[Vincent Kars]

Can you translate 'convoker to do DRC' for me please?

Sorry for the techtalk

Roon's DSP has no means to measure room/speakers and only 6 channels of adjustment

I read this as that you want to measure the response of your room and adjust for it.
This is called DRC, Digital Room Correction.
This is done by mixing the audio with a target curve. That is called convolution.

[Phil A]

Remember, you're writing to a computer dunce, so most of the above is meaningless to me.  Frankly from my experience with the SGC my guess is that my MBA setup with REW or Dirac Live would be superior in terms of simplicity, cost, and SQ to any server without REW or Dirac Live.  Room shape/size/treatment can only get you so far to flat frequency response, which IMO is an essential audiophile requirement.

I understand but of course am not familiar with your room.  I treat to take care of the bad problems and I've never had anyone (and have had lots of people over) tell me I have a room problem.  Different things are important to different people.  There's also stuff like this to read over - https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=112201.0  or  http://diracdocs.com/JRiver&Dirac_Live_2.0.pdf

The reason I suggested go to listen with your own hard drive (and even bring your DAC) of music to Aurender or Lumin or both is so that you can hear what they are capable of, in addition to the fact that it won't likely require nearly as much computer know how.  You can of course decide whether it is right or wrong for you.

I've dealt with other people who are not computer savvy and I tell them basically the same thing.  If your budget can handle something like Aurender or Lumin and it is foryou upon listening, then buy it.  If not, then there probably is going to be some computer information you will either need to learn or have someone available to handle it.  There's plenty of solutions for what you want to do (e.g. https://xilica.com/   or   https://www.minidsp.com/  and even opinions by PS Audio - https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/dsp-and-bass/)

[JLM]

Yes, have looked into miniDSP SHD, it clicks all my boxes but had reservations about it's SQ and not familiar with it's OS, Volumio.  And audiosciencereview mentioned internal noise in their measurements.  And honestly the DSJ is the first DAC I've really been impressed by, so switching would seem to be a step backwards. 

I agree with PS Audio Paul regarding use of DSP.  His stated 200 Hz upper limit for using DSP corresponds roughly to the Schroder frequency, where in-room sound behavior transitions from bass waves to mid/treble rays and so where room effects are greatest, refer to Toole's "Sound Reproduction".

Your suggestion to bring my own HD for auditions is a good one, I might even bring my laptop.

Frankly I've never been impressed by SQ from various playback software versus just using iTunes.  Don't know why, guess I'm just a 'speaker/room guy'.  As stated above found that Roon has lots of nice features, but not worth $500 to me. 

So still left with my MBA, 10ft USB cable, and DSP versus spending money to get a server for significantly better SQ than SGC and possibly giving up DSP.

[jtwrace]

I’ll respond when I’m not mobile but you should really look into audiolense and using the convolution filter in Roon if you like Roons’ GUI.  There is probably no better way to do it.

[JDoyle]

JLM, I think you know way more than you give yourself credit for. I always enjoy reading your posts...

But maybe a fresh take on your setup might just be a better pair of speakers?

Or just adding the SOtM 200 https://sotm-usa.com/products/sms-200-neo-network-player or the newer ultra version if you’re budget allows? (Hans B. on YouTube goes Gaga over it).

In defense of Roon, I know so much praise has been heaped upon it that a first impression might leave one asking “what’s so great about it?”, but give it time and you'll find it absolutely wonderful for managing your music and discovering new/old stuff with Tidal.  Perhaps pay the yearly price of $119 along with Tidal $20/mo.

Then it’s only a “dollar a day” for a brilliant way to search and play! 

JD

[JoshK]

I'll add my $.02 here on how I do it. 

