to answer the question asked because you thought the question irrelevant without simply stating that you thought it irrelevant with any constructive dialogue as to why.  I did in fact see your photo, which is why I hoped to sort out that although a nice picture of a power cord, that picture did little to nothing to answer the question asked.

I'm not sure how you gathered that notion from what I posted; although I am as content as I can be with what I have for now considering my broader circumstances, I took to following this thread because it - was - to me a topic of interest in thinking about how I might change or improve my stereo at some point in the indeterminate future.  For what little advice on the Internet is worth, slinging insults and particularly doing so when on a conversational track that paints you pretty clearly in an antagonistic tone is not necessarily the best look.  I wouldn't discount the slow but steady progress of scientific research as much as I wouldn't discount the possibility of insight from a significantly sized body of evidence gleaned from many individuals' personal experiences.  One gets us in the ballpark of an idea worth pursuing, the other gives us a solid framework upon which to take that idea and build on it toward bigger and better things in the future, or at least figure out what looked good on paper didn't really pan out in practice.

I'm sorry you felt the need to end this conversation by derailing it because you felt unable or unwilling to continue constructively contributing to it.  I'll just have to be patient and wait for the next time the subject comes around to see if it can get any further along the next time.

Thank you (both) for your time and thoughts as best you could bring them in to the discussion.

In my reply to your post I provided what I thought was a great article re: power from Electronic House magazine along with pictures of a home theater with both good acoustic and power designs. I thought I ended our (me and you) discussion with helpful advice which still stands. Somethings you just need to audition rather then read about and there are many many vendors that offer return policies, you should take the leap.
What was your opinion of the article?