Updated Line force (Super LS? )

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nrenter

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Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #100 on: 22 Jun 2019, 11:00 pm »
I'm probably going to get flamed for this comment, but it comes from a place of love...

I love the lines of the Super LF...
I love the lines of the OB Sub cabinet...
I love the lines of the plate amp frame...

...but I'm not sure I'm in love when seeing them all together because I don't think they look like they're all part of the same design style. For example, the bases of the Super LFs are very different than those on the subs (and the plate amp frames don't really have a "base"). The Super LF's have a design element not found on the sub (or plate frames) - a curve on the top back of the wing). Same thing on plate amp frames - diagonal slots. The subs have an extra top plate to match the base (a design element not found anywhere else). The subs and plate amp boxes are "boxy" and the Super LFs are angled, fluid, and open. Yes, I know they're each designed by form-follows-function, but...

Just throwing this out there for consideration if you ever choose to revisit the aesthetics. I'm a bit OCD when it comes to symmetry and consistancy.

Captainhemo

Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #101 on: 24 Jun 2019, 03:45 am »
Hey 
No, no  one  will flame  you  for  this. Totally  understand and appreciate  your  comments  but,  we have to make these some what  suitable  for   "99%" of the folks buying them and  who have  a multitude of different   setups they are  combining them with.

All your points are valid for someone wanting  to  shell out for a  one off pair  or  set of custom cabinets but if we had done ,  say the subs to perfectly match  the  Super Ls's,  then    what happens to the  guys  who   are  using them  to   cover the bottom end with something  different  ?     Same as the  amp  boxes,  the  slots  are there to provide some ventalation...  Yes, we could have done  it with say  holes, or multiple sized holes in some  sort of pattern but  is everyone  going  to want that  ?    One  size  never  fits  all and I'm pretty  sure  you  understand  that..   everything  requires  modeling and programming which  can  addup  to significant time  and   cost.  so far, we've managed to keep these  reasonably priced  and   there fore  are available for   a  lot of  people who couldn't otherwise have acces to  CNC'd   flat packs.

If someone wants   say a  custom   one off set  that  all  basically match,  that is not  an issue  bujt  they need to be prepared   to deal with associated  costs.

And,  with regards to  the rear    rounded  top conrner of the  Super  LS,  that    feature is pretty  common  .... the entire  NX  line   has it, the   new super Mini's  etc.  I've  been trying to come up with  a  way to    incorportate it nto the sujbs  as I think it would  be something  that  would  "fly"  with  everyone...  just  not  as easy  as it looks  !!

jay

mlundy57

Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #102 on: 24 Jun 2019, 05:16 am »
Hey 
No, no  one  will flame  you  for  this. Totally  understand and appreciate  your  comments  but,  we have to make these some what  suitable  for   "99%" of the folks buying them and  who have  a multitude of different   setups they are  combining them with.

All your points are valid for someone wanting  to  shell out for a  one off pair  or  set of custom cabinets but if we had done ,  say the subs to perfectly match  the  Super Ls's,  then    what happens to the  guys  who   are  using them  to   cover the bottom end with something  different  ?     Same as the  amp  boxes,  the  slots  are there to provide some ventalation...  Yes, we could have done  it with say  holes, or multiple sized holes in some  sort of pattern but  is everyone  going  to want that  ?    One  size  never  fits  all and I'm pretty  sure  you  understand  that..   everything  requires  modeling and programming which  can  addup  to significant time  and   cost.  so far, we've managed to keep these  reasonably priced  and   there fore  are available for   a  lot of  people who couldn't otherwise have acces to  CNC'd   flat packs.

If someone wants   say a  custom   one off set  that  all  basically match,  that is not  an issue  bujt  they need to be prepared   to deal with associated  costs.

And,  with regards to  the rear    rounded  top conrner of the  Super  LS,  that    feature is pretty  common  .... the entire  NX  line   has it, the   new super Mini's  etc.  I've  been trying to come up with  a  way to    incorportate it nto the sujbs  as I think it would  be something  that  would  "fly"  with  everyone...  just  not  as easy  as it looks  !!

jay

Rounding over in multiple adjacent planes and/or slopping can end up limiting finishing options to paint or Dura-Tex. Veneer cannot be rolled over more than two planes and not everybody wants fully painted speakers

Mike

Captainhemo

Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #103 on: 24 Jun 2019, 04:49 pm »
I believe the poster above was referring to the   rear  upper corner radius onthe Lf/NX/Super Mini's  etc and  then the subs are  subs don't   have the same .

