[Steve]

Before we get too comfortable with our conclusions about cables, ICs, power cords, tubes, solid-state, wall sockets, cable lifters, analog/digital, and other audiophile topics of contention, we might want to really consider the implications of "Laurel/Yanni."

My first thought was, "So what?" Now I'm thinking, "Wow!"

https://www.spin.com/2018/05/how-to-hear-yanny-laurel/

With EQ mods:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4KTWCuL5Vs

Analyzed by Doug Johnson Productions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUawekViYpk

EQ Demo makes it easy to hear the difference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo1RPoPf7-M

I already performed a simple analysis, and I found that it was simply based on the quality of our hearing across the audio spectrum. Nothing magical. Adjusting for predominately high frequency perception heard one word while those whose low frequencies dominated heard the other word because one name contains more high frequency information while the other does not.

Of course cochlea fatigue becomes a factor, with losing highs easier if one repeatedly does back and forths in one setting. But then that is manipulating our perception.

This test was similar to the dress "test" which involved relative weaknesses in one's individual sight spectrum; this audio test involved weaknesses in the audio spectrum. As such, it has virtually nothing to do with this string.

cheers

steve

[FullRangeMan]

Before we get too comfortable with our conclusions about cables, ICs, power cords, tubes, solid-state, wall sockets, cable lifters, analog/digital, and other audiophile topics of contention, we might want to really consider the implications of "Laurel/Yanni."

My first thought was, "So what?" Now I'm thinking, "Wow!"

https://www.spin.com/2018/05/how-to-hear-yanny-laurel/

With EQ mods:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4KTWCuL5Vs

Analyzed by Doug Johnson Productions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUawekViYpk

EQ Demo makes it easy to hear the difference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo1RPoPf7-M

What are you smoking man? These words sound too different to be confused.
I do not believe a normal person confuses this two words, in all videos the difference at these words is very clear audible and my ears are not teenagers.
I though it was a joke...

[planet10]

...we might want to really consider the implications of "Laurel/Yanni.”...

While it has been shown that altering the frequency balance can sometimes alter the perception of the clip, i believe it is more complicated than that.

What we have is a digital clip where a huge amount of information has been removed (ie it is heavily compressed). The brain fills in the missing bits so that it can be understood. But this sample has so much missing info, that it is easy for the brain to supply differing information to fill in th emissing bits yielding a different sound.

This not only happens with poor digital signals, it is also part of the whole hifi experience. A better system will supply more information, and the brain will not have to work as hard. That the brain does this is one of the reasons why it can be so hard to make valid quality judgements. If one could directly measure how hard the brain was working at filling in the missing information one would have a non-biased metric for system quality (of course there is still a balance and differences in the kind of information being filled in). The less info the brian has to supply, the more relaxed a listening session can be.

dave

[DaveC113]

Interesting thread!

IME everyone has some amount of truth in their thoughts, but the subject is too complex and variable to make generalizations. A few of my own thoughts...

- Higher damping factor is only better for some systems, in others that use drivers with stiff suspensions high DF amps actually don't work at all. The original 4.5" Omega hemp driver was an example, along with many older single drivers designed to be used with SET amps. Amps with low output impedance simply don't work and in this case a small gauge speaker cable can indeed make things far better. Steve's explanation here is very good imo. Most modern wideband drivers have moved to very soft suspensions and often class D actually works well.

- Solid core wire doesn't always work, THROWBACK's example of a "whang" effect does happen sometimes. It sounds like a ringing, something is just off. If you want to experience this try 12g solid-core magnet wire, this produces the ringing effect very often.

- Stranded wire often isn't best either, it can add grain to tweets but is often better for bass.

- Litz wire is great IF it works. It doesn't always work. In some systems it will produce some sort of phase-shift effect that makes the highs sound soft and attenuated in a weird way.

- Geometry does matter a lot and in no case have I found separate runs for +/- or side-by-side runs either close together or spaced apart to work best.

Like all cables wire quality is key but there's so many factors, so much not defined, and so much variability in speaker cable applications it's difficult to predict results or say definitively what's best without far too much experimentation. Over time you can develop cables that work well in a broader range of applications but this is mostly driven by trial and error unfortunately.

[DaveC113]

While it has been shown that altering the frequency balance can sometimes alter the perception of the clip, i believe it is more complicated than that.

What we have is a digital clip where a huge amount of information has been removed (ie it is heavily compressed). The brain fills in the missing bits so that it can be understood. But this sample has so much missing info, that it is easy for the brain to supply differing information to fill in th emissing bits yielding a different sound.