I am a technically inclined person who hadn't ever sat down to understand networking, servers/clients, apps that do such, etc.  And further had no interest in doing so really when I just wanted to enjoy music.  I had tried way long ago in the past with various solutions for making a dedicated server out of a PC and decided that was too much like work rather than relaxing and listening to music.   So when I really got serious about moving off of Logitech's bloated and slow AF software with squeezeboxes (they were super simple to setup at the time), I ended up getting a NAS, installing miminServer & bubbleUPnP on it (easy installs), putting my music on the NAS (NAS serves also as a NAS for my home network without much knowledge of networking, pretty plug and play) and then I use the Lumin app on my tablet or Ipad to control playback to my Directstream DAC.

So in essence, I have the following:
Synology NAS and loaded onto it miminServer & bubbleUPnP (dead simple installs, there are walk through pages too)
Installed Lumin on my tablet and point to the miminServer (again pages to show you the couple steps involved)
The Bridge II in my DSdac does the rest (I assume your DS jr is the same tech)

I then don't ever futz with anything apart from loading new music onto the NAS, which I do from my main computer system (laptop that acts like a desktop) for which I download music or rip new CDs and then I drag and drop it into the appropriate folder on my NAS (again I did a one time thing where I named a drive on my computer that points to that folder on the NAS). 

What my solution hasn't addressed is adding REW or Dirac, or other convolver (= basically a DSP thing), but I am certain you could do this with another specific app (such as Roon on the NAS if you wanted).  The thing is I am not sure why you want to do it on the server other than maybe convenience.  What do you use for crossover and eq for your subs, or are they just using plate amps?   The neat solutions I have seen run room EQ/sub setups for multiple subs and then load this into a miniDSP that is used to program your subs.  If you need to tweak the low end of the 708ps, you can do it on their EQ settings (only below 500hz IMO).  One time analysis, loading files and then done.  Then you don't need any other EQ or DSP settings in the server side.   More than one way to fry a fish I guess.

I like the Lumin app because it is simple, works excellently and is free.   I haven't used Tidal because their library doesn't suit my tastes, I use Spotify (lossy, but I use it to listen to music for the first time) and the Bridge II allows me to caste directly to it from any place I am using Spotify.

I don't get the point of audiophile servers nowadays.  They had their place when things were not-so-easy to setup.  But a NAS like Synology (btw, recent experience sells me on this company) makes it dead simple and your Jr DAC is a perfectly good renderer, so you don't need any other gear or boxes. 

A NAS is:
1) up-gradable easily for more storage
2) easier to replace failing drives
3) has awesome software for managing RAID redundant systems to make sure you don't loose your data in case of a HDD failure
4) makes it simple to do backup with installed programs
5) in the event of failure has guided processes to fix things
6) has the customer support for all of the above
7) does a lot more than just serve music if you have any interest (I keep copies of my important documents, pictures, etc)
has a huge community of users (more than any audiophile product) and dearth of 3rd party apps to plug in for things you might want to try (maybe convolvers?)

I had a QNAP (still have in fact) first and then got the Synology.  The QNAP worked exceedingly well and have a great reputation as well but the Synology's UI is meant for guys like you and me who don't manage IT networks for a living.   They take the pain away.

[JLM]

JLM, I think you know way more than you give yourself credit for. I always enjoy reading your posts...

But maybe a fresh take on your setup might just be a better pair of speakers?

Or just adding the SOtM 200 https://sotm-usa.com/products/sms-200-neo-network-player or the newer ultra version if you’re budget allows? (Hans B. on YouTube goes Gaga over it).

In defense of Roon, I know so much praise has been heaped upon it that a first impression might leave one asking “what’s so great about it?”, but give it time and you'll find it absolutely wonderful for managing your music and discovering new/old stuff with Tidal.  Perhaps pay the yearly price of $119 along with Tidal $20/mo.

Then it’s only a “dollar a day” for a brilliant way to search and play! 

JD

Better pair of speakers?? Them's fighting words!!  The JBL 708P's are reference studio monitors ($4000/pair USD MSRP) and I like them a lot.

Viewed Han's YouTubes on the Ultra Neo, Ultra, and 200 players, very impressive.  Could I just plug a HD into it and use it with Roon? 