And yeah,    the roundovers on the  edges can make things  difficult which is why all our cabinets come  with  90 degree  cuts,  we ad the roundovers or other  features  if customers  request them  ..

Super  LS is te  exception... everything  has  a radius on it  including all edges on  the bases.

jay

nrenter

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Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #104 on: 25 Jun 2019, 01:21 am »
I think if I designed my dream set, I’d go with a candy apple red with matte black bases. I’d square the radius in the top wing. I’d used the same base on the speakers that’s on the subs - a simple slab. I’d remove the extra top plate on the subs. Not sure what I’d do with the plate amps. Maybe a candy box with a matte slab base (same style as the subs, just smaller), w/ vertical vent slots on the back side. It’s fun to dream.

Thanks for indulging my thoughts!

Captainhemo

Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #105 on: 25 Jun 2019, 03:14 am »
Always good to dream  !!  I'm still dreaming  of hearing these  at some point, this pair is   off to danny   for final assembly  then off to the customer.

Those bases  were  designed to  lift the speaker   up  approx  5.5 "
LOL, and that upper  corner radius... leaned both  ways with  that, it was  finally decided to  put it in .
Maybe  at  some point  we'll have it  as an option  ... who  knows  !

House of Kolor,  Kany's   and translucents are    their specialty and that is all our  high end  guy sprays.

Plesent dreams  :)

jay

scararabe

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Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #106 on: 27 Jun 2019, 11:57 am »
Hi,
You have already explained that the cutoff frequency between the Neo10 and the servo sub was 180 hz and that between Neo10 and Neo3 was 1800 hz with a low slope.
Can you specify the slope of these cuts?
Have you tried active filtering solutions with lower and steeper slopes?

S Clark

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  • measurement? We don't need no stinkin measurement
Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #107 on: 27 Jun 2019, 01:55 pm »
Hi,
You have already explained that the cutoff frequency between the Neo10 and the servo sub was 180 hz and that between Neo10 and Neo3 was 1800 hz with a low slope.
Can you specify the slope of these cuts?
Have you tried active filtering solutions with lower and steeper slopes?
I don't think most understand the pure amount of commitment it takes to bring such a product to market. 
Danny has discussed many times that he has yet to find an active crossover that sounds as good as a well designed passive.   I don't think most understand the extent of Danny's experience with these drivers.  Rich Hollis and I were there as Danny was doing the final tweaking of the crossover for this design.  No one, absolutely no one has the experience and expertise with these drivers that Danny has, and I dare say that includes the manufacturer.  His painstaking commitment to detail, accuracy, and finally musicality of his designs is at the very top of his profession.  You might find an alternative active crossover that would suit you well, but your likelihood of improvement is low. 

Tyson

Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #108 on: 27 Jun 2019, 02:54 pm »
Hi,
You have already explained that the cutoff frequency between the Neo10 and the servo sub was 180 hz and that between Neo10 and Neo3 was 1800 hz with a low slope.
Can you specify the slope of these cuts?
Have you tried active filtering solutions with lower and steeper slopes?

Seriously?  The whole point of having a kit is so people will buy it and compensate the designers/creators for their work.  Giving away all the information re: crossover design completely undercuts their ability to be compensated for their work. 

mlundy57

Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #109 on: 27 Jun 2019, 03:02 pm »
Hi,
You have already explained that the cutoff frequency between the Neo10 and the servo sub was 180 hz and that between Neo10 and Neo3 was 1800 hz with a low slope.
Can you specify the slope of these cuts?
Have you tried active filtering solutions with lower and steeper slopes?

The subwoofer amp has a 12dB per octave slope with the option for an additional 12dB per octave starting at 50Hz or 80Hz. The phase control is also on the sub amp.

The midrange is what it is based on the particular design. The goal is to adjust the subs to match the mids.