This not only happens with poor digital signals, it is also part of the whole hifi experience. A better system will supply more information, and the brain will not have to work as hard. That the brain does this is one of the reasons why it can be so hard to make valid quality judgements. If one could directly measure how hard the brain was working at filling in the missing information one would have a non-biased metric for system quality (of course there is still a balance and differences in the kind of information being filled in). The less info the brian has to supply, the more relaxed a listening session can be.

dave

I'd agree, and add that lack of fatigue is also due to components NOT adding artifacts that overly stimulate the nervous system. Also, many things we find beneficial are due to adding missing information, especially extending decay that is truncated by recording and/or playback. This missing information that the brain expects to hear can be added back by vibrational feedback via tubes and components, room acoustics, vibrating speaker cabinets, specially made resonating devices added to the speakers or rooms, etc. as well as a playback system that is actually capable of reproducing fine detail, which is rare. IMO this is what makes the difference between a good system and one that is extraordinary. Even those that eschew the use of anything that is additive have systems that do just that whether they realize it or not, and without it their systems would not be nearly as enjoyable. Don't believe me? Put soft sorbothane under everything and see what results you get...

[charmerci]

I was going to settle on four 14g + two 22g wires per terminal but most of my music are somewhat harsh (rock and pop from the 70's just lots of old music but obviously more than those) and don't sound like Sheffield Labs' Dave Grusin Discovered Again, so I think I'll add another 14g wire then compare it again tomorrow with my braided cables.

[FullRangeMan]

most of my music are somewhat harsh (rock and pop from the 70's just lots of old music but obviously more than those) and don't sound like Sheffield Labs

So avoid use Silver, occ copper would be great.

[charmerci]

I compared the stranded vs. solid core (as above, six wires per terminal) and well, the differences aren't as great as I initially thought. However, the highs are still more forward - but not anymore harsh - and less veiled, there is more bass and on piano (on one recording) seemed more localized than diffuse. Still sounds better.


Whether I'll do any more comparing. Kind of doubt it, for now.

[AmpDesigner333]

My 2 cents....

I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated).  So, as usual, there are those making bold claims and broad statements with only hyperbole, conjecture, rumor, and opinion to back them up.  Here's the deal....  With a given resistance and reasonably low parasitics (true for pretty much any conventional wire type), there will be NO DIFFERENCE in the sound.  The placebo effect is very real, and some listeners want so much to believe that they fool themselves.  So, next time someone offers you something like "better wire", ask for specifications, measurements, and scientific data.  If they won't provide scientific proof, and they say anything like "you just need to hear it, and you'll understand", you're being swindled.

OK, I got that off my chest.  (:

Back to work.

[FullRangeMan]

I compared the stranded vs. solid core (as above, six wires per terminal) and well, the differences aren't as great as I initially thought. However, the highs are still more forward - but not anymore harsh - and less veiled, there is more bass and on piano (on one recording) seemed more localized than diffuse. Still sounds better.


Whether I'll do any more comparing. Kind of doubt it, for now.

I think six was too much, do you would test 4 wires?
(1 for bass and 2 or 3 for treble)

What was the diameter from your cable?
(the raw six cores diameter)

[THROWBACK]

[/quote]

My 2 cents....

I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated).  So, as usual, there are those making bold claims and broad statements with only hyperbole, conjecture, rumor, and opinion to back them up.  Here's the deal....  With a given resistance and reasonably low parasitics (true for pretty much any conventional wire type), there will be NO DIFFERENCE in the sound.  The placebo effect is very real, and some listeners want so much to believe that they fool themselves.  So, next time someone offers you something like "better wire", ask for specifications, measurements, and scientific data.  If they won't provide scientific proof, and they say anything like "you just need to hear it, and you'll understand", you're being swindled.

E pur si muove: Galileo

[Speedskater]

My 2 cents....
I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated). 
.....................................
OK, I got that off my chest.  (:
Back to work.

Yep, it comes down to total end-to-end resistance of the cable in respect to the loudspeaker's impedance curve.
In some special cases (like Apogee) it's the cable's impedance not resistance that matters.

[Early B.]

My 2 cents....

I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated).  So, as usual, there are those making bold claims and broad statements with only hyperbole, conjecture, rumor, and opinion to back them up.  Here's the deal....  With a given resistance and reasonably low parasitics (true for pretty much any conventional wire type), there will be NO DIFFERENCE in the sound.  The placebo effect is very real, and some listeners want so much to believe that they fool themselves.  So, next time someone offers you something like "better wire", ask for specifications, measurements, and scientific data.  If they won't provide scientific proof, and they say anything like "you just need to hear it, and you'll understand", you're being swindled.

OK, I got that off my chest.  (:

Back to work.

If our audio purchase decisions could be made by merely evaluating measurements, then an audiophile's life would be easy. Unfortunately, there are too many of us who have similar experiences that consistently defy measurements. Cables sound different, period. And those differences in sound aren't always attributed to measurements. Sure, there may be some placebo effect at work in some cases, but not likely in all cases.
     