[JLM]

JoshK,

You're explanation is way over my head and seems uber complicated.  It makes me want to stay with my MacBook Air, iTunes, and 10ft USB cable.

Yes, if speakers/room don't change room/speaker EQ (DSP) should be a one time setup. 

I'm just looking for a one box plug and play solution for better SQ.  Is that much to ask? 

[Phil A]

JoshK,

You're explanation is way over my head and seems uber complicated.  It makes me want to stay with my MacBook Air, iTunes, and 10ft USB cable.

Yes, if speakers/room don't change room/speaker EQ (DSP) should be a one time setup. 

I'm just looking for a one box plug and play solution for better SQ.  Is that much to ask?

Don't know anything about this but is this what you are looking for?  https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/arc2/

[artur9]

How about  https://volumio.org/product/nanosound-player-classic/ or the Premio player?

[Jonathon Janusz]

JoshK,

You're explanation is way over my head and seems uber complicated.  It makes me want to stay with my MacBook Air, iTunes, and 10ft USB cable.

Yes, if speakers/room don't change room/speaker EQ (DSP) should be a one time setup. 

I'm just looking for a one box plug and play solution for better SQ.  Is that much to ask?

In Josh's case, a NAS (Network Attached Storage, just tech jargon for "dedicated computer with hard drives in it that plugs in to a network to share stuff from") and a tablet (I'm guessing ipad because he's using the Lumin app) for controls (to tell the DAC what to read from the NAS) is all he's got going other than his DAC (which gets the music from the NAS and into the speakers).  This is the same box count you have now, but adds a tablet for controls (this is assuming your DAC can do what his does - get the music from the NAS and make the playback happen).  Think of Josh's setup as if you took your Macbook, left it always on and set it on your equipment rack, and then ran it remotely from an ipad instead of on your lap with a long USB cable attached.

What you have now puts the music storage, control panel, and player in one box (your Mac) and from there send it out to your DAC to feed the speakers (in this case, the DAC is being fed from your Mac instead of like Josh being fed from the NAS (remember, all NAS is, is a techy way of saying in this case "where my music is stored and served up from".

I thought I saw Innuos (mentioned earlier) was in a few rooms at this years' RMAF and Axpona.  I haven't heard it, but if one of their servers made it into Dan's (Modwright) and Lou's (Daedalus) room, considering I had up to now never read a server finding its way into their room, I would give Innuos a good long look if I were in the market for a new server (I'm still like you running from a Mac as a all-in-one server/storage).  I know you mentioned the Zenith was out of your price range, but I thought I remembered reading the newest Zen series server from Innuos was the one making the rounds at the shows, and the Zen servers are more in line price-wise with the others you mentioned were in the ballpark.  The only change you would make in going to one of these is that you would still need another gadget of some kind (tablet, or I think Innuos's interface is a webpage, so your laptop over WiFi might work?) to control it.  It is basically a fancy version of Josh's setup with CD ripping and easy music management built-in.

I read HAL chime in earlier in the thread, and going with one of his servers would be a similar setup as the Innuos servers, because all the storage and music serving (and in HAL's case with a keyboard and mouse the playback controls) would all be in one box as well.

I think the rub in all this for you is that (although some would say all of these would be an upgrade because iTunes "isn't good") all of these options might end up being a lateral move in various directions instead of an across-the-board no-questions upgrade, and in all cases you're having to add a gadget to do the control functions instead of running the controls straight from the one-box solution.  A dedicated player with a big screen and a traditional remote might be a way to go, but then I'd worry you are getting into big money to get a noticeable sound quality improvement from what you've got.

I know I expanded Josh's explanation into even more words on the screen, but I hope I helped it make more sense.

...and for what it is worth, I'm with you on this.  I'd like to get my music system off of my everyday workhorse Mac but I too haven't been able to justify adding a bunch of extra stuff just to make that happen.

Jon


[Edited to add: Thinking about HAL, without getting into the tech jargon, I wonder if he could build a flavor of his server into a small laptop/netbook that would get you where you want to go (all in one just like your Mac).  I don't know if you'd want to still string a USB cable to your system or (if your DAC can do it) go over a wired/WiFi network connection, but just another thought.]

