[Elizabeth]

That's good.  I don't think I've ever seen one of these threads where anyone learned anything.

AND HOW MANY TIMES have we repeated the same arguments, the same incredulities the same insults, the same result. An important chunk of the 'Human Condition' is clearly being shown to use all. Just we can never seem to learn anything from it Since we all do over again a few weeks later... I have easily been in at least two hundred of these 'discussions' since the internet was born. Nothing has really changed.
Things that have changed fewer folks use the 'miles of wire' up to the so called power cord ploy, since the invention of the claim the cord is the first few feet the transformer sees. (Like really?)
And the fact when I started I was firmly on the wire is just wire side.   

[Elizabeth]

The cable believers keep hoping the atheists will someday trust their ears

That actually happens. Not in large mass conversions, but often enough. I used to be a wire is just wire type, then I finally actually heard a difference. And I am not the only convert.
Otherwise the argument is true.

[witchdoctor]

I asked for science.  Except for the study of line noise in medical systems -- which I don't see as particularly relevant to home audio -- all that's been offered here is uncontrolled "I replaced cord X with cord Y, and WOW! -- I heard a difference!" 

That's not science.  But I've learned what I need to know.

You need to do your own research man, this is a chat room not Bell Labs.

[witchdoctor]

Since you are writing the way you do, how things ARE and not how you perceive them to be, I assume you performed controlled blind test where you could confirm your impression with a statistical significance of at least >95%?

Do your own "tests", let the guy enjoy, he's not a lab rat OK?

[Ola_S]

Do your own "tests", let the guy enjoy, he's not a lab rat OK?

Sorry, it was question, are you no't allowed to ask those on a forum? If you say that things ARE I assume you really know, if I would have done open tests I would use a more humble language and not stating how things ARE. And you don't have to be a lab rat to conduct a blind test and to calculate a statistical significance, any person with normal intelligence would be able to conduct such a test if they wanted. I can however understand that people do not have an interest conducting these test, ok by me, but then they should avoid stating how things are (because they clearly do not know).

Fyi, I have made own tests with high end power cords and have never heard any difference, even in open tests.   

[S Clark]

... I have made own tests with high end power cords and have never heard any difference, even in open tests.

This is a valid statement.  Likewise, I have made my own test and consistently heard differences... an equally valid statement.

[Ola_S]

This is a valid statement.  Likewise, I have made my own test and consistently heard differences... an equally valid statement.

To get something completely clear, that I have not heard any difference is not a proof that there are no differences. I can't say that I did hear differences in open test and therefore skipped the blind ones. So my statement does not really contain any information whatsoever. A null test doesn't prove anything and in scientific terms, the absence of something can't be proved.

When you say that you heard a difference in open test is just like my statement, it does not contain any information really. You perceived a difference but that does not prove that there is a difference.

I have made few blind tests over the years and many times I actually heard a difference but sometimes I thought I heard one but could not verify that in the blind testing. I would argue that you should trust you ears (and only the ears), why are so many audiophiles depending on the knowledge what is connect in order to hear a difference??

[G E]

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[Elizabeth]

For 'hearing a difference'.... First off, there is a threshold ofr quality of the whole system to be able to begin to hear small differences. As the quality of the total system increases.. it gets easier to hear changes due to wires. 
For example. Back in the 2000's I owned equipment costing like a few hundred to $1000 to $2000. And the first time I heard any difference was with a power cord I bought (ONLY because it was cheaper than I could make! An AC9 Pangea, when they first came out, cheap!!) and discovered to my AMAZEMENT with it on the Forte 4A amp I owned The bass was tighter and 'better' to a small but hearable amount. with that cord on the amp than the OEM one. First time I heard a difference! Prior to that I did not have any 'belief' that one could hear a difference. 

In 2010 I retired, and spent a pile of money upgrading a few bits to typical $5000 a pop. Speakers, amp, preamp.. Plus I added a power conditioner. After those items I realized I could hear differences in interconnects too. Not huge differences, more like the same little changes I heard in that first powercord, but also noting less grunge in the treble, greater clarity. And I bought more Pangea powercords. Low priced ones. but still aftermarket.
After five years I decided to try some better IC, and went for then new Cardas Parsec. I liked them in general, but the one long one I would need (7meter) from the gap from pre to amp sounded not very good. Well it took me another few years to just jump in the deep end of the IC pool and bought ONE $3200 pair of IC for the 7 meter pair. and was a good sounding choice. So I bought a few more of the same sort for the shorter runs (Kimber KS 1016, KS 1116) For the huge price the difference was tiny, but I was thinking of the future upgrades... (clearly by then I became a 'believer')

Get to last year, 2018, I did major upgrades to speakers, source. To Magnepan 20.7 speakers (without which I doubt I would be able to hear a lot of what I can now hear from the wires etc) and from a used $250 DAC to a $7000 DAC which after auditioning at home for five days, really is better enough to float the cost. (I probably would not have heard the difference without the $13,850 speakers!).
Then on a lark, and because they were on sale, I bought a few Furutech duplex. GTX-D Two gold, one Rhodium NCF. Well they made a big positive difference! over the basic Pass & Seymour I had used. Clarity, better sounding right off. So I bought a few more, and over two months bought 17 of them, and even put them into the two power conditioners.. This is were suddenly I can hear changes as small as swapping a power cord from a gold to a rhodium AC duplex. Differences in $200 power cords.
And then (also because in sale) I bought a few PS Audio noise Harvesters, They did some good, bought more. total of seven now. Borrowed a noise sniffer from local dealer, and worked out what is adding noise... (there is a post here somewhere about it) and got even better sound.
The latest I can hear subtle changes from tiny adjustments to the Magnepan 20.7 midrange resistors.. Plus differences in quality of the resistors.