Mike

scararabe

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Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #110 on: 27 Jun 2019, 05:20 pm »
Seriously?  The whole point of having a kit is so people will buy it and compensate the designers/creators for their work.  Giving away all the information re: crossover design completely undercuts their ability to be compensated for their work.

If the creator of this speaker had wanted to keep his filter completely secret, he would never have spoken about cutoff frequencies.
I think that the confidentiality of the diagrams and components of the filter guarantees the designer that it will not be copied.

In my speaker I use in a baffle plane a B & G RD75 and 4 Precision device 18 inch baffle in H.
Active filtering is done by convolution with phase correction of the filtering.

The purpose of my message is to exchange ideas about the design of our speaker.

Danny Richie

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Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #111 on: 27 Jun 2019, 06:23 pm »
Hi,
You have already explained that the cutoff frequency between the Neo10 and the servo sub was 180 hz and that between Neo10 and Neo3 was 1800 hz with a low slope.
Can you specify the slope of these cuts?
Have you tried active filtering solutions with lower and steeper slopes?

That's okay. I am not offended by your questions.

I'll show you and everyone the actual and real acoustic slopes and measurements on these.

Now a line source has to be measured and tested quite differently than a point source design. The mic has to be further away and floor and ceiling reflections have to be accounted for. So the measurements have to include an in room response. And the room as to be well treated and well known to not skew the data or cause a misinterpretation of the data.

So the squiggles in the measurements are because of the room reflections. The dead drop at 20kHz is also common with any speaker in this room.

And I have to look at the responses of each speaker in both sides of the room.

Here is the speaker on the left side of the room.



And here is the one on the right.



Note too that the scaling of the graph is a 5db scale. So this is an incredibly smooth response for a room measurement.

So the slope and roll off can be easily seen.

Electronic crossovers really don't apply and can't really be made to work very well with line sources. The reason is that the output of a line source is skewed to the lower end. Lower wavelengths couple and add gain while the upper wavelengths do not. So the crossover is much more than just a crossover. It is a filter designed to make a linear response out of an acoustic response that is not linear. That means the filters is manipulating the response of each group of drivers within their pass band. Textbook filters don't do that.

And most active filters put too much in the signal path that degrades the signal. And you have to deal with yet another power supply, A/C noise levels, more power cables, conditioning.... op amps in the signal path, more connections, additional cables, and on and on...

scararabe

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Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #112 on: 27 Jun 2019, 07:20 pm »
Quote
Electronic crossovers really don't apply and can't really be made to work very well with line sources. The reason is that the output of a line source is skewed to the lower end. Lower wavelengths couple and add gain while the upper wavelengths do not. So the crossover is much more than just a crossover. It is a filter designed to make a linear response out of an acoustic response that is not linear. That means the filters is manipulating the response of each group of drivers within their pass band. Textbook filters don't do that.

It seems that your design work for this filter is to linearize the response of the Neo3 on 1 octave before applying 12 db/oct filter.

Danny Richie

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Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #113 on: 27 Jun 2019, 07:38 pm »
It seems that your design work for this filter is to linearize the response of the Neo3 on 1 octave before applying 12 db/oct filter.

Well, sort of. As frequency decreases the output couples and additional gain is produced. So the filter has to be designed to lay that response over into a flat line, but then use and allow the natural roll off of the drivers. Crossover points are not picked. The response of the drivers dictate it.

scararabe

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Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #114 on: 27 Jun 2019, 08:08 pm »
indeed, the response curve of the Neo3 seems to descend steadily at 800 hz, a little over an octave higher than this to determine the crossover point of the filter at 1800 hz.

mdl62

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Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #115 on: 29 Jun 2019, 03:56 am »
for the less knowledgeable (me) , in Danny we trust.

Captainhemo

Re: Updated Line force (Super LS? )
« Reply #116 on: 29 Jun 2019, 05:39 pm »
indeed, the response curve of the Neo3 seems to descend steadily at 800 hz, a little over an octave higher than this to determine the crossover point of the filter at 1800 hz.

Danny was talking about the natural roll off of the Neo 10's  and  then crossing to the  subs

jay