[Speedskater]

If our audio purchase decisions could be made by merely evaluating measurements, then an audiophile's life would be easy. Unfortunately, there are too many of us who have similar experiences that consistently defy measurements. Cables sound different, period. And those differences in sound aren't always attributed to measurements. Sure, there may be some placebo effect at work in some cases, but not likely in all cases.       

Why do you rule out, ears only listening evaluations?

[twitch54]

My 2 cents....

I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated).  So, as usual, there are those making bold claims and broad statements with only hyperbole, conjecture, rumor, and opinion to back them up.  Here's the deal....  With a given resistance and reasonably low parasitics (true for pretty much any conventional wire type), there will be NO DIFFERENCE in the sound.  The placebo effect is very real, and some listeners want so much to believe that they fool themselves.  So, next time someone offers you something like "better wire", ask for specifications, measurements, and scientific data.  If they won't provide scientific proof, and they say anything like "you just need to hear it, and you'll understand", you're being swindled.

OK, I got that off my chest.  (:

Back to work.

agreed, but your '2 cents' is worth far more !

[planet10]

I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance ...

Sadly there is very little in audio that has been scientifically proven. To do a proper test is costly and needs to be well enuff documented so that it can be replicated.

I have been paying attention for over 40 years, and the only work that stands out is Kunchar’s work on temporal response showing that human’s have a time response recognition of less then 5µs. There are also experments that are half finished (ie done by one organization/person but never replicated). Those that stand out to me are Toole/Olive work on human preferences to loudspeaker performance (which whle very good, only studied a subset of the possible permutations) and Geddes work that shows that THD is a meaningless specification.

That last points out a significant flaw in many objectivists take on proof. One has to make a subjective assumption that the numbers are meaningful and the little evidence we have is that these assumptions ar efull of holes. On the other hand subjective quantifications on quality are fraught by lack of proper training (ie the 10,000 or so hrs of serious training needed to become an expert) and the many biases & illusions that can happen. ABX is often used to “prove” that DUTs are not different, but that is an invalid application of the test which is designed to only — with a high degree of assurance — show that 2 DUTs are different. A null test is only applicable to the listening session in which the test was performed and has no broader application.

To further complicate things, the transducers we use (i am talking about speakers for us at the listening end) are so crude that one can have 2 equally vaid loudspeakers where the set of compromises made by the designer are such that the speakers sound very different.

In the end the only thing that is important is whether one can sit down and be emotionally connected with the music. And that comes down to a personal set of criteria for each ear/brain/person.

dave

[Speedskater]

Sadly there is very little in audio that has been scientifically proven. To do a proper test is costly and needs to be well enuff documented so that it can be replicated.
....................................... ..................
dave

Everyday differences in audio are proven.
In fact the listening tests have gotten so sensitive, that these small differences arn't audible when listening to music.

[charmerci]

I think six was too much, do you would test 4 wires?
(1 for bass and 2 or 3 for treble)

What was the diameter from your cable?
(the raw six cores diameter)

If you read my posts, I've described them. Didn't like the two 22g + 1 14g. set up. (So that means this is done four times - two to the negative terminals and two to the positive terminals.)

[charmerci]

My 2 cents....

I have yet to read any PROOF, scientific or otherwise, that there is a significant (or even existent?) difference in the measured or perceived audio performance of various wire "styles" given the same electrical resistance (something EASILY measured, but almost never stated).  So, as usual, there are those making bold claims and broad statements with only hyperbole, conjecture, rumor, and opinion to back them up.  Here's the deal....  With a given resistance and reasonably low parasitics (true for pretty much any conventional wire type), there will be NO DIFFERENCE in the sound.  The placebo effect is very real, and some listeners want so much to believe that they fool themselves.  So, next time someone offers you something like "better wire", ask for specifications, measurements, and scientific data.  If they won't provide scientific proof, and they say anything like "you just need to hear it, and you'll understand", you're being swindled.

OK, I got that off my chest.  (:

Back to work.

Just want to say that for decades, I heard/read and believed that there were no differences in the way cables sounded. You know those crappy IC's that come with the BB Sony/Pioneer receivers? I used to use them. One time, I bought monoprice IC's. There was not supposed to be any sound differences in my mind - but it was pretty damn obvious that there was! That's what changed my mind.

[planet10]

Everyday differences in audio are proven.
In fact the listening tests have gotten so sensitive, that these small differences arn't audible when listening to music.

Examples of scientific tests?

I personally believe that the ear/brain is still the most sensitive test instrument available (and that many unproven differences exist), but it can be easily fooled so turning that into a valid scientific test is a real challenge.

dave