All that to just say it takes a level of quality in the gear to really be able to hear the differences in wires.

[Elizabeth]

I think the argument for room tuning belongs in another thread of it's own. I suggest to G.E. to start such a thread! Just cut and paste your post!!
Looks like G.E. took the advice to not derail this thread. Thanks G.E.

[Ola_S]

For 'hearing a difference'.... First off, there is a threshold ofr quality of the whole system to be able to begin to hear small differences. As the quality of the total system increases.. it gets easier to hear changes due to wires.

You could also argue: If your gear is so sensitive to a power cord it must be a really poorly designed. My friend is making top notch amplifiers and he would not dream of supplying it with something else than a standard power cord.

Sybarite Audio no1622

[G E]

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[G E]

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[Elizabeth]

You could also argue: If your gear is so sensitive to a power cord it must be a really poorly designed. My friend is making top notch amplifiers and he would not dream of supplying it with something else than a standard power cord.

As an analogy to a high performance sport car running on the Nürburgring.. IF changing the tire pressure 1psi makes a difference between record track times and crashing.. "You could also argue": Car manufactures say they make cars which you can change the psi fro 15psi to 40 psi and the car runs just fine! So that 'sport car' must be DEFECTIVE of it needs such fine tuning..
And I am sure 'top notch' engineers at that car company as just as certain they are correct.

So if all you want is what some guy decided you should be satisfied with? Then by all means go for it.

[maxima95]

"You could also argue: If your gear is so sensitive to a power cord it must be a really poorly designed. My friend is making top notch amplifiers and he would not dream of supplying it with something else than a standard power cord."

I have seen this ludicrous presumption before.  There must be an overwhelming amount of poorly designed audio equipment that sounds very, very good. 

If the equipment sounds bad due to a power cord change, does that mean it is well designed?

 

[sfraser]

From an Engineering perspective there is no basis that one well constructed cable, suitable for the application  will sound different from another. Power cables included. However, from a psychological perspective there is lots of evidence that the human mind/ears (of  EVERYONE) can be  influenced to hear what they want to hear. It's all ok, it's a great hobby , and if a particular cable, power cord etc increase's your enjoyment of your hobby because you percieve a positive attribute with it's additon ,  go for it! I does not matter if the attribute is measurable, or between your ears, if  it enhances your experieince.

Happy listening!


Scott

[Elizabeth]

From an Engineering perspective there is no basis that one well constructed cable, suitable for the application  will sound different from another. Power cables included. However, from a psychological perspective there is lots of evidence that the human mind/ears (of  EVERYONE) can be  influenced to hear what they want to hear.

Happy listening!Scott

Two points. "From an Engineering perspective" is just that, it has nothing to do with from an audiophile perspective. to the Engineer, the rules they have are all that exists, they have no interest or need to go beyond the mindset they have. Which is if it cannot be measured in the ways they measure now, it DOES NOT EXIST.
Secondly the red herring of claiming (by leaving out any other possibility) that it is all fantasy.  There can be other possibilities. The number one is that engineers just do not care,or are currently at a loss how to.. about finding HOW to measure the differences plenty of folks can hear.

[Calypte]

That's good.  I don't think I've ever seen one of these threads where anyone learned anything.

What I learned (up to the point where I stopped reading the thread) is that nobody could supply any science.  I stated in my first comment that I don't claim to be immune to autosuggestion (the self-persuasion that newer and more-expensive gear sounds "better"), but my self-gullibility stops when the topic comes to power cords and $23K speaker wires.  Those of you who have persuaded yourselves that a 3-ft piece of wire connected to a continental-scale power grid provides "improved" sound should demand to know why Bryston doesn't provide such power cords as standard equipment with their gear.  The additional cost to a $10,000 amplifier should be minor, with zero effect on sales.

I wouldn't be surprised if this entire thread ends up being deleted.  That's fine with me.

[witchdoctor]

What I learned (up to the point where I stopped reading the thread) is that nobody could supply any science.  I stated in my first comment that I don't claim to be immune to autosuggestion (the self-persuasion that newer and more-expensive gear sounds "better"), but my self-gullibility stops when the topic comes to power cords and $23K speaker wires.  Those of you who have persuaded yourselves that a 3-ft piece of wire connected to a continental-scale power grid provides "improved" sound should demand to know why Bryston doesn't provide such power cords as standard equipment with their gear.  The additional cost to a $10,000 amplifier should be minor, with zero effect on sales.

I wouldn't be surprised if this entire thread ends up being deleted.  That's fine with me.

I call BS. If you had the science would you spend $$$ on a power cord? Would you even understand it? If you really buy based on "science" please share the research you have on your current speakers.

[Elizabeth]

The reason Bryston does not include an aftermarket cord was discussed. and explained. First off all the engineer types would be angry. Second half nay nine tenths of the aftermarket power cord users would THROW THAT OEM CORD AWAY... ANYWAY.