[JoshK]

JoshK,

You're explanation is way over my head and seems uber complicated.  It makes me want to stay with my MacBook Air, iTunes, and 10ft USB cable.

Yes, if speakers/room don't change room/speaker EQ (DSP) should be a one time setup. 

I'm just looking for a one box plug and play solution for better SQ.  Is that much to ask? 

I apologize for that.  You know when you learn something it is hard to remember how to explain it another way?   Anyway, Jon's post explained it in very simple terms.  In my case it seems like a lot of steps, but almost all of those steps are the same as adding an App to your Macbook or phone.    The one point about having a "NAS" is that I can control playback from my laptop (like you would with your Macbook), my phone or my preferred tablet (my Ipad died, so I use Lumin on a Huawei tablet) via what ever app I wish to provide the streams (usually Lumin from NAS, or Spotify to stream from internet for me). 

When it comes to "upgraded sound quality" consider me a skeptic.   I can see appreciate maybe some differences between lossy and lossless but even then I bet that noone here could statistically tell the difference in a true blind test.  So for me it is more a matter of convenience; which apps and playback provide ease of use, great UI, features that I want to use, etc.   I mentioned my solution because if you have a very large music collection ripped to hard-drives as do I, then security of that data is very important!   It was a major PITA to rip all that music to HDs and I sure as hell don't want to do it again even if I have the disks. 

P.S. I just looked it up and the Directstream Jr. has the same Bridge II that the Sr has (what I have).  So it will work beautifully for you as well.   Instead (or also) of a USB cord into your DAC, you plug an Ethernet cable into your DAC and from there into your router.  Any device with harddrives with your music on it that are also plugged into that router can now "talk" to eachother.   The Lumin app (on your tablet, phone, etc) is basically controlling that conversation, the MC.   Once you try it once and see how it works, you will be thrilled to know that some other apps like Spotify can "caste" to your DAC's ethernet directly as well very simply.

[JLM]

Don't know anything about this but is this what you are looking for?  https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/arc2/

Looks similar to REW (freeware) or Dirac Live (friendly but less adaptable).

[JLM]

How about  https://volumio.org/product/nanosound-player-classic/ or the Premio player?

Looks too cheap to provide a step up from my MacBook.

[aldcoll]

Looks too cheap to provide a step up from my MacBook.

Spoken like a true Audiophile

I have had a couple of different  Pi players in my setup and you would be amazed the sound out of what looks like a cracker box.

If it would help I could put some wood grain on the box and spray paint the connectors a shade of Gold.

Just kidding but give a Pi a try.  It's shocking that something that costs less then one of the cables hooked to it might actually sound good.  And I have one as a back up just in case.

Alan

[JohnR]

Maybe look into these: http://www.salkstream.com

[Phil A]

Looks similar to REW (freeware) or Dirac Live (friendly but less adaptable).

Some of the playback software out there also has options for DSP such as - https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSP

[JDoyle]

Better pair of speakers?? Them's fighting words!!  The JBL 708P's are reference studio monitors ($4000/pair USD MSRP) and I like them a lot.

Viewed Han's YouTubes on the Ultra Neo, Ultra, and 200 players, very impressive.  Could I just plug a HD into it and use it with Roon?

  Sorry, I fired from the hip without looking up your model... but, hey, there’s always a better speaker 

The SOtM is a Roon Endpoint, you’ll still need a server to run the Roon core, but that could be the MB. Lotsa stuff over on CA about the SOtM 200.  I’m considering adding it to my system (Salkstream III, Benchmark DAC3)

JD

[JoshK]

His DAC can be a Roon endpoint as I understand it, so why the need for yet another box?

[JDoyle]

His DAC can be a Roon endpoint as I understand it, so why the need for yet another box?

He’s looking for an improvement and this device looks promising 

https://youtu.be/nCoFIdPLcUk

JD